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Thread: Mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight

    I think Maciano has already seen this paper , but not the others

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...enetic_insight

    Objectives Analysis of human genetic variation in mountain communities can shed light on the peopling of mountainous regions, perhaps revealing whether the remote geographic location spared them from outside invasion and preserved their gene pool from admixture. In this study, we created a model to assess genetic traces of historical events by reconstructing the paternal and maternal genetic history of seven small mountain villages in inland valleys of Central Italy.Methods The communities were selected for their geographic isolation, attested biodemographic stability, and documented history prior to the Roman conquest. We studied the genetic structure by analyzing two hypervariable segments (HVS-I and HVS-II) of the mtDNA D-loop and several informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) of the mtDNA coding region in 346 individuals, in addition to 17 short tandem repeats (STRs) and Y-chromosome SNPs in 237 male individuals.ResultsFor both uniparental markers, most of the haplogroups originated in Western Europe while some Near Eastern haplogroups were identified at low frequencies. However, there was an evident genetic similarity between the Central Italian samples and Near Eastern populations mainly in the male genetic pool.Conclusions The samples highlight an overall European genetic pattern both for mtDNA and Y chromosome. Notwithstanding this scenario, Y chromosome haplogroup Q, a common paternal lineage in Central/Western Asia but almost Europe-wide absent, was found, suggesting that Central Italy could have hosted a settlement from Anatolia that might be supported by cultural, topographic and genetic evidence. Am. J. Hum. Biol., 2015. © 2015 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

    Paper is 18 months old
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    Thank you Sile, I was not aware about this paper. There are some high percentages for T, G2a and I1.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    R1b 24% - typical for Italy.

    J2a and G2a more than 10%, that's pretty interesting (Etruscans?)


    E1b (17-18%), high percent even for Italy.

    6% of J2b2 M241 - connection with Balkans during the history?

    I1 13%

    I2a Dinaric lower than 1%, same as R1a (1.27%).

    T is quite common for Central Italy according to Eupedia maps, 5,49%.


    There are few G1, J1, Q.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Could it be that some also came with Bulgar/Avar horsemen? They settled in Molise in the 7th century and was reported by Paul the Deacon in the 8th century and he said "although they speak Latin, they have not forgotten the use of their own language." My family is from Molise near Bojano they have found in early medieval graves several warriors buried with their horses alongside their Lombard hosts.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    There is a broad range of R1b percentages in Italy, with many areas in the north and Tuscany having 50% and over so I don't see how 24% can be "typical for Italy".
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    Also, for R1b as for J2a and the other uniparental markers, there is wide variation in the frequencies in these villages, typical of highly drifted areas, so averages are not very informative.

    TABLE 2. The number of individuals and haplogroup frequencies in percentage (in brackets) of Y chromosome in the samples from the seven villages
    Ydna of mountain communities in Central Italy.jpg

    Click on the above to enlarge.

    The chart illustrates the difficulties with these kinds of studies. It's of course very interesting to get data on such isolated communities. Given that my father's family was located there for six hundred or more years, I certainly wish that Cavalli-Sforza would release all the samples he took in the northern Emilian Apennines.

    That doesn't mean that uniparental markers from such isolated communities are necessarily very informative about even the uniparental modern distribution in the general area. Interpretation in terms of the genetic past is also problematical.

    From the paper:
    ""Intrapopulation genetic indices based on Y chromosome profiles are reported in Table 4. The Y chromosome gene diversity in these seven villages, because of their relative isolation, is lower than that found in other Italian and Mediterranean samples."

    The other major problem with this paper, the lack of subclade resolution, is rather inexplicable in a paper that's only about eighteen months old. What kind of E1b1b is present here? What kind of G2a is present? What kind of R1b? The migrations of various subclades have been tied to very different areas and time periods. Without this kind of resolution I'm perplexed as to how anyone is supposed to tie these samples to any particular ancient group.


    For example, the area in question, which is between Lazio and the Abruzzi, has Neolithic roots, and Italic roots as well.

    ". Indeed, archeological evidence indicates that the region has been inhabited since at least the Neolithic period, as attested by human remains found in the Mora Cavorso cave near Jenne and dating to 6,405 6 35 BP (L3504), 1r calibrated 5,472–5,314 BC (Rolfo et al., 2009). During the Pre-Roman period, the area between Latium and Abruzzi was inhabited by ancient Italic peoples belonging to Osco-Umbrian or Sabellian populations."

    It would be tempting to think perhaps this indicates there was a lot of E1b1b in Neolithic Italian populations, but what if it's E-M81? Even if we assume the R1b is from the Italics, and not from other men from other migrations who moved up into these areas, what kind of R1b is it?

