R1b-L389>V1636

[raspberry]

Hello, I am a carrier of the V1636 (M343+, L278+, L754+, L388+) clade of R1b. This clade was added only last year to the ISOGG tree and was also found in the Kura Araxes culture. I could imagine that this clade is connected to the Upper Mesopotamian Trialetian culture. Does anyone know more about this clade in matters of origin? The age of this clade is probably around 7000-17000calBC. For sure this clade has nothing to do with the "Indo-European" clades of R1b because it is just too old to be connected to them.
radiocarbon_CONTEXT_database_map_P2A.jpg
regards

[Maciamo]

Very interesting. This is such a rare subclade that it's nice to have someone who tested positive for it. It is of course a pre-Indo-European subclade.

[bicicleur]

I don't think the Kura Araxes R1b ever went to the steppe nor has anything to do with IE. It split from R1b-P297 16.8 ka.

[raspberry]

Hopefully there will be some articles about this clade in future. At the current point I dont know very much about my clade; its rare, found in low frequencies in whole West Asia and it was found in the Kura Araxes culture.

[Nordenborg]

I am also carrying V1636! Looks like we made it all the way to Sweden. :)

[raspberry]

I am also carrying V1636! Looks like we made it all the way to Sweden. :)

This is interesting. Did you make the BigY test (or any comparable Y-DNA next Generation sequencing test), so that you could purchase Yfull? The V1636 clade is very old (15600 ybp), so it has plenty of undiscovered subclades and the V1636 tree has still potential to grow. :)

What are your values for the STR YCALL? I assume your values for that STR are 22-23.

[raspberry]

It is sometimes as frustrating as it is fascinating to belong to such a rare haplogroup. I tested more than two years ago, but do not even have a single 12-STR match. There are people who have plenty of 12-STR matches, so many that they restrict themselves on higher STR matches.

Anyway, recently I was contacted by a Dungan. Dungan are a Chinese speaking ethnic group, originally Hui-Muslims who fled China in the 19.th century. This person claimed that we might have a common paternal ancestor during the medieval age. Since it is known that Huis descend paternally mostly from Arab and Persian merchants I thought that this could be a good trace. The person was an admirerer of the Mongols and wanted to have it true that our common ancestor was taken as a slave by Hulagu's army rather than being a merchant. He was tested positive for V1636, but after comparing our STRs it got clear that we do not share a common ancestor earlier than 3000 years ago.

What I would do to get a STR match at the moment.
Even if it proves to be something I would not prefer at the first place...

[raspberry]

What do you think about this?
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/...raxes.html?m=1

[Pip]

What do you think about this?
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/...raxes.html?m=1

Too many people are wedded to one fixed mindset or another. Some are insistent that no R1b could have existed in Armenia (or anywhere South of the Caucasus) until recently. For instance, they are keen to use the Eneolithic samples to link the origin of R1b-V1636 to other ancient Steppe people (most of whom came from Steppe locations well over 1,000 km away), while dismissing any link with Armenia (which is only 300 km away).

As you know, the data on V1636 is sparse, but what we currently have suggests a most recent common origin point close to the Caucasus - most likely in the South Eastern Pontic/North Eastern Turkey). Despite its estimated very early 13,600 BC coalescence point with P297 (with which I am broadly in agreement with yfull), this leaves it very close to an estimated origin point for P297 somewhere in the North Eastern Pontic Steppe. There is really very little to disagree about.

I estimate an earlier TMRCA for V1636 than yfull - more like 8,000 BC, rather than yfull's 4,800 BC, but perhaps this is because yfull currently has only 4 relatively similar samples.

If you have your STR readings, I think this might reveal a little more, even if there are not any clear matches.

[raspberry]

A few days ago I looked at the new BigY Block Function of ftdna and saw that finally a person was tested positive for my paternal subclade after months. And the person is even from Kuwait which is a country on the Arabian Peninsula. I actually did not have too much hope anymore that my clade will be found in the Arabian Peninsula. I am positively surprised by this outcome and have no doubt anymore that my paternal line came with the Arabian settlers after the Islamic incorporation of southeastern Anatolia to the region. And since most of the Arab tribals migrated to what is now Kuwait only in the last couple hundred years from the central parts of the Peninsula, I am sure that also more Arabians will be tested positive for my sublaced of R1b.