R1b-M269>PF7562

Arame

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The user Arthwr has a made a map about R1b-PF7562 branch

He compiled data from academic papers and got this numbers

[FONT=&quot]Kosovo - 9/114 (7,89 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Macedonia - 4/79 (5,06 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Albania - 11/223 (4,93 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Serbia - 7/235 (2,98 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Armenia - 5/176 (2,84 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cyprus - 16/574 (2,79 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lezgins - 1/41 (2,44 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tabasarans - 1/43 (2,33 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Greece - 8/347 (2,31 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Crete - 4/193 (2,07 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Turkey - 15/737 (2,04 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romania - 10/527 (1,9 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bashkirs - 10/586 (1,71 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Herzegovina - 2/141 (1,42 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Italy - 5/359 (1,39 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bosnia - 1/78 (1,28 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Syria - 1/81 (1,23 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Switzerland - 2/175 (1,14 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hungary - 4/370 (1,08 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bulgaria - 10/931 (1,07 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Germany - 4/378 (1,06 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sardinia - 10/1204 (0,83 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Slovenia - 4/501 (0,8 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Iran - 10/1303 (0,77 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mongolia - 1/160 (0,63 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Palestinians - 1/170 (0,59 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Portugal - 1/190 (0,53 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Denmark - 1/215 (0,47 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Poland - 1/252 (0,4 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ukraine - 2/596 (0,34 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Russians - 3/1093 (0,27 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jordan - 1/392 (0,26 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Afghanistan - 1/507 (0,2 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]France - 1/535 (0,19 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Croatia - 1/828 (0,12 %);[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Spain - 1/1122 (0,09 %).

http://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.am/

This branch is an excellent candidat to be a Hittite lineage because it splits before L23

Maciamo can You add this branch in Your R1b Eupedia page?

[/FONT]
 
It is a good candidate indeed, however 2.04% in Turkey ? you would expect the Hittites to have made a more visible contribution than this.
 
It's a shame that it has such a low frequency in Turkey, because it does seem like a good candidate.

Maybe it had a stronger presence in the past, but decreased because of sea peoples invasions, if it was a Hittite subclade then it must have existed among the upper class of the Hittite empire, the nobility are usually especially targeted and killed in the case of invasions and not among the common people who are subdued by the new conquerors.

Or maybe the Hittites were mixed originally before they migrate from Maykop ?? maybe alongside a Caucasian haplogroup like J2 or G2. If it is Hittite then why does it exist in the Balkans ? was there any relation between Maykop and Ezero cultures ?
 
Thanks for sharing. I have now added PF7562 to the R1b tree.

R1b-tree.png


It looks like this branch represents a migration out of the Pontic Steppe just before the Yamna period, and would therefore correspond to the Sredny Stog culture or the Khvalynsk culture. Since it appears to be a migration toward the Balkans, I would go with the western Sredny Stog culture. The presence of PF7562 to Turkey and Armenia would be attributable to later migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia and Armenia, such as the Phrygians (alongside other haplogroups, including other branches of R1b that came to the Balkans during the Yamna period).
 
Thanks for sharing. I have now added PF7562 to the R1b tree.

R1b-tree.png


It looks like this branch represents a migration out of the Pontic Steppe just before the Yamna period, and would therefore correspond to the Sredny Stog culture or the Khvalynsk culture. Since it appears to be a migration toward the Balkans, I would go with the western Sredny Stog culture. The presence of PF7562 to Turkey and Armenia would be attributable to later migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia and Armenia, such as the Phrygians (alongside other haplogroups, including other branches of R1b that came to the Balkans during the Yamna period).

If this branch isn't Hittite then what ? no other subclade of R1a or R1b is fit to have been present among the Anatolian Indo-Europeans. btw the tree hasn't been modified.
 
If this branch isn't Hittite then what ? no other subclade of R1a or R1b is fit to have been present among the Anatolian Indo-Europeans. btw the tree hasn't been modified.

