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Thread: GEDmatch kits of Bell Beaker men with R1b-DF27 & R1b-U152

  1. #1
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    3 members found this post helpful.

    GEDmatch kits of Bell Beaker men with R1b-DF27 & R1b-U152

    This one:


    I0806 Bell Beaker, Quedlinburg, Germany (2431-2150 BC)
    Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2a-DF27
    GEDmatch Kit Number: T253390



    And this:


    RISE563 Bell Beaker, Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
    Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152
    GEDmatch Kit Number: T644357



    =====================================


    Some autosomal DNA comparison of my results and I0806:


    Ancient Eurasia K6:


    1) I0806, Bell Beaker (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 49.45
    2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 25.74
    3 Natufian 24.81


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Steppe_MLBA 7.35
    2 Estonian 8.33
    3 Lithuanian 8.5


    2) Tomenable, Polish (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.79
    2 Natufian 34.21
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.69
    4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1
    5 East_Asian 0.31


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Ukrainian 2.07
    2 Norwegian 2.41
    3 Czech 2.78


    Eurasia K10 CHG:


    1) I0806, Bell Beaker (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 38.43
    2 EHG 29.66
    3 Anatolian_Farmers 18.55
    4 CHG 13.37


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Icelandic 15.46
    2 Norwegian 15.86
    3 Ukrainian 15.99


    2) Tomenable, Polish (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 41.56
    2 CHG 21.71
    3 EHG 16.18
    4 Anatolian_Farmers 15.25
    5 SW_Asian 4.34
    6 Amerindian 0.77
    7 Papuan 0.18


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Czech 4.03
    2 Scottish 4.04
    3 Ukrainian 4.36

  2. #2
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
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    Hey Tomenable, is there a chance someone can fix Karelian kit on GedMatch?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Hey Tomenable, is there a chance someone can fix Karelian kit on GedMatch?
    Karelian EHG? I think I can try to upload that kit.

  4. #4
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    Ran a 1 on 1 comparison between T644357 and I. Figured he could be a direct ancestor seeing how we are U152, but we had no matching segments.

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    Interesting that those Central European Beakers were pretty much North-Eastern European genetically.

    I0806 (Bell Beaker man with R1b-DF27 haplogroup from Germany, dated to years 2431-2150 BC) resembles modern Eastern Europeans and Scandinavians in terms of autosomal DNA. He is also close to Steppe_MLBA (Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe, so Post-Yamnaya cultures such as Andronovo and Sintashta - but those two cultures were dominated by R1a-Z93).

    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    Ran a 1 on 1 comparison between T644357 and I. Figured he could be a direct ancestor seeing how we are U152, but we had no matching segments.
    Maybe he lived so long ago that you don't have any long enough matching segments. It does not mean that you don't have matching segments which are shorter than 3 cM. But 1 on 1 comparison only shows segments longer than 3 cM.

    I also don't have matches >3 cM with T253390, even though he could be ancestral to many DF27 men.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Karelian EHG? I think I can try to upload that kit.
    Thanks. It was under M652848, but it can't be found anymore by the program. How about Otzi?

  7. #7
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The second R1b-U152 is most similar to Corded from Estonia.


    T644357 RISE563 R1b-U152 M913021 Rise00
    Germany, Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Bell Beaker Corded Estonia
    Run time 6.24 Run time 8.05
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 13.69 Baloch 14.27
    Caucasian 0.58 Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 60.74 NE-Euro 59.09
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian 0.8
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 23.18 Mediterranean 25.26
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 1.8 W-African 0.5

    Compared to other Corded and Beaker they completely miss Caucasian admixture. Perhaps it is accidental and due to not top notch sample quality? Though if they have some it is not much, still low. They have very low admixture with Iranian and Anatolian farmer.

    Unetice one is very close too:
    M453254 RISE154
    Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC] K1a4a1 -
    Run Time 4.06
    S-Indian -
    Baloch 14.46
    Caucasian 4.05
    NE-Euro 53.71
    SE-Asian -
    Siberian -
    NE-Asian -
    Papuan -
    American 0.96
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 26.58
    SW-Asian -
    San -
    E-African 0.2
    Pygmy -
    W-African -

  8. #8
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    The first on R1b DF27 matches more Late Neolithic/Bell beaker guys. They definitaly have more neolithic farmer admixtures but not a lot more. Some elevated Med and Caucasian when compared to CW.

