Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Migrations to Bronze Age Italy

  1. #1
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    3,034
    Level
    15
    Points: 3,034, Level: 15
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 16
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Migrations to Bronze Age Italy

    I have been doing some research looking at Yfull and ftdna, I came across particular Y lines that entered Italy during the Late-Neolithic up until the Late Bronze Age, covering the period between 6000-3000 ybp. I took a particular interest in the following haplogroups J2, J1, E, T and G. As R and I are fully covered, please feel free to add particular haplogroups or subclades, I also did not include neolthic farmer G as in anything over 7000 years. Also if I missed anything add it.

    Here goes the list

    For J1:

    J-YP4763 it is a branch under the J-Z2324, most of the brother clades are predominately Middle Eastern, the source of the line comes from the Middle East.

    For T:

    T-CTS6507 it is a branch under T-YP5441, similar to the J1, the brother clades are predominately Middle Eastern, possibly coming from the same source.
    T-CTS54 it is a branch under T-CTS933, this branch left the Middle East much earlier than the T branch making its way into Europe possibly during neolithic era.

    For G:

    G-Z726 it is a branch under L43, this subclade was most likely part of the Neolithic farmers, I see it entering Italy a bit later than Neolithic.
    G-Z29424 it is a branch under L13, the U1 branch of G seems like it entered Italy during this period.

    For J2:

    J-Z585 it is a branch under L283, a particular branch of J-Z585 entered Italy, it seems that L283 was already in Europe during the Neolithic.
    J-Z435 it is a branch under L70, similar to L283 it seems L70 entered Europe during the Neolithic, possibly together?
    J-CTS6804 it is a branch under CTS900, it came into Europe probably in different waves, possibly this branch comes in with L283 and L70.
    J-Z8096 it is a branch under M92, the brother clades are predominately Middle Eastern, the line came from the Middle East, possibly same source as J-YP4763 and T-CTS6507.

    For E:

    E-Y5412 it is a branch under M84, the brother clades are predominately Middle Eastern, the source is Middle Eastern most probably coming with J-YP4763, T-CTS6507, and J-Z8096.
    E-Z5017 it is a branch under CTS1273 which is under V13, as this one will need much more detail. It appears that CTS1273 was somewhere near North Eastern Italy, most likely the Carpathian mountain range, from there subclades such as Z5016 and Z5018 started trickling into Italy, some have been in Italy during the Bronze age while others being of the same upstreams could have came in through Greek migrations and Illyro-Thracian migrants during Classical antiquity.

  2. #2
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,722
    Points
    710,347
    Level
    100
    Points: 710,347, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 25.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Nice initiative. I have been doing the same kind of research in the last few months when I updated the haplogroup pages and phylogenetic trees.

    J-YP4763 clearly comes from the Middle East. Its age and TMRCA is estimated at 5600 years by Yfull, which was the Chalcolithic period. Phylogenetically it corresponds to the period when the Jewish and Arabic branches of J1-P58 split from one another. This one is apparently a third Semitic branch that ended up mostly in southern Italy, probably via Greece. Unfortunately we do not have the TMRCA within Italy itself, so we can't really tell if it migrated there during the Chalcolithic or later. My guess would be during the Bronze Age, following the Kura-Araxes expansion from the South Caucasus toward Anatolia and the northern Levant. This migration appears to have continued to Cyprus and Crete and could be the source of the Minoan civilisation. It would have been accompanied by E-M34, J2a and T1a lineages, that later spread to Greece and Italy.

    T1a-Y4990 and its subclade T-CTS6507 are among those lineages which I associated with the Kura-Araxes expansion. YP5441 ended up in Sardinia, but apparently not before the Early Iron Age, so my guess is that it would have been brought by the Phoenicians.

    T1a-CTS54 is 6800 years old and descends from branches found in the Fertile Crescent and Egypt. IMO, it spread to Europe during the Neolithic.

    E-Y5412 (aka FGC18412) dates from the Copper to Early Bronze Age (formed 7100 ybp, TMRCA 6200 ybp) in the Near East. I also associate it with the Kura-Araxes expansion that eventually reached Greece and Italy.

    The G2a clades you mentioned are all part of the three branches I identified as being assimilated by the Indo-Europeans in East or Southeast Europe before R1b tribes invaded Central and Western Europe. These are namely L1264, L13 and Z1816. All of them date from the Bronze Age. I associate the L13 branch with the R1a Indo-Europeans as it is most common in Baltic, Slavic and Indo-Iranian countries. G-Z29424 is an Iron Age subclade found in Iran and Central Europe, in addition to Italy. It is not clear when it entered Italy though. My guess is that it was present in eastern Europe and central Asia during the Scythian era and that it came to Italy with the Ostrogoths in the 5th century.