You need to clear your browser cache to see the updated tree.

All I can say now is that the PF7562 branch appears to be related to the Sredny Stog incursions into the Balkans from 4200 to 3500 BCE. It isn't clear whether the Hittites descend from this pre-Yamna migration or not. Linguistically Hittite and other Anatolian IE languages are archaic and appear to have split long before the other branches split from each others. However the Hittites only show up in 1600 BCE, nearly 2000 years after the Yamna culture began and many centuries after R1b reached western Europe.
 
Yes the fact that Anatolian languages are archaic compared to other branches of IE is key here, this suggests the Anatolians lived in separate culture than other IE tribes who originated in yamna, Hittites do appear around 1600 BC coincidentally with other IE nations like the Mittani and maybe the Kassites (earlier rulers had indo-Aryan names, later rulers seem to have adopted semetic names), which may suggest the Hittites are R1a like the last two, but the Mittani clearly had an indo-aryan language similar to Sanskrit while the Hittites are very ancient and unrelated.

I may sound crazy but what if .. the M335 at the top of the tree is the Hittite branch ?? it stayed in Anatolia (or in Maykop ?? then Anatolia) while the main branch crossed the Caucasus, it developed a distinct IE language separate from developments in Yamna ? what am I talking about .. I forgot the V88 branch ... well .. what if the V88 branch also spoke something resembling IE but was never documented ?

M335 is not even 0.5% in Turkey. The Hittites are for sure good at getting extinct, so much for that theory.

WHAT IN SEVEN HELLS WERE THEY .. I WANT TO KNOW
 
Super Interesting. L23 isn't the only successful form of M269. R1b PF7562's popularity in Italy to me indicates there's SE European ancestry in Italy, which could have brought J2 and E1b V13 as well. But that's just speculation, I'm waiting for ancient DNA.
 
Yes the fact that Anatolian languages are archaic compared to other branches of IE is key here, this suggests the Anatolians lived in separate culture than other IE tribes who originated in yamna, Hittites do appear around 1600 BC coincidentally with other IE nations like the Mittani and maybe the Kassites (earlier rulers had indo-Aryan names, later rulers seem to have adopted semetic names), which may suggest the Hittites are R1a like the last two, but the Mittani clearly had an indo-aryan language similar to Sanskrit while the Hittites are very ancient and unrelated.

I may sound crazy but what if .. the M335 at the top of the tree is the Hittite branch ?? it stayed in Anatolia (or in Maykop ?? then Anatolia) while the main branch crossed the Caucasus, it developed a distinct IE language separate from developments in Yamna ? what am I talking about .. I forgot the V88 branch ... well .. what if the V88 branch also spoke something resembling IE but was never documented ?

M335 is not even 0.5% in Turkey. The Hittites are for sure good at getting extinct, so much for that theory.

WHAT IN SEVEN HELLS WERE THEY .. I WANT TO KNOW

We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

I'm not convinced, but we'll see.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32954-Steppe-as-secondary-PIE?highlight=Johannes+Krause
 
We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

I'm not convinced, but we'll see.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32954-Steppe-as-secondary-PIE?highlight=Johannes+Krause

Perhaps that is the scenario that you imagined in your mind, but I don't see any similarity with the PIE migration map proposed by Johannes Krause.

attachment.php



His map indicates that IE languages spread once with Neolithic farmers from the Levant (red line) and a second time from the Caucasus/Northern Mesopotamia (green line). This is just not possible. Besides, I am surprised that Krause would believe that Indo-Iranian speakers originated in the Zagros region (like Goga would have it) and not from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe where the oldest R1a-M417 was clearly shown to have originated. I think you are letting your respect for Krause overshadow what he is actually saying, and distort his ideas into what you would like him to be saying.
 
Perhaps that is the scenario that you imagined in your mind, but I don't see any similarity with the PIE migration map proposed by Johannes Krause.