    Bell Beaker
    T253390 I0806 Rib-DF27 M671253 M107790
    Germany, Quedlinburg 2431-2150BC Nordic LN, Rise 71 Germany LN
    Run time 4.05 Run Time 4.64 Run time 11.67
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 1.28
    Baloch 13.34 Baloch 9.29 Baloch 11.84
    Caucasian 9.25 Caucasian 10.55 Caucasian 6.75
    NE-Euro 49.82 NE-Euro 51.89 NE-Euro 49.39
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 27.41 Mediterranean 27.34 Mediterranean 30.33
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San 0.22 San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.17 W-African 0.7 W-African 0.37

  9. #9
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    The R1b-L21 BA Irishmen and the Rb-U106 Late Neolithic Swede were similar to Srubnaya and Corded Ware aswell. They all had more Steppe ancestry than any modern Europeans. It just shows R1b-L151 is from the Steppe and was still mostly Steppe when it landed on the Western and Northern edges of Europe.

  10. #10
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    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 38.43
    2 EHG 29.66
    3 Anatolian_Farmers 18.55
    4 CHG 13.37
    A typical Yamnayan guy, uh?

    By the way, his Neolithic source would be quite unique being 2/3 WHG and 1/3 Anatolian...
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By the way, his Neolithic source would be quite unique being 2/3 WHG and 1/3 Anatolian...
    In Eastern Europe some pockets of ~100% WHG people existed even until 1750 BC (Narva culture). Maybe Indo-Europeans, while moving from the Steppe, mixed with those last pure WHGs. Maybe this explains why I2 and I1 haplogroups flourished in Bronze Age Europe.

    Perhaps a lot of WHG admixture in Western Europe today, is not from local WHGs, but from Baltic Sea region WHGs.

    Kunda culture and Narva culture, despite being Eastern European, were ~100% WHG with no any EHG nor EEF.

  12. #12
    MarkoZ
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    The question is whether Eastern Europe was the only place where European hunters persisted. Didn't Alentoft et al. show that Basques had elevated Mesolithic ancestry as well?

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    In calculators which use ancient components, Bell Beaker man I0806 plots maybe even to the east of modern Poles. See for example how much of ANE and EHG that Beaker man has. He has more ANE and EHG than I do.

    But in Eurogenes K36, I0806 scores a lot of "Iberian" and "Basque". These are modern components. Probably the reason why he scores them, is that modern Iberians are descended from men like him. But modern Iberians are only partially descended from men like I0806. They are mostly Neolithic EEF-descended.

    This is why in calculators which use ancient components (like WHG, ANE, EEF, EHG) Central European Bell Beaker men plot closer to modern Northern/Eastern Europeans, who have similar proportions of these components to Bell Beakers. But in calculators which use modern components, shaped by recent genetic drift, Bell Beakers plot more to the west, because Beaker population contributed more ancestry to ancestors of modern Western Europeans.

    =============

    Eurogenes K36:

    1) I0806 (haplogroup R1b-DF27):

    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 4.85
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 1.69
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 16.01
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 7.57
    Fennoscandian -
    French 9.96
    Iberian 22.70
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian -
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 9.40
    North_Caucasian 6.59
    North_Sea 21.24
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med -

    2) Tomenable (haplogroup R1b-DF27):

    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 0.91
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 9.80
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 8.54
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 22.87
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 13.99
    Fennoscandian 9.32
    French 4.93
    Iberian 0.39
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 5.96
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 8.14
    North_Caucasian 2.15
    North_Sea 11.81
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med 1.20

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The question is whether Eastern Europe was the only place where European hunters persisted. Didn't Alentoft et al. show that Basques had elevated Mesolithic ancestry as well?
    IIRC,in this paper about ancient mtDNA from Iberia, they write that in some regions of Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Age Iberia, there were indeed elevated levels of Mesolithic mtDNA haplogroups:

    https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de...00000815&la=en

    https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de.../100000815.pdf

  14. #14
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In Eastern Europe some pockets of ~100% WHG people existed even until 1750 BC (Narva culture). Maybe Indo-Europeans, while moving from the Steppe, mixed with those last pure WHGs. Maybe this explains why I2 and I1 haplogroups flourished in Bronze Age Europe.

    Perhaps a lot of WHG admixture in Western Europe today, is not from local WHGs, but from Baltic Sea region WHGs.

    Kunda culture and Narva culture, despite being Eastern European, were ~100% WHG with no any EHG nor EEF.
    Narva is an example, also the Pitted Ware in Scandinavia lasted long, and there were in such dates HG in Central Germany also... what we could find in the Atlantic (Portugal, France, UK) with its maritime resources so?

