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Thread: Major revision of E1b1b page

  1. #1
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    6 out of 6 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow Major revision of E1b1b page

    I just want to let you know that I have revised almost the entire page on haplogroup E1b1b. I have added phylogenetic trees for E-V13 and E-M123 and rewritten separate history sections for V13, M81 and M123.
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    It is really not easy to figure out history of E-V13 but this is nice try. Thanks.
    Btw, I'm one of the E-V13 people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I just want to let you know that I have revised almost the entire page on haplogroup E1b1b. I have added phylogenetic trees for E-V13 and E-M123 and rewritten separate history sections for V13, M81 and M123.
    Please forgive this tag for attention, but I thought it would be interesting if you did a map of Celto-Germanic Y DNA, not least for my personal interest (which clearly is not enough to warrant the amount of effort you put into your maps), but also because it would fit very well into the red hair article (being a Celto-Germanic trait).

    Finally, and again I'm being asky, but for each Y DNA map (and combined Y DNA map), it would be interesting to know what the map gives as a hotspot, so for Germanic Y DNA Friesland may be the hotspot, if only by a percentage, but it would still be very interesting to know those details.

    Amazing page btw, but, and it may just be me, lots of pages don't fully load (e.g. the page containing all the Y DNA maps, it doesn't go past I2a2), whereas they do on archive.org

    Thanks, I'm quite new here btw

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Please forgive this tag for attention, but I thought it would be interesting if you did a map of Celto-Germanic Y DNA, not least for my personal interest (which clearly is not enough to warrant the amount of effort you put into your maps), but also because it would fit very well into the red hair article (being a Celto-Germanic trait).
    I did make maps for overall Celtic and Germanic Y-DNA.

    Amazing page btw, but, and it may just be me, lots of pages don't fully load (e.g. the page containing all the Y DNA maps, it doesn't go past I2a2), whereas they do on archive.org
    I have recently become aware that some pages didn't load well on Mac. I have found the reason (mobile Google ad code) and fixed it. Please try again. It should work now.

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    Great review, it's interesting to read the new E-V13 theory. I always wondered why it expanded so rapidly during the Bronze Age if it had been a neolithic (or mesolithic) haplogroup, yet it seems to be missing in most neolithic sites. The explanation that it expanded with the Indo-Europeans makes more sense. What remains to be seen is the origin of the different subclades, but I guess that will not happen unless more tests are done in Greece and the Balkans in general. It seems that most people from the Balkans are positive for CTS9320 (though more testing needs to be done)
    I am positive for CTS9320 as well, yet negative for all its known downstreams.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Great work Maciamo. some quick points i would like to highlight:

    1- In the E1b1b tree V6 and V92 were placed above Z830 while it should be placed below CTS11051 (E-V1515)
    2- The highest frequencies of E-M123 are observed in Jordanians from the Dead Sea (31%) not in Ethiopia
    2- M123 originated in Anatolia or Levant as per NG Genographic Project

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    Quote Originally Posted by GHAZI View Post
    Great work Maciamo. some quick points i would like to highlight:

    1- In the E1b1b tree V6 and V92 were placed above Z830 while it should be placed below CTS11051 (E-V1515)
    2- The highest frequencies of E-M123 are observed in Jordanians from the Dead Sea (31%) not in Ethiopia
    2- M123 originated in Anatolia or Levant as per NG Genographic Project
    Thanks! I have corrected this.

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    Something interesting got to my attention:
    ...it has been calculated that E-V13 emerged from E-M78 some 7,800 years ago, when Neolithic farmers were advancing into the Balkans and the Danubian basin. Furthermore, all the modern members of E-V13 descend from a common ancestor who lived approximately 5,500 years ago, and all of them also descend from a later common ancestor who carried the CTS5856 mutation. That ancestor would have lived about 4,100 years ago, during the Bronze Age. Almost immediately afterwards, CTS5856 split into six subclades, then branched off into even more subclades in the space of a few generations. In just a few centuries, that very minor E-V13 lineage had started an expansion process that would turn it into one of Europe's most widespread paternal lineages...
    All the dates in this paragraph here have some match with important climate data. The popping up of V13 at 7800 years is not far from the 8.2k event (Misox oscillation, Finse event) caused by the Gulfstream pump breakdown, the 5500 years are close to the 5.9k event (First Piora oscillation), which changed the overall weather pattern, desertificated the Sahara and forced people to move to the big river valleys, which initiated the building of big culture centers, and finally the 4.2k event, the big culture killer, which left traces almost everywhere in the Old World. All of them caused serious, sometimes long lasting droughts. While the first two may be just coincidence, the last one seems very revealing. Not only is it quite accurately at the same time, the sudden production of new subgroups in fast succession lets me think that this population was under severe environmental stress, causing the acceleration of the mutation rate and forcing the population to move.

    The fact that so many subgroups survived, may indicate that there was little competition, when they spread all over Europe. This may have been caused by a big decrease in population size throughout the whole subcontinent during this drought. The success of this small group over other contemporary ethnities may be either their lifestyle, some technological advantage or due to the possibility that they were one of the first to occupy deserted land.

    With a quick look at yfull.com's I saw some other subgroups which may have had a similar development around this time. The I1 subgroups Z63 and Z2337 (around L22) and the G2a2b-subgroup CTS 7045 (well, not knowing how successfull they got in spreading and population growth...)

    I'm not sure if I want to share the opinion that V13 was riding piggyback on the Indoeuropean people to spread, because principially it was not necessary in an empty territory. In addition, they seem to be most prominent, where R1a and R1b are relatively moderate, and the match between their maps is not so good. I may be inclined to believe that this was a separate expansion.

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    Great update Efforts Maciamo.

    Well commented Ghazi.

    God bless both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    All the dates in this paragraph here have some match with important climate data. The popping up of V13 at 7800 years is not far from the 8.2k event (Misox oscillation, Finse event) caused by the Gulfstream pump breakdown, the 5500 years are close to the 5.9k event (First Piora oscillation), which changed the overall weather pattern, desertificated the Sahara and forced people to move to the big river valleys, which initiated the building of big culture centers, and finally the 4.2k event, the big culture killer, which left traces almost everywhere in the Old World.
    I once read the Nile didn't flow all the way north until 13000 years ago. Desertification of the Sahara would also have forced people into Europe. There's also the Sea People climate event.

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    Good read about E-M81, thanks a lot!

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    Map of ancient samples of DE haplogroup(edit also just E). Might be relevant here:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...1129014636&z=4
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