His map indicates that IE languages spread once with Neolithic farmers from the Levant (red line) and a second time from the Caucasus/Northern Mesopotamia (green line). This is just not possible. Besides, I am surprised that Krause would believe that Indo-Iranian speakers originated in the Zagros region (like Goga would have it) and not from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe where the oldest R1a-M417 was clearly shown to have originated. I think you are letting your respect for Krause overshadow what he is actually saying, and distort his ideas into what you would like him to be saying.

Clearly, the red line doesn't mark the spread of Indo-European languages per se, but the influence of the neolithic phenomenon in the formative stages of PIE. Even orthodox scholars like Sergent and Witzel who assume that all IE languages dispersed from the steppe posit a proto-stage in the Middle East to account for the linguistic and cultural affinities of Indo-European.

I.E. is assigned a reasonable age of 8,000 BP on the map, so it postdates the neolithic movement into the Balkans.
 
Clearly, the red line doesn't mark the spread of Indo-European languages per se, but the influence of the neolithic phenomenon in the formative stages of PIE. Even orthodox scholars like Sergent and Witzel who assume that all IE languages dispersed from the steppe posit a proto-stage in the Middle East to account for the linguistic and cultural affinities of Indo-European.

I.E. is assigned a reasonable age of 8,000 BP on the map, so it postdates the neolithic movement into the Balkans.

There was no article or video linked with the map that Angela posted. All she mentions is that Krause proposed an alternate model for the spread of IE languages, in which the Steppe diffusion was only secondary, and the main source of IE languages was in the Near East. It would be highly confusing to accompany that with a map showing the diffusion of agriculture if Krause didn't mean that the primary diffusion of IE languages was that agricultural diffusion (red line).

If he means that IE languages originated south of the Caucasus with Neolithic R1b cattle herders, that has been my theory since I first gave my opinion on the subject in 2009 and there is nothing novel or alternate about it. Considering that Eupedia is one of the most visited websites about historical population genetics it would be surprising if at least some people in the Reich's lab had not read my R1b page. After all I have had request to reprint my maps from many universities and professors, and others (like Mark Thomas of UCL and ISOGG) went on and used them without asking permission at all.


As for PIE dating from c. 8,000 BP, that is reasonable, but by that time R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 were in the Khvalynsk culture in the Steppe, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say that the Indo-Iranian invasions started from the South Caucasus. After all, results from the Reich lab itself showed that there was no EHG or WHG in the Caucasus during the Neolithic, and that it only arrived from the Late Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. Modern Iranians and Indian Brahmins, Pakistanis and Pathans have about 13% of North European (Mesolithic European) admixture today. How else to explain it if R1a-Z93 didn't originate in NE Europe, but in the Near East as Krause proposes?
 
There was no article or video linked with the map that Angela posted. All she mentions is that Krause proposed an alternate model for the spread of IE languages, in which the Steppe diffusion was only secondary, and the main source of IE languages was in the Near East. It would be highly confusing to accompany that with a map showing the diffusion of agriculture if Krause didn't mean that the primary diffusion of IE languages was that agricultural diffusion (red line).

If he means that IE languages originated south of the Caucasus with Neolithic R1b cattle herders, that has been my theory since I first gave my opinion on the subject in 2009 and there is nothing novel or alternate about it. Considering that Eupedia is one of the most visited websites about historical population genetics it would be surprising if at least some people in the Reich's lab had not read my R1b page. After all I have had request to reprint my maps from many universities and professors, and others (like Mark Thomas of UCL and ISOGG) went on and used them without asking permission at all.


As for PIE dating from c. 8,000 BP, that is reasonable, but by that time R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 were in the Khvalynsk culture in the Steppe, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say that the Indo-Iranian invasions started from the South Caucasus. After all, results from the Reich lab itself showed that there was no EHG or WHG in the Caucasus during the Neolithic, and that it only arrived from the Late Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. Modern Iranians and Indian Brahmins, Pakistanis and Pathans have about 13% of North European (Mesolithic European) admixture today. How else to explain it if R1a-Z93 didn't originate in NE Europe, but in the Near East as Krause proposes?