    In my recent update of the E1b1b page I explain that all present-day carriers of E-V13 have a TMRCA of only 4000 years, and that E-V13 branches therefore spread at the same time as R1b spread to Western and Northern Europe during the Bronze Age.

    J2b2-L283 (and its subclade Z585) date from the Early Bronze Age. I have theorised many years ago that J2b2 reached the Pontic-Steppe and Volga-Ural region by the Neolithic and was assimilated by the Proto-Indo-Europeans, before re-expanding to Europe, Central & South Asia with the PIE invasions. Recent data and TMRCA seems to confirm this.

    Two months ago, I tried to identify the J2a1 subclades associated with the Romans, and the prime candidate among them was J2a-Z435, and more specifically the PF5456 and Z2177 subclades. I proposed that either L70 was assimilated by the PIE in/around the Steppe or its subclade Z435 was assimilated in the Balkans or Central Europe by the advancing Proto-Italo-Celts before they invaded Italy. In either case Z435 would have come to Italy with the Italic invasions around 1200 BCE.

    J2a-CTS6804 is the Caucasian branch of J2a par excellence. It dates from the Neolithic, however I doubt that it spread both to Europe and the Caucasus during the Neolithic as it is too specifically Caucasian. It would have spread from the Caucasus with the Kura-Araxes expansion across the Eastern Mediterranean.

    J2a-Z8096 (under M92) is a Near Eastern Neolithic branch. It split into L556, which became one of the largest Jewish clade of J2a1, and S8230, which is found mostly in Italy and dates from the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age. Either Z8096 spread to Italy during the Neolithic and S8230 developed there, which seems rather unlikely since J2a was rare among Neolithic European farmers. Or Z8096 was in the Near East all along, and S8230 is the branch that migrated to Greece and Italy with the E-M34, T1a-CTS6507 and J1-YP4763 during the EBA Kura-Araxes expansion to the East Med, which seems more likely.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 22-02-17 at 13:05.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    327
    Points
    5,973
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,973, Level: 22
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 77
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    J2b2-L283 (and its subclade Z585) date from the Early Bronze Age. I have theorised many years ago that J2b2 reached the Pontic-Steppe and Volga-Ural region by the Neolithic and was assimilated by the Proto-Indo-Europeans, before re-expanding to Europe, Central & South Asia with the PIE invasions. Recent data and TMRCA seems to confirm this.
    Recent data in fact seems to debunk this. I wonder what data you're looking at. The Volga-Ural (Tatar) J2b2-L283 has a TMRCA of only 1550 ybp, and it falls on the bottom of L283 tree. A person from the Czech Republic tested ancestral to the Tatar subclade, which suggests their subclade likely expanded from Central Europe during the early Middle Ages. Look under J-Y12007 on bottom of tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    J2b2-M241 split into L283 and Z2432 ca. 9800 ybp (Early Neolithic): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/
    J-L283 could've still expanded from the Steppe but it should be more diverse than 1550 ybp there according to present data, if such were the case. J-L283 center of diversity seems to be in the Northern Mediterranean (Balkans, Italy, Iberia). Also the south Asian branch, J-Z2432, seems to have a Neolithic TMRCA, and I haven't seen a single person who is Z2432+ north west of the Middle East, while having the biggest presence in South Asia (India/Pakistan). This suggests that J2b2-M241 expanded during the Early Neolithic (TMRCA 9800 ybp), and most likely out of the Near East and not the Steppe (L283 to Northern Mediterranean/Europe, while Z2432 to South Asia).
    Last edited by Trojet; 23-02-17 at 01:34.

  4. #4
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    3,034
    Level
    15
    Points: 3,034, Level: 15
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 16
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Nice initiative. I have been doing the same kind of research in the last few months when I updated the haplogroup pages and phylogenetic trees.

    J-YP4763 clearly comes from the Middle East. Its age and TMRCA is estimated at 5600 years by Yfull, which was the Chalcolithic period. Phylogenetically it corresponds to the period when the Jewish and Arabic branches of J1-P58 split from one another. This one is apparently a third Semitic branch that ended up mostly in southern Italy, probably via Greece. Unfortunately we do not have the TMRCA within Italy itself, so we can't really tell if it migrated there during the Chalcolithic or later. My guess would be during the Bronze Age, following the Kura-Araxes expansion from the South Caucasus toward Anatolia and the northern Levant. This migration appears to have continued to Cyprus and Crete and could be the source of the Minoan civilisation. It would have been accompanied by E-M34, J2a and T1a lineages, that later spread to Greece and Italy.

    T1a-Y4990 and its subclade T-CTS6507 are among those lineages which I associated with the Kura-Araxes expansion. YP5441 ended up in Sardinia, but apparently not before the Early Iron Age, so my guess is that it would have been brought by the Phoenicians.

