The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

Just came home and have merged 3 threads on same subject. Don't get lost. :)
 
MarkoZ said:
I just skimmed the admixture analysis - Latvia_LN1 (early Corded Ware) does have substantial farmer admixture. Which leaves me wondering why the authors would chose that headline.

My earlier assumption was based on the dates of Corded Ware in Finland and Latvia.
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It actually confirms my hypothesis, that there is no farming without farmer genes. ;)
 
Tomenable said:
All known R1a/b samples older than 6000 years, chronologically:

1) Villabruna, ca. 14180-13780 (avg. 13980) years ago - R1b
2) Karelia, ca. 8850-8000 (avg. 8425) years ago - R1a
3) Lokomotiv, ca. 8125-6025 (avg. 7075) years ago - R1a
4) Lokomotiv, ca. 8125-6025 (avg. 7075) years ago - R1a
5) Latvia, ca. 7800-7600 (avg. 7700) years ago - R1b
6) Samara, ca. 7650-7560 (avg. 7605) years ago - R1b
7) Iberia, ca. 7180-7060 (avg. 7120) years ago - R1b-V88
8) Latvia, ca. 7250-6800 (avg. 7025) years ago - R1b
9) Khvalynsk, ca. 7200-6000 (avg. 6600) years ago - R1b
10) Khvalynsk, ca. 7200-6000 (avg. 6600) years ago - R1a
11) Smolensk, around 6000 (avg. 6000) years ago - R1a
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Yes and you know what is so fascinating about the Iberian sample. It has absolutely zero signs of Steppic like admixture. Infact it is a very typical Anatolian_Farmer.
 
Tomenable said:
Not in that context.

You were discussing the possibility that CHG people spread agriculture into Latvia. But there was no any migration of 100% CHG people into Latvia. Those who migrated were Steppe people, and therefore 50/50 EHG/CHG Yamna immigrants.

Also note that Latvian HG with R1b-P297 did not have any CHG. Those were Corded Ware with R1a who had it.

Latvian HG only had some ANE admixture, but no any CHG (it has just been discussed on Anthrogenica).

=================

That particular LN1 was a woman. But more Baltic Corded Ware samples are to be published soon.

And according to what I have heard, they are all going to be autosomally similar to LN1.

And they are going to have R1a haplogroup.
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The Steppe people themselves were already an agricultural people (herders) like their CHG ancestors, they were no foragers like their EHG ancestors. So the conclusion is obvious in itself. For what do they need extra farmer ancestry? Though they seem to had even some EEF.
 
Alan said:
agricultural people (herders) like their CHG ancestors
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However, CHG stands for Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer.

Alan said:
The two statements contradict each other.
Click to expand...

What I meant is that she has no any Non-Yamnaya CHG.

LeBrok said:
It actually confirms my hypothesis, that there is no farming without farmer genes. ;)
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What is "farmer genes" ??? Is there a specific gene associated with farming abilities?

Can you be a truck driver without truck driver genes? :LOL:
 
Tomenable said:
CHG stands for Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer.
Click to expand...

My bad I should have written CHG like, because it is unlikely that the CHG directly contributed to the Steppes since they are a mesolithic people and by mesolithic everyone was a H&G. However we know by fact that the descends of these CHG people became herders since we have herders from the Iranian Plateau and even Caucasus that are CHG like. And this is why Lazaridis goes rather with the Iran_CHL+additional CHG / EHG theory rather than the CHG/EHG one, because it makes historically and archeologically more sense. Or who else do you think brought them the Herding. Their Samara EHG ancestors certanly not.

And this is why I say we need Bronze Age and Neolithic samples from Caucasus too. Still waiting for Maykop samples to be published.
 
MarkoZ said:
I thought that Latvia didn't 'arrive' in Corded Ware, because Latvian Corded Ware yields older dates than Central European Corded Ware. Latvia would have been the starting point of the Corded Ware expansion. See, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_early_husbandry_in_the_East_Baltic_region

I got excited because of the headline, but the actual data says that the 'autonomous transition' hypothesis is falsified beyond all reasonable doubt.

