Looking for Karl Marx's Y-DNA haplogroup

Maciamo

Maciamo

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Browsing through the Jewish Y-DNA Project, I found two individuals with the surname Marx, one descending from Nathan Marx from Karlsruhe in Baden-Württemberg, and the other from Martin Marx from Frankenthal in Rhineland-Palatinate in the early 19th century. Karl Marx came from Trier also in Rhineland-Palatinate, not very far from either Frankenthal or Karlsruhe. Both lineages belong to haplogroup J1, but the haplotypes do not match, meaning that they are distinct patrilineal lineages. However since Marx isn't such a common Jewish surname and both lineages originated in the same part of Germany, around the Moselle valley, it is quite possible that Karl Marx descends from a common ancestor with one of those two lineages. In either case he would belong to haplogroup J1.
 
Maciamo said:
Browsing through the Jewish Y-DNA Project, I found two individuals with the surname Marx, one descending from Nathan Marx from Karlsruhe in Baden-Württemberg, and the other from Martin Marx from Frankenthal in Rhineland-Palatinate in the early 19th century. Karl Marx came from Trier also in Rhineland-Palatinate, not very far from either Frankenthal or Karlsruhe. Both lineages belong to haplogroup J1, but the haplotypes do not match, meaning that they are distinct patrilineal lineages. However since Marx isn't such a common Jewish surname and both lineages originated in the same part of Germany, around the Moselle valley, it is quite possible that Karl Marx descends from a common ancestor with one of those two lineages. In either case he would belong to haplogroup J1.
Click to expand...

Thank for the info.

Just a heads up:
Browsing through wikipedia, I found that Karl Marx's father was born Herschel Mordechai, son of Marx Levy Mordechai. It was only when he converted to Lutheranism, in 1817 or 1818, that he changed his name to Heinrich Marx.

On a second note, the linked FamilyTreeDna database puts Martin Marx under Haplogroup J1 ("J-267"), but Nathan Marx from Karlsuhe under Haplogroup J2 ("J-M172").

So, maybe it would be correct to search his ancestors under the name Mordechai prior to 1818 and under Marx after that date?

Regards!
 
João Soares said:
Thank for the info.

Just a heads up:
Browsing through wikipedia, I found that Karl Marx's father was born Herschel Mordechai, son of Marx Levy Mordechai. It was only when he converted to Lutheranism, in 1817 or 1818, that he changed his name to Heinrich Marx.

On a second note, the linked FamilyTreeDna database puts Martin Marx under Haplogroup J1 ("J-267"), but Nathan Marx from Karlsuhe under Haplogroup J2 ("J-M172").

So, maybe it would be correct to search his ancestors under the name Mordechai prior to 1818 and under Marx after that date?

Regards!
Click to expand...

Oops,you are right about Nathan being under J2.

Mordechai is a given name here (although it can also be a surname). Herschel is also a surname, but it appears to be a middle name in this case. Karl Marx's complete genealogy can be found here and his father is referred to as Heinrich Hirschel Marx, son of Mordechai gen. Marx Levi Halevi ben Samuel ha-Levi, Rabbi, son of Samuel Schmuel Mordechai ha-Levi, son of Mordechai Marx. It's a bit odd that the surname shifted several times between Marx and ha-Levi. Ha-Levi is a surname of the Levite Jews, who generally belong to R1a-Y2619 (under Z93). So that gives us a third possibility.

Wouldn't it be an interesting turn of history if Karl Marx had been R1a, considering that his ideology was espoused mostly by R1a-dominant countries? The irony is that R1a is not an originally Jewish lineage, but one that likely converted among Jews during the Early Middle Ages, perhaps in the Middle East (they descend from a branch of R1a-Z93 also found in Armenia, Anatolia and the Levant). The TMRCA of the Jewish R1a-Y2619 is 1400 years (so around 600 CE).
 
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Maciamo said:
Oops,you are right about Nathan being under J2.

Mordechai is a given name here (although it can also be a surname). Herschel is also a surname, but it appears to be a middle name in this case. Karl Marx's complete genealogy can be found here and his father is referred to as Heinrich Hirschel Marx, son of Mordechai gen. Marx Levi Halevi ben Samuel ha-Levi, Rabbi, son of Samuel Schmuel Mordechai ha-Levi, son of Mordechai Marx. It's a bit odd that the surname shifted several times between Marx and ha-Levi. Ha-Levi is a surname of the Levite Jews, who generally belong to R1a-Y2619 (under Z93). So that gives us a third possibility.

Wouldn't it be an interesting turn of history if Karl Marx had been R1a, considering that his ideology was espoused mostly by R1a-dominant countries? The irony is that R1a is not an originally Jewish lineage, but one that likely converted among Jews during the Early Middle Ages, perhaps in the Middle East (they descend from a branch of R1a-Z93 also found in Armenia, Anatolia and the Levant). The TMRCA of the Jewish R1a-Y2619 is 1400 years (so around 600 CE).
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Well I wouldn’t be surprised, if R1a is such a relevant german jewish Haplogroup. I would rather see it as probability, and it could certainly be possible to Karl Marx to have belonged to R1a Haplogroup or other probable/possible Haplogroups linked to his socio-geographical context. I just do not see the irony, but I get what you mean.
 