On the second glance, the inclusion of the Natufian complex and the given date of 44,000 BP probably means that Krause et al. subscribe to Lazaridis' quite outlandish theory of a Middle Eastern 'Mousterian' Basal Eurasian, so the red line should perhaps be not interpreted as merely the spread of agriculture but the spread of the population that mixed with the indigenous West Eurasian and Central Eurasian branches to give birth to EEF, CHG and so forth. Its inclusion would make more sense then, since this movement of people would have brought with it the both Middle-Eastern languages and the population dynamic that facilitated the agricultural revolution.

About the derivation of Indo-Iranian from Iran I'm not sure. Perhaps they have access to as yet unpublished samples? Or they might simply believe that the spread of Indo-European wasn't firmly tied to any particular uniparental marker?
 
About the derivation of Indo-Iranian from Iran I'm not sure. Perhaps they have access to as yet unpublished samples? Or they might simply believe that the spread of Indo-European wasn't firmly tied to any particular uniparental marker?

A sample that has the power to contradict all other samples tested to date?
 
For clarity, this was my post:


We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

I'm not convinced, but we'll see."

I don't know what Krause(and perhaps Haak) mean(s) by including the Neolithic migration path to the map, as to my knowledge no one has reported or recorded what he said at that meeting. If someone has additional information, that would be interesting.

The fact that he (they) may be heading toward a theory of two staging grounds for PIE, south and then north of the Caucasus, or, in addition, that he might be supportive of some role for the Neolithic in the development of PIE, doesn't mean that I agree with him.
 
For clarity, this was my post:


We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

I'm not convinced, but we'll see."

I don't know what Krause(and perhaps Haak) mean(s) by including the Neolithic migration path to the map, as to my knowledge no one has reported or recorded what he said at that meeting. If someone has additional information, that would be interesting.

The fact that he (they) may be heading toward a theory of two staging grounds for PIE, south and then north of the Caucasus, or, in addition, that he might be supportive of some role for the Neolithic in the development of PIE, doesn't mean that I agree with him.

In terms of linguistics, the only way a PIE origin in the South Caucasus could make sense is if the Anatolian branch of IE languages (Hittite, Luwian, etc.) split before crossing the Caucasus, because all the other main branches split around the same time and that time coincides with the Yamna period. However there are many problems with the Anatolian branch splitting up so early. First, as I said above, the Hittites only appear around 1600 BCE, nearly 2000 years after the start of Yamna. Secondly, they had the same Steppe technologies (bronze, horses and even chariots) as other IE tribes, and they simply couldn't have arrived with that whole IE Steppe package if they had always remained south of the Caucasus (especially chariots, which were still brand new at the time and hadn't reached central or western Europe yet). Then in terms of haplogroups, there is just no old branch of R1b (slightly older than Z2103 and L51) or R1a (slightly older than M417) present in Anatolia in large number enough that would point to a pre-Yamna split of the Anatolian IE. The only good candidate was this PF7562, but as its distribution just doesn't correspond (if the above map is remotely correct).

In any case I didn't see anything in Krause's map that indicated that the Anatolian branch was the one that originated south of the Caucasus. He clearly showed that he thought it was the Indo-Iranian branch that did. There is a green arrow going left to south-west Anatolia, almost the only part of Anatolia that was not part of the Hittite Empire.
 
Then in terms of haplogroups, there is just no old branch of R1b (slightly older than Z2103 and L51) or R1a (slightly older than M417) present in Anatolia in large number enough that would point to a pre-Yamna split of the Anatolian IE. The only good candidate was this PF7562, but as its distribution just doesn't correspond (if the above map is remotely correct).
My three cents on that matter:
ct1: I don't believe that the data and maps are for real .There's a good deal of spirited thinking in these claims. The 193 Cretans, for instance, can only be from the research of King 2008. He didn't break down R1b past M269. He provided STR data for E-V13 and J2 subgroups, but not for R groups. There is no way to deduce anything below M269 from his data. Greek data may as well be estimates - all of them are from a time before researchers could get past the M269 in the eastern branches. Many other data, even newer ones, may be faulty as well. It is not allowable to say that all non-L51 are automatically Z2103, or all non-L23 are PF7563, as it seems to be done (to me at least) from a short look at the data.