Edit: Though it's possible that the farming in early Corded Ware was more CHG than Anatolian Farmer mediated - look at those substantial CHG components in both early Corded Ware and the Karelian hunters.
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Edit: MN Latvia and HG Latvia might be the same as LN Estonia genome of CW.

This LN Estonia is like pure hunter gatherer. I don't see any farming admixture in him. He is like WHG + step Baloch/ANE. If he was mixed with farmers, he should have had some Caucasian and SW Asian. If he has some farmer genes it is not more than 5 percent, and mostly through increased Med from EEF. Very likely, he is one more type of European hunter gatherer. Here is bunch of known european h-gs and he fits with them perfectly.
M913021Rise00F999918I-L460M218547I0124F999924Ajvide 58, I-CTS772F999917I-L416M643041I0061
Corded Estonia,4 kya Loschbour, Luxembourg7 kyaSamara HG7.6 kyaSweden5kyaMotala 12 Östergötland, Sweden7 kyaKarelia, OleniyOstrov N Russia5.25 kya
Run Time8.05Run time14.93Run time5.57Run time9.7Run time8.67Run time9.88
S-Indian-S-Indian-S-Indian-S-Indian-S-Indian-S-Indian-
Baloch14.27Baloch-Baloch14.33Baloch-Baloch-Baloch9.46
Caucasian-Caucasian-Caucasian-Caucasian-Caucasian-Caucasian-
NE-Euro59.09NE-Euro77.83NE-Euro75.62NE-Euro70.71NE-Euro90.24NE-Euro72.66
SE-Asian-SE-Asian0.44SE-Asian-SE-Asian1.54SE-Asian-SE-Asian-
Siberian0.8Siberian-Siberian-Siberian1.34Siberian0.07Siberian-
NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian-
Papuan-Papuan0.84Papuan-Papuan-Papuan0.57Papuan-
American-American-American9.62American1.37American1.58American12.6
Beringian-Beringian-Beringian0.15Beringian-Beringian0.68Beringian5.16
Mediterranean25.26Mediterranean20.66Mediterranean-Mediterranean23.22Mediterranean6.83Mediterranean-
SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-
San-San-San-San-San-San-
E-African-E-African-E-African-E-African-E-African-E-African-
Pygmy-Pygmy-Pygmy-Pygmy0.19Pygmy-Pygmy0.07
W-African0.5W-African0.17W-African0.2W-African1.63W-African-W-African-
 
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It would be nice to upload Latvian LN1 to GEDmatch.
 
Alan said:
My bad I should have written CHG like, because it is unlikely that the CHG directly contributed to the Steppes since they are a mesolithic people and by mesolithic everyone was a H&G. However we know by fact that the descends of these CHG people became herders since we have herders from the Iranian Plateau and even Caucasus that are CHG like. And this is why Lazaridis goes rather with the Iran_CHL+additional CHG / EHG theory rather than the CHG/EHG one, because it makes historically and archeologically more sense. Or who else do you think brought them the Herding. Their Samara EHG ancestors certanly not.

And this is why I say we need Bronze Age and Neolithic samples from Caucasus too. Still waiting for Maykop samples to be published.
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I know there are some who desperately want to believe it, but the idea that some pure CHG Mesolithic hunter-gatherers were the ones who mixed into the steppe Eneolithic is not very persuasive to me. We know it was already there by Kvalynsk, but it increased with time. Those people were most probably already herding domestic animals. Time will tell though.

From Iain Mathieson et al:
"The Samara_Eneolithic from Khvalynsk II (~5,200-4,000BCE) predates the Yamnaya by at least 1,000 years but had already begun admixingwith this population, although the individuals of this population appear to be heterogeneous(Fig. 1) between EHG and Yamnaya. Taken as a whole, we estimate that they have ~74%EHG and ~26% Armenian related ancestry."
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

As I said above, this increased with time, with people even less likely to be some sort of fossil Caucasus hunter-gatherers.

Ed. Plus, CHG is mostly Iran Neolithic like anyway.
 
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bicicleur said:
I have to read it further, Angela, but for now the title seems correct to me.
If what Markoz says is rigth about CW originating in the Baltic, there is no EEF admixture.
But EEF itself becomes a very misleading term now.
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CW have EEF admixtures, except some of them like from Estonia lack it.
 
MarkoZ said:
The tentative timeline for Latvia based on these samples looks like this:

Mesolithic: HGs nestled inbetween WHG and Scandinavian HGs
Middle Neolithic: EHG in the proper sense, complete with American & Siberian ancestry components and something Bedouin-like
Late Neolithic (Corded Ware): disappearance of the Siberian shades & Bedouin, CHG becomes main ancestral component. The remaining ancestry comes from WHG and the mysterious 'dark blue' component.

Eneolithic & EBA steppe come from varying mixtures of CHG and EHG, but they like the Karelians have those minor Eastern components as well as Bedouin. They also lack substantial admixture from the 'dark blue' component that peaks in Latvian Corded Ware and a single WHG.

I guess this would indicate that CHG bypassed much of the Pontic steppe and for some reason managed to arrive relatively undiluted in the Baltic region.
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No Siberian and NE Asian admixtures yet. EHG had American and Beringian admixtures.
M643041I0061M218547I0124
Karelia, OleniyOstrov N Russia5.25 kyaSamara HG7.6 kya
Run time9.88Run time5.57
S-Indian- S-Indian-
Baloch9.46Baloch14.33
Caucasian- Caucasian-
NE-Euro72.66NE-Euro75.62
SE-Asian- SE-Asian-
Siberian- Siberian-
NE-Asian- NE-Asian-
Papuan- Papuan-
American12.6American9.62
Beringian5.16Beringian0.15
Mediterranean- Mediterranean-
SW-Asian- SW-Asian-
San- San-
E-African- E-African-
Pygmy0.07Pygmy-
W-African- W-African0.2
 
MarkoZ said:
I'm talking about the Latvians. The authors explicitly state that they are much more related to WHG than to EHG. Looking at Fig. S4 it's obvious that SHG is more related to EHG. The Baltics were a WHG stronghold despite their eastern position.
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You might be right.
Can we get this dude genome to GedMatch quickly. :) and the Smolensk R1a.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
@Tomenable,

I added the new Latvian and Ukrainian samples to my pigmentation spreadsheet.. I combined them with Sweden because Sweden, Latvia, Ukraine were a WHG and EHG mix to some extent and had similar pigmentation alleles.
Pre-Historic Pigmentation

The Latvian HGs have a mixture of derived/ancestral alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982. More ancestral than derived. The two Ukrainians had rs1426654 derived/derived=2, rs16891982 had derived/derived=1, derived/ancestral=1.

You shouldn't be so excited to call them white anyways, white people have ancestry from each ancient European population sampled and each population except WHG had some light skin alleles and some dark skin alleles. I really doubt any of them can be called THE white people and there's no special badge of honor in calling them THE white people.
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Good job FH. We already knew that modern white is conglomeration of many alleles from many separate populations. It was a long process and culminated around Baltic Sea where these mutations were the most needed.
 
Tomenable said:
What is "farmer genes" ??? Is there a specific gene associated with farming abilities?

Can you be a truck driver without truck driver genes? :LOL:
Click to expand...
Nope. Not everybody can drive a truck, you know that, right? Some people are missing necessary genetic predispositions for driving. Coordination, attention, memory, obedience to traffic law, long attention span, and liking driving enough to take it as a job. You might even have all the skills but no natural excitement to driving, nobody is going to make you a driver. This is why h-gs don't do farming. They love hunting and they hate farming. Unless you standing close by with a whip or a gun they won't do it. Simple like that.
On top of it, you know how it is when someone comes to your country and wants to change your culture. You are so ecstatic to embrace it, right?
 
LeBrok said:
Good job FH. We already knew that modern white is conglomeration of many alleles from many separate populations. It was a long process and culminated around Baltic Sea where these mutations were the most needed.
Click to expand...