I thought this was pretty much still the current understanding about "Jewish" R1a1:

"A 2013 study by Rootsi et al. found that R1a-M582, the specific subclade of R1a to which all sampled Ashkenazi Levites with R1a belonged, was completely absent of a sample of 922 Eastern Europeans and was only found in one of the 2,164 samples from the Caucasus, while it made up 33.8% of non-Levite Ashkenazi R1a and was also found in 5.9% of Near Easterners bearing R1a. The clade, though less represented in Near Easterners, was more diverse among them than among Ashkenazi Jews. Rootsi et al. argued this supports a Near Eastern Hebrew origin for the paternal lineage R1a present among Ashkenazi Levites:[59] R1a-M582 was also found among different Iranian populations, among Kurds from Cilician Anatolia and Kazakhstan, and among non-Ashkenazi Jews."Previous Y-chromosome studies have demonstrated that Ashkenazi Levites, members of a paternally inherited Jewish priestly caste, display a distinctive founder event within R1a, the most prevalent Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europe. Here we report the analysis of 16 whole R1 sequences and show that a set of 19 unique nucleotide substitutions defines the Ashkenazi R1a lineage. While our survey of one of these, M582, in 2,834 R1a samples reveals its absence in 922 Eastern Europeans, we show it is present in all sampled R1a Ashkenazi Levites, as well as in 33.8% of other R1a Ashkenazi Jewish males and 5.9% of 303 R1a Near Eastern males, where it shows considerably higher diversity. Moreover, the M582 lineage also occurs at low frequencies in non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations. In contrast to the previously suggested Eastern European origin for Ashkenazi Levites, the current data are indicative of a geographic source of the Levite founder lineage in the Near East and its likely presence among pre-Diaspora Hebrews."[59]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
 
Angela said:
I thought this was pretty much still the current understanding about "Jewish" R1a1:

"A 2013 study by Rootsi et al. found that R1a-M582, the specific subclade of R1a to which all sampled Ashkenazi Levites with R1a belonged, was completely absent of a sample of 922 Eastern Europeans and was only found in one of the 2,164 samples from the Caucasus, while it made up 33.8% of non-Levite Ashkenazi R1a and was also found in 5.9% of Near Easterners bearing R1a. The clade, though less represented in Near Easterners, was more diverse among them than among Ashkenazi Jews. Rootsi et al. argued this supports a Near Eastern Hebrew origin for the paternal lineage R1a present among Ashkenazi Levites:[59] R1a-M582 was also found among different Iranian populations, among Kurds from Cilician Anatolia and Kazakhstan, and among non-Ashkenazi Jews."Previous Y-chromosome studies have demonstrated that Ashkenazi Levites, members of a paternally inherited Jewish priestly caste, display a distinctive founder event within R1a, the most prevalent Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europe. Here we report the analysis of 16 whole R1 sequences and show that a set of 19 unique nucleotide substitutions defines the Ashkenazi R1a lineage. While our survey of one of these, M582, in 2,834 R1a samples reveals its absence in 922 Eastern Europeans, we show it is present in all sampled R1a Ashkenazi Levites, as well as in 33.8% of other R1a Ashkenazi Jewish males and 5.9% of 303 R1a Near Eastern males, where it shows considerably higher diversity. Moreover, the M582 lineage also occurs at low frequencies in non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations. In contrast to the previously suggested Eastern European origin for Ashkenazi Levites, the current data are indicative of a geographic source of the Levite founder lineage in the Near East and its likely presence among pre-Diaspora Hebrews."[59]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
Click to expand...

Thanks!
I think we’re moving through a swampy terrain here.
From Wikipedia:
Having a last name of Levi or a related term does not necessarily mean a person is a Levite, and many Levites do not have such last names. Levitical status is passed down in families from parent to child, as part of a family's genealogical tradition. Tribal status is determined by patrilineal descent, so a child whose biological father is a Levite (in cases of adoption or artificial insemination, status is determined by the genetic father), is also considered a Levite. Jewish status is determined by matrilineal descent, thus conferring levitical status onto children requires both biological parents to be Jews and the biological father to be a Levite.


 
João Soares said:
Thanks!
I think we’re moving through a swampy terrain here.
From Wikipedia:
Having a last name of Levi or a related term does not necessarily mean a person is a Levite, and many Levites do not have such last names. Levitical status is passed down in families from parent to child, as part of a family's genealogical tradition. Tribal status is determined by patrilineal descent, so a child whose biological father is a Levite (in cases of adoption or artificial insemination, status is determined by the genetic father), is also considered a Levite. Jewish status is determined by matrilineal descent, thus conferring levitical status onto children requires both biological parents to be Jews and the biological father to be a Levite.
Click to expand...

Thank you Joao, yes, that's my understanding as well.

My point, though, was that this paper and all the most recent analyses I've read maintain that the R1a1 of these Levites is not European at all, but rather a Near Eastern lineage picked up perhaps during the Babylonian captivity or from the Mitanni etc..I was merely inquiring whether that had changed or perhaps I had misunderstood.

