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Thread: Age and TMRCA of Jewish lineages by haplogroup

  1. #26
    Regular Member ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Are you familiar with this website Maciamo?:
    It's clear evidence that Ashkenazim actually originate in the Northern Fertile crescent (or took a lot of conversions there), as compared to Sephardim and the rest.

    This to me explains Ashkenazi red hair and paleness. No admixture in Europe can explain the very high amounts of red hair among Ashkenazim (nobody is claiming admix. with Celts, and even so, this admix would have to be pretty heavy to make a big difference). I think it's worth remembering that Turkey once had a lot more people with red and even blonde hair (check Roman sources).

    This isn't to say Ashkenazim didn't convert lots of Mediterranean Europeans - this is evident from PCA plots - but from the Rhineland onwards, Ashkenazim seem to have pretty much kept to themselves. What is interesting is the high IBD sharing with Eastern Europeans - is that from Jews converting out, or Eastern Europeans converting in? You would imagine the latter, yet this is well after the Mishnah (very last centuries of the Roman Empire), where Jewish matrilineality laws were truly codified. Based on that, I think it's hard to truly believe Jewish men would take non-Jewish women. Are there reports of widespread Medieval Jewish conversions like in the Roman Empire?

    Anyhow, this whole topic is extremely interesting to me.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Anyhow, this whole topic is extremely interesting to me.
    How about Ashkenazi Jewish haplogroup I2a-A2512>A10959>Y23115? It is thought to have had an MRCA 1,800 years ago. The Jews are in its subbranches, whose MRCA is thought to have been 1,000 years ago.

    The only other people so far in A2512>A10959 are Greeks. There is another main branch of A2512, but it has subbranches with Greek, Chuvash and Spanish/Latin Americans with Greek roots.

    The Greeks and Jews are thought to have split off a long time ago. It's very interesting that they're the only people in one of the two main A2512 branches.

  3. #28
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    In that tree of J1 haplogroup ( there are 10 branches characteristic of Yehudim (Jews). Most of them have relatively young TMRCA, except ZS222 which is ancestor of Z18271.

    I think that J1-P58-Y3081-Y3088 (Z18271) is the haplogroup of biblical Jacob because it expanded quite rapidly about 2000-1000 BCE. It looks possible that straight male lineages of other Abraham's descendants and close relatives did not survive to modern times. At YFull tree there are now 8 branches of Y3088 (six of them have only one sample at the tree). There are 31 samples of Y3088 on YFull tree now. 13 of them belong to subbranch Y5399 which has TMRCA estimated by YFull as just 1000 ybp. 8 belong to subbranch Y31161 with TMRCA about 1650 ybp (which may be close to true age of that branch because it has 3 SNPs which are not shared by Y5399 branch). Age estimated by YFull may be about 25% larger than the estimation. About 1800 ybp there might be only one or two people with Y5400 haplogroup who have descendants in straight male lineage at YFull tree. Y31161 and Y5399 share 13 SNPs (quite long bottleneck, it appears to be about 1300 - 2000 years), I think that Y5400 (aka S12192) may be the haplogroup of Zadok and its TMRCA may be more than 50% (about 75%) larger than YFull estimation.

    Another candidate for Jacob's haplogroup is FGC8712 (its subclade ZS2121). It has Jewish branch ZS2102 which has relatively young TRMCA (1450 ybp according to YFull). FGC8712 has large (but bottlenecked - 13 SNPs) subclade L859 which appears to be the haplogroup of Muhammad, it may be a candidate for Ishmael's haplogroup. But it looks much more probable that Z18271 is main haplogroup of ancient Israelites and Ishmael was also Z18271 or at least ZS241.

    At YFull tree I found 10 samples of J1 from Palestine, but anyone of them belonged to Y3088 or even Y3081 (ZS241).

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