This is off topic so this discussion shouldn't go much further but why the Baltic sea? Europeans far away from the Baltic sea are basically as pale as Europeans surrounding the Baltic sea.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
This is off topic so this discussion shouldn't go much further but why the Baltic sea? Europeans far away from the Baltic sea are basically as pale as Europeans surrounding the Baltic sea.
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Think in statistical terms, don't generalize all Europeans.
 
Angela said:
I know there are some who desperately want to believe it, but the idea that some pure CHG Mesolithic hunter-gatherers were the ones who mixed into the steppe Eneolithic is not very persuasive to me. We know it was already there by Kvalynsk, but it increased with time. Those people were most probably already herding domestic animals. Time will tell though.

From Iain Mathieson et al:
"The Samara_Eneolithic from Khvalynsk II (~5,200-4,000BCE) predates the Yamnaya by at least 1,000 years but had already begun admixingwith this population, although the individuals of this population appear to be heterogeneous(Fig. 1) between EHG and Yamnaya. Taken as a whole, we estimate that they have ~74%EHG and ~26% Armenian related ancestry."
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

As I said above, this increased with time, with people even less likely to be some sort of fossil Caucasus hunter-gatherers.
Click to expand...

it makes the theory that Khvalynsk were the 1st horse herders more likely
Khvalynsk would be a merging of local HG horse hunters with incoming herders
 
oh, oh

NarvaLatviaZvejnieki [Burial 93; HG2]M7791-7586 cal BP172,707,718R1b1a1aP297; reported as R1b1b, using Karafet et al. 2008 treeU2e1Jones 2017; additional info on Y-DNA from Sergey Malyshev
LatviaZvejnieki [Burial 121; HG3]M7252-6802 cal BP37,749,963R1b1a1aP297; reported as R1b1b, using Karafet et al. 2008 treeU5a2dJones 2017; additional info on Y-DNA from Sergey Malyshev


Y-DNA would be R1b-P297 which is ancestral to both R1b-M473 and R1b-M269

that changes a lot, because these are IE clades and ancestral to Yamna and Afanasievo

TMRCA 13.4 ka

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P297/

and also the Samara HG belonged to the same clade, he was pré-M473 and in view of the dating may even have been ancestral to R1b-M473

http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_23.06.2015.pdf


RussiaSok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44]M5650-5555 BCR1b1aM343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269-U5a1dC146T, C152T, C195T, A247G, A249d, 290-291d, T489C, A769G, A825t, A1018G, A2758G, C2885T, T3552a, T3594C, G4104A, T4312C, A4715G, G7146A, C7196a, T7256C, A7521G, T8468C, A8577G, G8584A, T8655C, A9545G, C10400T, T10664C, A10688G, C10810T, C10915T, A11605t, A12217G, G13105A, A13263G, G13276A, T13506C, T13650C, T14318C, T14783C, G15043A, G15301A, A15487t, A16129G, T16187C, G16230A, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, T16325C, C16327T, C16519T, A8577G, A11605t, A12217G, T16189C!Haak 2015; Sergey Malyshev; Mathieson 2015

Yamna Y-DNA came from mesolithic Eastern Europe and it was there at least since 7.5 ka and probably much earlier

we might be getting on to something now
 
LeBrok said:
Nope. Not everybody can drive a truck, you know that, right? Some people are missing necessary genetic predispositions for driving. Coordination, attention, memory, obedience to traffic law, long attention span, and liking driving enough to take it as a job. You might even have all the skills but no natural excitement to driving, nobody is going to make you a driver. This is why h-gs don't do farming. They love hunting and they hate farming. Unless you standing close by with a whip or a gun they won't do it. Simple like that.
On top of it, you know how it is when someone comes to your country and wants to change your culture. You are so ecstatic to embrace it, right?
Click to expand...

you're making things unnecessary complicated again,
everybody can learn to drive a truck unless he/she has a disorder
and nobody likes to be stuck in traffic jams all day
but some do it for a living

today there are no HGs any more, because you can't make a living from it
that is what happened
not because they liked farming so much
 
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