Some Levi/y families kept the last name, but others have not, adopting last names from the region in which they lived.

Famous Jewish families of Levite origin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite#Levite_surnames

I think Segals should be added.
 
Angela said:
I thought this was pretty much still the current understanding about "Jewish" R1a1:

"A 2013 study by Rootsi et al. found that R1a-M582, the specific subclade of R1a to which all sampled Ashkenazi Levites with R1a belonged, was completely absent of a sample of 922 Eastern Europeans and was only found in one of the 2,164 samples from the Caucasus, while it made up 33.8% of non-Levite Ashkenazi R1a and was also found in 5.9% of Near Easterners bearing R1a. The clade, though less represented in Near Easterners, was more diverse among them than among Ashkenazi Jews. Rootsi et al. argued this supports a Near Eastern Hebrew origin for the paternal lineage R1a present among Ashkenazi Levites:[59] R1a-M582 was also found among different Iranian populations, among Kurds from Cilician Anatolia and Kazakhstan, and among non-Ashkenazi Jews."Previous Y-chromosome studies have demonstrated that Ashkenazi Levites, members of a paternally inherited Jewish priestly caste, display a distinctive founder event within R1a, the most prevalent Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europe. Here we report the analysis of 16 whole R1 sequences and show that a set of 19 unique nucleotide substitutions defines the Ashkenazi R1a lineage. While our survey of one of these, M582, in 2,834 R1a samples reveals its absence in 922 Eastern Europeans, we show it is present in all sampled R1a Ashkenazi Levites, as well as in 33.8% of other R1a Ashkenazi Jewish males and 5.9% of 303 R1a Near Eastern males, where it shows considerably higher diversity. Moreover, the M582 lineage also occurs at low frequencies in non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations. In contrast to the previously suggested Eastern European origin for Ashkenazi Levites, the current data are indicative of a geographic source of the Levite founder lineage in the Near East and its likely presence among pre-Diaspora Hebrews."[59]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
Click to expand...

M582 is CTS6 on Yfull and on my R1a-Z93 tree. Its TMRCA is 2800 years, but AFAIK all Jews who are CTS6/M582 are also positive for Y2619, which has a TMRCA of only 1400 years. So that couldn't be Babylonian or otherwise ancient, but rather early Medieval (Byzantine era).
 
João Soares said:
Thanks!
I think we’re moving through a swampy terrain here.
From Wikipedia:
Having a last name of Levi or a related term does not necessarily mean a person is a Levite, and many Levites do not have such last names. Levitical status is passed down in families from parent to child, as part of a family's genealogical tradition. Tribal status is determined by patrilineal descent, so a child whose biological father is a Levite (in cases of adoption or artificial insemination, status is determined by the genetic father), is also considered a Levite. Jewish status is determined by matrilineal descent, thus conferring levitical status onto children requires both biological parents to be Jews and the biological father to be a Levite.
Click to expand...

Not all Levites are called Halevi or Levi, but most Halevi/Levi are normally Levites. The Ashkenazi Levite Project lists 64 people with the surname Halevi, Halevy, Levy, Levi, Levin or Levine who are all R1a-Y2619 (aka Y2630 on FTDNA). The Jewish project also has Levi-related surnames that aren't R1a. However many only list a Halevi ancestor but do not carry the (Ha)Levi surname themselves.
 
Most Ashkenazim belong to R1a Z93 which is a South-Central asian subclade.

-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg
 
Seanp said:
Most Ashkenazim belong to R1a Z93 which is a South-Central asian subclade.
Click to expand...

If you had read the posts in this thread, you'd see that this is exactly what we have been saying. But Z93 isn't accurate enough, it's only one specific deep clade: Y2619.

R1a-Z93-tree.png
 
Angela said:
Thank you Joao, yes, that's my understanding as well.

My point, though, was that this paper and all the most recent analyses I've read maintain that the R1a1 of these Levites is not European at all, but rather a Near Eastern lineage picked up perhaps during the Babylonian captivity or from the Mitanni etc..I was merely inquiring whether that had changed or perhaps I had misunderstood.

Some Levi/y families kept the last name, but others have not, adopting last names from the region in which they lived.

Famous Jewish families of Levite origin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite#Levite_surnames

I think Segals should be added.
Click to expand...
The Jewish R1a is a sub branch of a Near Eastern cluster specifically found in Kurdistan. It is in accordance of the Ashkenazi name that is most likely derived from Ashkan, the self designation of the Parthians.
 
Maciamo said:
M582 is CTS6 on Yfull and on my R1a-Z93 tree. Its TMRCA is 2800 years, but AFAIK all Jews who are CTS6/M582 are also positive for Y2619, which has a TMRCA of only 1400 years. So that couldn't be Babylonian or otherwise ancient, but rather early Medieval (Byzantine era).
Click to expand...

Aren't the TMRCAs of a lot of Jewish y lineages relatively young, though, a fact usually explained by the extreme bottleneck suffered by European Jews?
 
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