    T1a-CTS54 is 6800 years old and descends from branches found in the Fertile Crescent and Egypt. IMO, it spread to Europe during the Neolithic.

    E-Y5412 (aka FGC18412) dates from the Copper to Early Bronze Age (formed 7100 ybp, TMRCA 6200 ybp) in the Near East. I also associate it with the Kura-Araxes expansion that eventually reached Greece and Italy.

    The G2a clades you mentioned are all part of the three branches I identified as being assimilated by the Indo-Europeans in East or Southeast Europe before R1b tribes invaded Central and Western Europe. These are namely L1264, L13 and Z1816. All of them date from the Bronze Age. I associate the L13 branch with the R1a Indo-Europeans as it is most common in Baltic, Slavic and Indo-Iranian countries. G-Z29424 is an Iron Age subclade found in Iran and Central Europe, in addition to Italy. It is not clear when it entered Italy though. My guess is that it was present in eastern Europe and central Asia during the Scythian era and that it came to Italy with the Ostrogoths in the 5th century.

    In my recent update of the E1b1b page I explain that all present-day carriers of E-V13 have a TMRCA of only 4000 years, and that E-V13 branches therefore spread at the same time as R1b spread to Western and Northern Europe during the Bronze Age.

    J2b2-L283 (and its subclade Z585) date from the Early Bronze Age. I have theorised many years ago that J2b2 reached the Pontic-Steppe and Volga-Ural region by the Neolithic and was assimilated by the Proto-Indo-Europeans, before re-expanding to Europe, Central & South Asia with the PIE invasions. Recent data and TMRCA seems to confirm this.

    Two months ago, I tried to identify the J2a1 subclades associated with the Romans, and the prime candidate among them was J2a-Z435, and more specifically the PF5456 and Z2177 subclades. I proposed that either L70 was assimilated by the PIE in/around the Steppe or its subclade Z435 was assimilated in the Balkans or Central Europe by the advancing Proto-Italo-Celts before they invaded Italy. In either case Z435 would have come to Italy with the Italic invasions around 1200 BCE.

    J2a-CTS6804 is the Caucasian branch of J2a par excellence. It dates from the Neolithic, however I doubt that it spread both to Europe and the Caucasus during the Neolithic as it is too specifically Caucasian. It would have spread from the Caucasus with the Kura-Araxes expansion across the Eastern Mediterranean.

    J2a-Z8096 (under M92) is a Near Eastern Neolithic branch. It split into L556, which became one of the largest Jewish clade of J2a1, and S8230, which is found mostly in Italy and dates from the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age. Either Z8096 spread to Italy during the Neolithic and S8230 developed there, which seems rather unlikely since J2a was rare among Neolithic European farmers. Or Z8096 was in the Near East all along, and S8230 is the branch that migrated to Greece and Italy with the E-M34, T1a-CTS6507 and J1-YP4763 during the EBA Kura-Araxes expansion to the East Med, which seems more likely.
    Thanks very much, and I did notice, it inspired me to do similar research. I found similar observations in my research. For me what you said about the Minoans being the result of the Kura Araxes Culture expansion makes total sense, maybe in the future they might be able to connect Linear A and the language of the Kura Araxes Culture, also adding Eteo-Cypriot to the mix, it could be validated in the future with Y-dna and linguistics.

  5. #5
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    18-11-18
    Location
    Timmins
    Posts
    2
    Points
    486
    Level
    5
    Points: 486, Level: 5
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 64
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-Z29424
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b7

    Ethnic group
    French/Italy
    Country: Canada



    My Big Y DNA test has brought the discovery of SPN G-Z29424 when Itested in 2014.
    Of all the G tree, Z29424’s latest results show 16 parallel branches so far, there may be more branches with more testing, Still 16 parallel branches from end of Bronze age is highly unusual. We would like to find a context at the top of that tree? Where did it originate? One Z29424 sample from Romania has autosomal 22% east Europe. Was it paleo-balkanic origin? We would like to answer these questions.

  6. #6
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    28-09-19
    Posts
    56


    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    My Big Y DNA test has brought the discovery of SPN G-Z29424 when Itested in 2014.
    Of all the G tree, ’s latest results show 16 parallel branches so far, there may be more branches with more testing, Still 16 parallel branches from end of Bronze age is highly unusual. We would like to find a context at the top of that tree? Where did it originate? One Z29424 sample from Romania has autosomal 22% east Europe. Was it paleo-balkanic origin? We would like to answer these questions.
    Hi brother! G-Z6764 > Z29424 (predicted by me), and X2e.
    Last edited by I(); 03-10-19 at 17:50.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •