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Thread: Age and TMRCA of Jewish lineages by haplogroup

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Post Age and TMRCA of Jewish lineages by haplogroup

    Jewish people have a greater diversity of top-level haplogroups than almost any other ethnic/national group in Europe and the Middle East. However this diversity is illusive as for each haplogroup only some deep and very specific subclades are present among paternal Jewish lineages. The European Jewish population (Ashkenazi and Sephardi) underwent a major bottleneck during the Early Middle Ages. The purpose of this thread is to estimate when this bottleneck occurred based on the age estimates and time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for each specifically Jewish deep clade.

    E-Y14891 : formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

    E-Y6923 : formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp

    G2b1b-Y12975 (aka FGC32402) : formed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

    J1-ZS227 (aka Y3081) : formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp (Yfull) / 2270-3540 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)
    - J1-Z18271 (Y-chromosomal Aron) : formed 2750 ybp / 2625 ybp (Iain McDonald)

    J1-L816 : formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull) / 1000-1520 ybp (Iain McDonald & Marko T. Heinilä)

    J1-L823 : formed 1430-1570 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)

    J2-Y15223 : formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp (Yfull)

    J2-L254 : ?

    J2-L556 : formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull)

    J2-L590 : ?

    Q1b-Y2200 : formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp (Yfull)

    R1a-Y2619 (aka Y2630) : formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp (Yfull)

    R1b-FGC20980 (under V88) : formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1050 ybp

    R1b-L4 (under U152>Z56) : ?

    Based on these estimates, it appears that the bottleneck took place between 1100 and 1500 years ago (i.e. between 500 and 900 CE). The only lineage that did not experience this bottleneck, perhaps because it is the only lineage in common with non-European Jews, is the Cohanim J1-ZS227.

    Based on the age of those haplogroups, it looks like the original Jewish/Semitic lineages were E-M34, G2b1b, J1-P58, J2a1-M67 and J2a1-PF4888. There might have been some T1a, but I couldn't find what lineage was specifically Jewish. R1a-Z93, R1b-V88 and Q1b would have integrated Jewish/Israelite society during the Bronze Age. It is completely expected of R1a-Z93 and Q1b, which came with the Indo-Iranian invasions, but R1b-V88 has been in the Levant since the Early Neolithic. I don't understand why the Jewish clade shouldn't have an older age of formation than 3600 ybp.
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    Very helpful to have them all laid out in this way.

    By studying whole genomes, scientists came up with a date around 1200 AD, which nicely coincides with the brutal slaughter of the Jewish population of the Rhineland.

    This is Shai Carmi's 2014 study.
    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

    Some analysts in the pop gen world have quibbled with his mutation rate, and the generation age, and using adjusted figures come up with a date of about 900-1150 years ago. That would date the bottleneck to the original settlement in the Rhineland.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/...try-revisited/

    The total number of ancestors would grow, in the second case, from 350 to 300-500. Of course, that's not total number of people who survived, but total number who passed on their genes.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/...try-revisited/

    As for the R1a lineage, 800 BC is when the Assyrian Empire conquered Israel and reached its broadest extent.*

    The V88 is indeed puzzling. I don't know if I can find the reference, but in one of the papers that investigated the back migration into East Africa of groups from the Near East, the authors expressed some surprise that there was still a Sardinian like population in the Levant or passing through it at the rather late date they were estimating for some of this movement south. Perhaps V88 was late moving south into the Levant?

    *Ed. The Assyrians were eventually conquered by the Medes and the Persians. Some of the members of the so called Lost Tribes, with some cuckoos in the nest, might have been absorbed by the later Babylonian captives, and later returned to Israel. Wow, that's pretty fanciful for me, but possible, I suppose. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very helpful to have them all laid out in this way.

    By studying whole genomes, scientists came up with a date around 1200 AD, which nicely coincides with the brutal slaughter of the Jewish population of the Rhineland.

    This is Shai Carmi's 2014 study.
    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

    Some analysts in the pop gen world have quibbled with his mutation rate, and the generation age, and using adjusted figures come up with a date of about 900-1150 years ago. That would date the bottleneck to the original settlement in the Rhineland.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/...try-revisited/

    The total number of ancestors would grow, in the second case, from 350 to 300-500. Of course, that's not total number of people who survived, but total number who passed on their genes.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/...try-revisited/

    As for the R1a lineage, 800 BC is when the Assyrian Empire conquered Israel and reached its broadest extent.*

    The V88 is indeed puzzling. I don't know if I can find the reference, but in one of the papers that investigated the back migration into East Africa of groups from the Near East, the authors expressed some surprise that there was still a Sardinian like population in the Levant or passing through it at the rather late date they were estimating for some of this movement south. Perhaps V88 was late moving south into the Levant?

    *Ed. The Assyrians were eventually conquered by the Medes and the Persians. Some of the members of the so called Lost Tribes, with some cuckoos in the nest, might have been absorbed by the later Babylonian captives, and later returned to Israel. Wow, that's pretty fanciful for me, but possible, I suppose. :)

    The autosomal bottleneck does not necessarily coincides with the Y-chromosomal bottleneck. As you said the lowest point corresponds to the number of people who passed their genes, and in terms of Y-DNA that is only the paternal side. However Jewishness is passed on through mothers. Many lineages that were not originally Jewish entered the Jewish Y-DNA pool already since the Middle Ages. That is the case of R1b-L4 in the list above, but it's not impossible that some J2a clades were also not Jewish to start with, but perhaps Italian like R1b-L4 (a subclade of the Italic Z56). I was thinking about J2-L556. It is a subclade of Z8096 (downstream of M67 and M92) like S8230, a subclade that is mostly found in Italy, not in the Near East.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The autosomal bottleneck does not necessarily coincides with the Y-chromosomal bottleneck. As you said the lowest point corresponds to the number of people who passed their genes, and in terms of Y-DNA that is only the paternal side. However Jewishness is passed on through mothers. Many lineages that were not originally Jewish entered the Jewish Y-DNA pool already since the Middle Ages. That is the case of R1b-L4 in the list above, but it's not impossible that some J2a clades were also not Jewish to start with, but perhaps Italian like R1b-L4 (a subclade of the Italic Z56). I was thinking about J2-L556. It is a subclade of Z8096 (downstream of M67 and M92) like S8230, a subclade that is mostly found in Italy, not in the Near East.
    I think any time from 900 AD to 1200 AD works as the date of the bottleneck.

    As to R1b L4, I don't know when it formed or where it's most frequent.

    The history, although not terribly well documented, has always included a story that a group of Jews moved up the Italian peninsula, spent some time in Central/northern Italy, and moved from there into the Rhineland. The story went that some Italian women, and hence Italian mtDna, was absorbed. I don't know if that's true of even some of the migrants to the Rhineland, but if it's true it's not inconceivable that a gentile male was also absorbed. There is a report in the Bishop's archives for eastern Liguria/northwestern Toscana from around 600 AD that some Jewish landowners in the area, despite Papal rulings forbidding it, were still converting their retainers. The local Bishop was reprimanded for allowing it to continue. Better that it was absorbed that way than by some Crusader raping a Jewish girl during the massacres in the Rhineland. I think it's more probable as well, come to think of it, since usually the women were killed afterwards.

    The problem is that in IBD comparisons there is no recent IBD sharing between Ashkenazim and Italians. Of course, northern Italian genetics are pretty fragmented and perhaps it's because they had no Italian genomes from that area? Also, the autosomal material might have drifted out if it was minor, but the uni-parental signature(s) remained.

    I don't know about that particular J2 sub-group.

    Again, thank-you for the information.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Can we do this for mtDNA? Traditionally, Judaism is supposed to be passed through the female line. I feel like looking at "Jewish" Y haplotypes is like looking at "Basque" Y haplotypes; the Y types that are prevalent today within these groups may not have been the Y types that were prevalent thousands of years ago...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenarmstrong View Post
    Can we do this for mtDNA? Traditionally, Judaism is supposed to be passed through the female line. I feel like looking at "Jewish" Y haplotypes is like looking at "Basque" Y haplotypes; the Y types that are prevalent today within these groups may not have been the Y types that were prevalent thousands of years ago...
    That's very wrong. Both biblical- and pharisaic Juidaism were strongly patrilineal - it's only in the second half of the 1. millennium CE that a matrilineal system was adopted in the Rabbinic branches. While the latter system had a formative effect on the ethnogeneses of modern western Jews, biblical Jews were very different in their attitudes, as is obvious to anyone familiar with the old testament.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenarmstrong View Post
    Can we do this for mtDNA? Traditionally, Judaism is supposed to be passed through the female line. I feel like looking at "Jewish" Y haplotypes is like looking at "Basque" Y haplotypes; the Y types that are prevalent today within these groups may not have been the Y types that were prevalent thousands of years ago...
    To the best of my recollection inclusion in the Jewish community as dependent on the mother's ethnicity was something that was adopted as part of Talmudic law, so that would be even after the destruction of the Temple and the second diaspora. Before that it was through the father, as it still is for division into the three castes: Cohen, Levi, a total of about 8%, and then Israel, which is the vast majority.

    Also, Judaism was, before it felt itself besieged and oppressed by other religions, a proselytizing religion (later it became a capital offense for Jews to attempt to convert Christians), so, in those earlier times some gentile males might have been converted and become Jews, although, going by the Acts of the Apostles, the reaction of early Christian men when they were asked to undergo circumcision as adults was decidedly negative, and so I have my doubts that it happened very often.

    It was different for women. Yes, there are many instances in the Old Testament when the prophets fulminated against Jewish men marrying gentile women, but a lot of the time they were indeed incorporated into the community, or their children were, because in ancient times the women weren't even expected to convert. You only need to read the part of the Bible dealing with the wives of David and Solomon to find examples.

    Looking at the list of y lineages which Maciamo posted, most of them, the ones which represent the largest frequencies among Jews, look like standard Near East, and even Levant lineages, so I don't see any reason to doubt that they were brought into Europe as part of a diaspora.

    There's more controversy about the mtDna. I think a good chunk of it is European, although not as much as the, imo, badly done Costa paper would have us believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To the best of my recollection inclusion in the Jewish community as dependent on the mother's ethnicity was something that was adopted as part of Talmudic law, so that would be even after the destruction of the Temple and the second diaspora. Before that it was through the father, as it still is for division into the three castes: Cohen, Levi, a total of about 8%, and then Israel, which is the vast majority.

    Also, Judaism was, before it felt itself besieged and oppressed by other religions, a proselytizing religion (later it became a capital offense for Jews to attempt to convert Christians), so, in those earlier times some gentile males might have been converted and become Jews, although, going by the Acts of the Apostles, the reaction of early Christian men when they were asked to undergo circumcision as adults was decidedly negative, and so I have my doubts that it happened very often.

    It was different for women. Yes, there are many instances in the Old Testament when the prophets fulminated against Jewish men marrying gentile women, but a lot of the time they were indeed incorporated into the community, or their children were, because in ancient times the women weren't even expected to convert. You only need to read the part of the Bible dealing with the wives of David and Solomon to find examples.

    Looking at the list of y lineages which Maciamo posted, most of them, the ones which represent the largest frequencies among Jews, look like standard Near East, and even Levant lineages, so I don't see any reason to doubt that they were brought into Europe as part of a diaspora.

    There's more controversy about the mtDna. I think a good chunk of it is European, although not as much as the, imo, badly done Costa paper would have us believe.
    Fascinating!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very helpful to have them all laid out in this way.

    By studying whole genomes, scientists came up with a date around 1200 AD, which nicely coincides with the brutal slaughter of the Jewish population of the Rhineland.

    This is Shai Carmi's 2014 study.
    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

    Some analysts in the pop gen world have quibbled with his mutation rate, and the generation age, and using adjusted figures come up with a date of about 900-1150 years ago. That would date the bottleneck to the original settlement in the Rhineland.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/...try-revisited/

    The total number of ancestors would grow, in the second case, from 350 to 300-500. Of course, that's not total number of people who survived, but total number who passed on their genes.
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/...try-revisited/

    As for the R1a lineage, 800 BC is when the Assyrian Empire conquered Israel and reached its broadest extent.*

    The V88 is indeed puzzling. I don't know if I can find the reference, but in one of the papers that investigated the back migration into East Africa of groups from the Near East, the authors expressed some surprise that there was still a Sardinian like population in the Levant or passing through it at the rather late date they were estimating for some of this movement south. Perhaps V88 was late moving south into the Levant?

    *Ed. The Assyrians were eventually conquered by the Medes and the Persians. Some of the members of the so called Lost Tribes, with some cuckoos in the nest, might have been absorbed by the later Babylonian captives, and later returned to Israel. Wow, that's pretty fanciful for me, but possible, I suppose. :)
    I can give you one example of a group of "cuckoos in the nest" you mentioned...the British Israelites! These people are no different from the Nordicists who believe that every classical ancient civilization was north european in nature. Lol.