    So Western Yamnayans traveled northwards, mixed with Narvans to get the high WHG, and then went westwards till Germany, leaving scanty traces of R1b in the Baltics and in the Steppes. What a plot...

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    ^Actually, Russian results are heavily biased to the NW of the country which is rich in R1a ,N1c and I2-M423. The steppes don't yield large populations in modern day. There's a lot of evidence pointing to M269+ spreading from the steppes. I'm not sure how you can actually refute this evidence? I guess your suggestion is that ....is that the steppes were populated from the Pyrenee mountains? We were laughing about it 15 years ago, we're still laughing today.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    ^Actually, Russian results are heavily biased to the NW of the country which is rich in R1a ,N1c and I2-M423. The steppes don't yield large populations in modern day. There's a lot of evidence pointing to M269+ spreading from the steppes. I'm not sure how you can actually refute this evidence? I guess your suggestion is that ....is that the steppes were populated from the Pyrenee mountains? We were laughing about it 15 years ago, we're still laughing today.
    That's a rather odd interpretation of what berun said.

  17. #17
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    Tomenable, what about Poltavka I0432 this R1a Z94 guy? Could be interesting if he matches autosomal of the rest guys who are R1b.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Tomenable, what about Poltavka I0432 this R1a Z94 guy? Could be interesting if he matches autosomal of the rest guys who are R1b.
    I think I found him M630274.

    Very interesting R1a guy look more like WHG with some Baloch added. A very old mix of WHG and EHG. This R1a have 20% of Med admixture like normal WHG, but with Baloch like a normal EHG. It doesn't look like these guys mixed since LGM. Anyway. These are 3 distinct h-gs. First one is Hungarian WHG KO1, second the R1a Z93 from Samara, and 3rd, is a mixture of similar genomes of 3 EHG from Samara, R1b and R1a mixture. Typical EHG doesn't have Med, and typical WHG doesn't have Baloch.

    M325047 KO1 M630274 I0432 M737081
    Hungarian, h-g 7.7 kya Samara Poltavka outlier R1a-M417>Z93 2925-2536 BC Kvalinsk HG (I0122+I0124+I0433)
    Run time 9.43 Run time 7.79 Run time 8.15
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch 14.7 Baloch 20.2
    Caucasian - Caucasian - Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 80.37 NE-Euro 63.14 NE-Euro 71.08
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.53 Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American 6.89
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 1.7
    Mediterranean 18.59 Mediterranean 22.15 Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.5 W-African - W-African 0.13


    Where is this middle fellow coming from? I guess it has to be east off Samara region. I'm guessing that he needs to be from somewhere from between WHG and EHG. Maybe Central Ukraine, West Yamnaya? UHG, Ukrainian Hunter Gatherer. Or from farther north like Belarus/East Russia?

    We need to check the Karelian HG guy to see how he looked?


  19. #19
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    Same "guy" pops up in Estonia 1 thousand years later in CW. With maybe a tiny touch of EEF farmer in it.
    M630274 I0432 M913021 Rise00
    Samara Poltavka outlier R1a-M417>Z93 2925-2536 BC Corded Estonia 4 kya
    Run time 7.79 Run Time 8.05
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 14.7 Baloch 14.27
    Caucasian - Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 63.14 NE-Euro 59.09
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian 0.8
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 22.15 Mediterranean 25.26
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African 0.5



  20. #20
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    I think you guy are obviously too much focus on y-dna haplogroups and not enough on mtdna haplogroups, but women are the matrice of all, Narva Culture shows typical mtdna haplogroups U5b of south-west europe ( france ), this can explain the large WHG admixture in baltic pockets. I also think that hunters of europe WHG are underestimate in there economic and genetic exchanges relation with eastern europe. As for Bell Beaker, given that the pottery was a " fashion phenomena " a lot of people with different admixture can be carrier of.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    ^Actually, Russian results are heavily biased to the NW of the country which is rich in R1a ,N1c and I2-M423. The steppes don't yield large populations in modern day. There's a lot of evidence pointing to M269+ spreading from the steppes. I'm not sure how you can actually refute this evidence? I guess your suggestion is that ....is that the steppes were populated from the Pyrenee mountains? We were laughing about it 15 years ago, we're still laughing today.
    The steppes had larger populations in the Chalco? can you explain how or it's pure guessing.

    Pyrenees? You might update your Gondwana atlas, I was mentioning Atlantic countries with rich maritime resources.

    Even so you are allowed to laugh some time more.

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