ct2: It is not necessary to see anatolian languages as archaic compared to all other IE languages. They have a different development, but they can by no means regarded as more original or conserving - on the contrary, some features look almost 'modern'. There is this thought that PIE is the accumulation of all features that any IE language has, and all what is lost from this pseudo-PIE is modern, and everything else is archaic. I'd say that this is simply rubbish. Anatolian languages' split off isn't much earlier than other languages, at least linguistics has no proof for such a claim.

ct3: Voskarides 2016 in his Cyprus study tells that M589, which is downwards of Z2103, could be found in Cyprus and Anatolia, but not in the Balkans or Crete. If there is a subgroup that HAS BY ALL MEANS to suit to the anatolian language group, this is a decent candidate. It's good within the time frame and its limitation to Anatolia fulfills the demands as well.
 
My three cents on that matter:
ct1: I don't believe that the data and maps are for real .There's a good deal of spirited thinking in these claims. The 193 Cretans, for instance, can only be from the research of King 2008. He didn't break down R1b past M269. He provided STR data for E-V13 and J2 subgroups, but not for R groups. There is no way to deduce anything below M269 from his data. Greek data may as well be estimates - all of them are from a time before researchers could get past the M269 in the eastern branches. Many other data, even newer ones, may be faulty as well. It is not allowable to say that all non-L51 are automatically Z2103, or all non-L23 are PF7563, as it seems to be done (to me at least) from a short look at the data.

Crete:
A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

Greece:
Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan
Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma
Large-scale recent expansion of European patrilineages shown by population resequencing
A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

etc.
 
ct1: I don't believe that the data and maps are for real .There's a good deal of spirited thinking in these claims. The 193 Cretans, for instance, can only be from the research of King 2008. He didn't break down R1b past M269. He provided STR data for E-V13 and J2 subgroups, but not for R groups. There is no way to deduce anything below M269 from his data. Greek data may as well be estimates - all of them are from a time before researchers could get past the M269 in the eastern branches. Many other data, even newer ones, may be faulty as well. It is not allowable to say that all non-L51 are automatically Z2103, or all non-L23 are PF7563, as it seems to be done (to me at least) from a short look at the data.

Crete:
A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe


Greece:
Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan
Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma
Large-scale recent expansion of European patrilineages shown by population resequencing
A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe


etc.
 
Well…being me, just to put it out there.
M269>PF7562 (my side of the story) . Before going there…. Would love to know what haplotypes do Bagvalins (50-70% r1b) really have.


M269 was born in shulaveri shomu in south Caucasus (70000- 6000bc). So was PF7562 and L23 (6000bc-5000bc). Maybe some clade in Armenia (so Aratashen) and even some part of Halaf maybe. But in Georgia, by 4900BC something powerfull came and dislodge them really fast. Some moved north of Caucasus (can’t believe Krause choose “my” 4.900bc and not say a date like 5000bc) and there were L23 in it. Same event sent part of them up to the mountains to run away from whatever and became part populations of Dagestan, especially the one deep in the mountains such as bagvalal (70% r1b??) and tindal (J2?) and even south Ossetes. Some ran south of black sea ( I still think Kum6 as a Shulaveri woman, but Davidski garantees no CHG In her) and naturally into Balkans (PF7562?).
Well
For some that do not know the rest of “my story”… the ones I really care about are the ones I think became Merimda and El-omari in 5th milenia and after the 5,9Kiloyear event start arriving to Iberia by 3,500bc, with fleeing north Africa populations that I think those days had a lot of WHG admix and those descendants of el-omari were the ones that became Bell beakers.
Pretty Crazy I know… but I will be right in the end.
 

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