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    @Maciamo,

    Do you know of any studies about Jewish mtDNA? I wonder if most of their European ancestry is maternal because their Y DNA looks entirely Middle Eastern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Maciamo,

    Do you know of any studies about Jewish mtDNA? I wonder if most of their European ancestry is maternal because their Y DNA looks entirely Middle Eastern.
    Ashkenazic and Sephardic Y-DNA profiles don't look Middle Eastern at all, unless your Middle East begins at the Hellespont.

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    The R1a and Q1b that Jews have are from Mitanni. I don't no any Iranian who is close to that branches.
    Read the recent Q1b paper.
    Also the only R1a CTS6* found today are from Spain and Armenia. Also upstream are found in Palestinians but not in Iran and Central Asia.
    Most probably this lineages are from Mitanni Aryans.

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    The closest West Asian to Jewish Q1b is an Armenian. The same is in R1a.
    https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...862-016-0870-2


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    Here are some studies on Jewish mtDna. They should be read in chronological order. The Costa et al paper has been heavily criticized.

    This is 2008: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0002062

    This is 2010: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture09103.html

    This is 2013:http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

    See also discussions here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...t-haplogroup-K
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ncestry-jewish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    it looks like the original Jewish/Semitic lineages were E-M34, G2b1b, J1-P58, J2a1-M67 and J2a1-PF4888.
    No.

    The only original Israelitic line is this the oldest J1.

    Rest are to young to tell anything about them.
    And even if they were present among palestinian
    population 2000 years ago, it has not mean, that
    they are israelitic or semitic. Israelites had many
    slaves, and since the at least persian times made
    many conversions of pagans across the Levant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    No.

    The only original Israelitic line is this the oldest J1.

    Rest are to young to tell anything about them.
    And even if they were present among palestinian
    population 2000 years ago, it has not mean, that
    they are israelitic or semitic. Israelites had many
    slaves, and since the at least persian times made
    many conversions of pagans across the Levant.
    Nonsense, and based on absolutely no data, as usual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Nonsense, and based on absolutely no data, as usual.
    Read Israelitish history.

    And what data do you have to proof, that
    rest of mentioned haplotypes were israelitish?
    The last common ancestors are from medieval times.
    It is wishfull thinking. No proofs. Obviously, as usuall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Read Israelitish history.

    And what data do you have to proof, that
    rest of mentioned haplotypes were israelitish?
    The last common ancestors are from medieval times.
    It is wishfull thinking. No proofs. Obviously, as usuall.
    Please, enlighten us. Give us chapter and verse where the Bible discusses yDna haplotypes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please, enlighten us. Give us chapter and verse where the Bible discusses yDna haplotypes.
    Give me a proof, that those medieval haplotypes
    are ancient israelitish. Scientific proof!! You have
    none, but you claim that you know.

    Israelites are Semites, and descendants of Jacob.
    So logically, thay have to be J1 and of one clade,
    those which will represent Levites.

    Rest are slaves and converts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Give me a proof, that those medieval haplotypes
    are ancient israelitish. Scientific proof!! You have
    none, but you claim that you know.

    Israelites are Semites, and descendants of Jacob.
    So logically, thay have to be J1 and of one clade,
    those which will represent Levites.

    Rest are slaves and converts.
    Please provide the dna test on the remains of Jacob proving he was ydna J1.

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    Let me explain this on an elementary level. I don't know what Jacob's yDna was, and neither does anyone else. That's why you couldn't provide an answer to my question. What we can do is use "reasoned" speculation based on available data to arrive at a list of the probable yDna of the Israelites. Ancient dna will tell us more, although still not Jacob's ydna.

    This seems to be a foreign concept to you. If you can't engage in such conversations through lack of the requisite knowledge or logic, then don't comment.

  22. #22
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Your post was removed as off topic and irrelevant, so you post it again? You've just earned yourself another infraction for resisting moderation.

    Do you have a problem understanding the English language or with observing rules? Or do you get points at Stormfront for this kind of nonsense?

  23. #23
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    Rethel, we doubt that Jacob even existed, so you cannot build your argument on an unproven statement.

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    Ashkenazi I1 seems to have a tmrca with its closest cousins about 1350 ybp (my Y DNA).

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/ (the Polish and Romanian branches are actually Ashkenazi)

    There are two questions though - why are there so few Ashkenazi Y DNA I1s if the conversion is so old, and secondly, how did it happen in the first place if the closest branch (by far, the next closest branches have a tmrca 3000ybp) is... Norwegian? The tmrca places it firmly before the Viking Age...

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    Are you familiar with this website Maciamo?:

    https://jewishdna.net/

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