    The mtDna, although mostly unremarkable, does have some higher concentrations of U2d, ROa, and HV, but again it's extremely variable. U2d is present in only one village. Most of the HV is from one village. ROa, at least, is in three villages. This is founder effect writ large. Plus, without whole mtDna analysis, the type that was done for mtDna U6, for example, how are we supposed to discern when it arrived and precisely from where? As I pointed out on another thread, ROa has been in Europe for a long time, as has HV.

    Isolated areas like mountain and island villages throw up lots of "rare" mtDna. I don't know how valuable it is for drawing huge generalities.

    There isn't much on U2d. This old paper links it to "medieval migrations of nomadic tribes from the Caucasus and eastern Europe to central Europe."
    http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.3378/15..._pub%3Dpubmed&

    I don't know what they mean by that. Are they talking about groups like the Huns, or the Germanic tribes in general? Does anyone have access to the full paper? It is interesting that there's more U5a than there is U4d (15 versus 10) in these villages, and there's 8 U5b as well.

    This is the U2d information from Maciamo's page here:
    "
    • U2d : found in Europe and Central Asia
      • U2d1 : found in Central Asia
      • U2d2 : found in the Balkans and Central Asia
      • U2d3 : found in the Caucasus



    This is what I found about Jenne, the town with all the U2d.

    "Nel 1079 circa, Ildemondo dei Conti, comandante di una pattuglia di normanni e di longobardi assediò Jenne ove impose la resa l'invasore, Ildemondo si riappropriò così di Jenne."

    There's nothing else of note I could find, except what the paper mentions, which is the ties to Italic tribes. There's nothing about any settlements of medieval tribes from eastern Europe or the Caucasus.

    Last edited by Angela; 25-01-17 at 14:24. Reason: Fix attachment


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    More Italian mtDNA has been needed for a while. This study tested many mtDNA SNPs, it isn't low quaility like their Y DNA testing. Once I had the data from this study I'll have over 600 samples from Italy.

    Edit: BTW, because these are mountain communities their mtDNA/Y DNA is probably riddled with founder effects. I can already see their mtDNA is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Thank you Sile, I was not aware about this paper. There are some high percentages for T, G2a and I1.
    Yes there are high percentages ..............most of the sites now sit in the national park

    The T looks like only from the L162 line ...................could be sabine/sabellic people ..............who are a mystery on when they arrived in Italy ( it was before the Romans though )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantische View Post
    R1b 24% - typical for Italy.

    J2a and G2a more than 10%, that's pretty interesting (Etruscans?)


    E1b (17-18%), high percent even for Italy.

    6% of J2b2 M241 - connection with Balkans during the history?

    I1 13%

    I2a Dinaric lower than 1%, same as R1a (1.27%).

    T is quite common for Central Italy according to Eupedia maps, 5,49%.


    There are few G1, J1, Q.

    The brackets in table 2 indicate the percentages .............how did you work out your percentages ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    More Italian mtDNA has been needed for a while. This study tested many mtDNA SNPs, it isn't low quaility like their Y DNA testing. Once I had the data from this study I'll have over 600 samples from Italy.

    Edit: BTW, because these are mountain communities their mtDNA/Y DNA is probably riddled with founder effects. I can already see their mtDNA is.
    the mtdna of the paper was commenced in 2010 ...........see original mtdna part below

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Central_Italy

    more info might be in this part for mtdna

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Looks like your memory is failing, Sile. You posted the same study two years ago and I made a detailed analysis of it.
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    Well, considering it's so bad maybe it's a good thing if everyone forgets about it. :)

    You did a great job on that paper, Maciamo. Someone should send the authors a copy. They need the constructive criticism.

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    Old study now
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Looks like your memory is failing, Sile. You posted the same study two years ago and I made a detailed analysis of it.
    there is more in depth information from their mtdna side in their paper on post#9 ................have you looked at that one?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Almost all Eupedia maps show 30-10% of R1b Starting from central Italy, and into the South. So yes, for these regions, it is typical.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    Precision of language matters. The statement was that 24% R1b is typical for Italy.

    A reader might take from that phrase that 24% R1b is typical for Italy as a whole, which of course is incorrect.

    The correct, clear, phraseology would be that 24% R1b is typical of some areas in Italy.


    Bottom line, though, such a bad study really doesn't deserve this much attention once, much less twice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There is a broad range of R1b percentages in Italy, with many areas in the north and Tuscany having 50% and over so I don't see how 24% can be "typical for Italy".
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    Also, for R1b as for J2a and the other uniparental markers, there is wide variation in the frequencies in these villages, typical of highly drifted areas, so averages are not very informative.

    TABLE 2. The number of individuals and haplogroup frequencies in percentage (in brackets) of Y chromosome in the samples from the seven villages
    Ydna of mountain communities in Central Italy.jpg

    Click on the above to enlarge.

    The chart illustrates the difficulties with these kinds of studies. It's of course very interesting to get data on such isolated communities. Given that my father's family was located there for six hundred or more years, I certainly wish that Cavalli-Sforza would release all the samples he took in the northern Emilian Apennines.

    That doesn't mean that uniparental markers from such isolated communities are necessarily very informative about even the uniparental modern distribution in the general area. Interpretation in terms of the genetic past is also problematical.

    From the paper:
    ""Intrapopulation genetic indices based on Y chromosome profiles are reported in Table 4. The Y chromosome gene diversity in these seven villages, because of their relative isolation, is lower than that found in other Italian and Mediterranean samples."

    The other major problem with this paper, the lack of subclade resolution, is rather inexplicable in a paper that's only about eighteen months old. What kind of E1b1b is present here? What kind of G2a is present? What kind of R1b? The migrations of various subclades have been tied to very different areas and time periods. Without this kind of resolution I'm perplexed as to how anyone is supposed to tie these samples to any particular ancient group.


    For example, the area in question, which is between Lazio and the Abruzzi, has Neolithic roots, and Italic roots as well.

    ". Indeed, archeological evidence indicates that the region has been inhabited since at least the Neolithic period, as attested by human remains found in the Mora Cavorso cave near Jenne and dating to 6,405 6 35 BP (L3504), 1r calibrated 5,472–5,314 BC (Rolfo et al., 2009). During the Pre-Roman period, the area between Latium and Abruzzi was inhabited by ancient Italic peoples belonging to Osco-Umbrian or Sabellian populations."

    It would be tempting to think perhaps this indicates there was a lot of E1b1b in Neolithic Italian populations, but what if it's E-M81? Even if we assume the R1b is from the Italics, and not from other men from other migrations who moved up into these areas, what kind of R1b is it?

    The mtDna, although mostly unremarkable, does have some higher concentrations of U2d, ROa, and HV, but again it's extremely variable. U2d is present in only one village. Most of the HV is from one village. ROa, at least, is in three villages. This is founder effect writ large. Plus, without whole mtDna analysis, the type that was done for mtDna U6, for example, how are we supposed to discern when it arrived and precisely from where? As I pointed out on another thread, ROa has been in Europe for a long time, as has HV.

    Isolated areas like mountain and island villages throw up lots of "rare" mtDna. I don't know how valuable it is for drawing huge generalities.

    There isn't much on U2d. This old paper links it to "medieval migrations of nomadic tribes from the Caucasus and eastern Europe to central Europe."
    http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.3378/15..._pub%3Dpubmed&

    I don't know what they mean by that. Are they talking about groups like the Huns, or the Germanic tribes in general? Does anyone have access to the full paper? It is interesting that there's more U5a than there is U4d (15 versus 10) in these villages, and there's 8 U5b as well.

    This is the U2d information from Maciamo's page here:
    "
    • U2d : found in Europe and Central Asia
      • U2d1 : found in Central Asia
      • U2d2 : found in the Balkans and Central Asia
      • U2d3 : found in the Caucasus




    This is what I found about Jenne, the town with all the U2d.

    "Nel 1079 circa, Ildemondo dei Conti, comandante di una pattuglia di normanni e di longobardi assediò Jenne ove impose la resa l'invasore, Ildemondo si riappropriò così di Jenne."

    There's nothing else of note I could find, except what the paper mentions, which is the ties to Italic tribes. There's nothing about any settlements of medieval tribes from eastern Europe or the Caucasus.

    Agree - too small samples to conclude, poor Y-haplos depth - drifts - I don't know where are the studied places, if they are far one from another, i 'll look at it - but in remote mountainous places, if they are not too largely spred, a global mean can reflect the initial situation before local drifts in micro-regions (valleys and so on)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Agree - too small samples to conclude, poor Y-haplos depth - drifts - I don't know where are the studied places, if they are far one from another, i 'll look at it - but in remote mountainous places, if they are not too largely spred, a global mean can reflect the initial situation before local drifts in micro-regions (valleys and so on)?
    With a list of values like these perhaps the median, which is 32%, would be better? That would certainly be more in keeping with values on the edge of southern Italy, as is the case here.

    Even then, I'm not sure it necessarily follows, Moesan. So much is down to chance. Were all the villages settled at the same time, from the same exact area? Were the people who chose to go into the mountains necessarily representative, in terms of uniparental markers, of that area? Autosomally, they probably were, but uniparental markers can vary widely. Then, so much depends on fertility rates, who dies and when. MtDna U4d is in one village, but there are ten people carrying it. Perhaps that original woman's line got lucky.

    Ed. I did try to check into the history of these villages, but even Italian sources don't have much. Except for one village which was taken over by some Norman knights, I couldn't find anything after the Roman era. So, I don't know if the founding populations were from the Neolithic-Italici populations of that time, or whether other groups had moved in and no good land being left, retreated into the mountains.

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    That's where my family is from! This thread is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    Almost all Eupedia maps show 30-10% of R1b Starting from central Italy, and into the South. So yes, for these regions, it is typical.
    Not really. Tuscany, biggest region in Central Italy, has 50% of R1b with a peak in northern Tuscany of 76%, more than many parts of Northern eastern Italy. Btw this study, that was already discussed more than one year ago, analyses isolated villages between Lazio and Abruzzo, the historical border between Central and Southern Italy. In this study there is even a village in Lazio that has between 24% and 35% of Germanic I1, that is present also in Abruzzo and Molise.

    Italy is a very complicated country, even too complicated for some Italian scholars, some of them are really scarce. Let alone for those foreigner scholars who have an agenda, not an excellent knowledge of Italy or both.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...cient-genetics

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, considering it's so bad maybe it's a good thing if everyone forgets about it. :)

    You did a great job on that paper, Maciamo. Someone should send the authors a copy. They need the constructive criticism.
    Indeed. Unfortunately, the older generation of Italian scholars has been replaced by a new generation which is really disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is what I found about Jenne, the town with all the U2d.

    "1079 circa, Ildemondo dei Conti, comandante di una pattuglia di assediò Jenne ove impose la resa l'invasore, Ildemondo si riappropriò così di Jenne."

    There's nothing else of note I could find, except what the paper mentions, which is the ties to Italic tribes. There's nothing about any settlements of medieval tribes from eastern Europe or the Caucasus.

    There is very little about these villages, except this book, based on conference proceedings.

    "I Longobardi in Valcomino e nel Lazio meridionale".

    https://www.ibs.it/longobardi-in-val.../9788897805069

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    Geographical borders in Italy don't necessarily fit perfectly with the genetic clines, especially in what is labeled "Central Italy", which is something which people who haven't studied it in depth rarely understand. Imo, the Abruzzi and the southern part of Lazio, although labelled central Italy, are really southern Italy genetically and even culturally. Even Toscana has its genetic cline, with northwestern Toscana leaning north.

    I think the political divisions of the period prior to unification explain part of this.

    Nowadays, of course, the common understanding is even looser (and more incorrect genetically). I recently posted a video created by a great guy who considers himself North Italian, a Lombard. However, from what I can tell he is 3/4 Pugliese. That's why if genetics is the focus of certain studies long established pedigrees in an area are important. However, as I said, going to the other extreme and using uniparental results from such drifted communities is also problematical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Not really. Tuscany, biggest region in Central Italy, has 50% of R1b with a peak in northern Tuscany of 76%, more than many parts of Northern eastern Italy. Btw this study, that was already discussed more than one year ago, analyses isolated villages between Lazio and Abruzzo, the historical border between Central and Southern Italy. In this study there is even a village in Lazio that has between 24% and 35% of Germanic I1, that is present also in Abruzzo and Molise.
    That is correct, the R1b are later comers into western and western-central Italy and do not reflected the indigenous population of those areas, .............

    what needs to be studied is the north and south picenes, umbri , sabines/sabellic and the messapics

    IMO, the etruscans are a splinter group from the umbri people and never replaced whoever the indigenous people of tuscany where in 900BC ,( 900BC etruscans oldest recorded period )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    With a list of values like these perhaps the median, which is 32%, would be better? That would certainly be more in keeping with values on the edge of southern Italy, as is the case here.

    Even then, I'm not sure it necessarily follows, Moesan. So much is down to chance. Were all the villages settled at the same time, from the same exact area? Were the people who chose to go into the mountains necessarily representative, in terms of uniparental markers, of that area? Autosomally, they probably were, but uniparental markers can vary widely. Then, so much depends on fertility rates, who dies and when. MtDna U4d is in one village, but there are ten people carrying it. Perhaps that original woman's line got lucky.

    Ed. I did try to check into the history of these villages, but even Italian sources don't have much. Except for one village which was taken over by some Norman knights, I couldn't find anything after the Roman era. So, I don't know if the founding populations were from the Neolithic-Italici populations of that time, or whether other groups had moved in and no good land being left, retreated into the mountains.

    in meanwhile I red other posts and saw this wurvey was not recent nor very acute, so I give up- my modest remark was just about statistical aspects when some great discrepancies are found in neighbouring micro-regions: somewhat, sometime the global mean reset the original percentages or can come close to.

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    My ydna is from Trevi and I'm E-V13. I'd like to know how this hg got there.

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