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Thread: Afanasievo was R1b1a2

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    finally we see some more of the advance of Y-DNA N westbound into Siberia
    it's a pitty we don't have any subclades, just NOxO

    till now we just had 1 individual N in Smolensk area 4.5 ka and the 'K' in Bajkal Kitoi, which IMO is N, though we don't have subclades there either
    How about this one?

    Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia
    "Below is a table of ancient DNA results from a recent study on uniparental genetic diversity in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia. The oldest sample is that of a ~6,000 year-old hunter-gatherer belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a1 and mtDNA H. Note also the presence of the typically Uralic Y-haplogroup N1c in a couple of the younger samples."

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQMlJFLUlUb3hkb2M/view
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02...rn-russia.html


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    The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    How about this one?

    Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia
    "Below is a table of ancient DNA results from a recent study on uniparental genetic diversity in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia. The oldest sample is that of a ~6,000 year-old hunter-gatherer belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a1 and mtDNA H. Note also the presence of the typically Uralic Y-haplogroup N1c in a couple of the younger samples."

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQMlJFLUlUb3hkb2M/view
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02...rn-russia.html

    it's the same one, Smolensk Area = Upper Dvina region

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.
    I have the same feeling.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    and how about
    Sintashta-Andronovo-Scythian?
    From left Estonia CW, Samara Outlier, the guys who resemble the BA Steppe the most. Next 3 similar population of Steppe. You can see Baloch rising and Med dropping, which tells us that they have more East Yamnaya in them than Estonian CW. If Andronovo migrated from CW they have picked up more East Yamnaya on their way. Last two are Scythian and Yamnayan. Here the Scythian looks like a mix between Andronovo and East Yamnaya, but with a twist. He also has additional Siberian, and higher Caucasian, the latter from Transcaucasian source.
    It is possible that Scythian has nothing much to do with East Yamnaya but is from Andronovo population, which with time mixed with 10% more Siberian/NE Asian/American source, and about 10% with Iranian/Caucasian (IE back migration, or from constant contact between Iranian tribes?).
    M913021 Rise00 M630274 I0432, R1a Z93 M690970 Rise386, Z93 M217196 I0430, R1a Z93 M608028 RISE505 M348213 i0247 M828815 Rise552
    Estonia CW 4 kya Samara Poltavka outlier 2925-2536 BC Sintashta 4kya Srubna 3.5kya Andronovo scythian Ulan iV, Yamnaya 4.5 kya
    Run Time 8.05 Run time 7.79 Run time 3.81 Run time 8.02 Run time 13.24 Run time 11.07 Run time 9.08
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 0.54 S-Indian 0.67 S-Indian -
    Baloch 14.27 Baloch 14.7 Baloch 18.5 Baloch 19.86 Baloch 21.23 Baloch 24.99 Baloch 33.24
    Caucasian - Caucasian - Caucasian 2.01 Caucasian 2.35 Caucasian 2.4 Caucasian 7.68 Caucasian 6.58
    NE-Euro 59.09 NE-Euro 63.14 NE-Euro 57.8 NE-Euro 55.13 NE-Euro 56.39 NE-Euro 45.27 NE-Euro 56.02
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.83 SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.8 Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 1.93 Siberian 6.39 Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian 1.31 NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American - American 0.91 American 1.05 American 2.85 American 2.46
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0.56 Beringian - Beringian 1.22 Beringian 1.4 Beringian 0.75
    Mediterranean 25.26 Mediterranean 22.15 Mediterranean 19.92 Mediterranean 21.67 Mediterranean 14.37 Mediterranean 8.62 Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San - San - San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African 0.07 E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.06 Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.5 W-African - W-African 1.2 W-African - W-African 0.81 W-African - W-African 0.95
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    From left Estonia CW, Samara Outlier, the guys who resemble the BA Steppe the most. Next 3 similar population of Steppe. You can see Baloch rising and Med dropping, which tells us that they have more East Yamnaya in them than Estonian CW. If Andronovo migrated from CW they have picked up more East Yamnaya on their way. Last two are Scythian and Yamnayan. Here the Scythian looks like a mix between Andronovo and East Yamnaya, but with a twist. He also has additional Siberian, and higher Caucasian, the latter from Transcaucasian source.
    It is possible that Scythian has nothing much to do with East Yamnaya but is from Andronovo population, which with time mixed with 10% more Siberian/NE Asian/American source, and about 10% with Iranian/Caucasian (IE back migration, or from constant contact between Iranian tribes?).
    M913021 Rise00 M630274 I0432, R1a Z93 M690970 Rise386, Z93 M217196 I0430, R1a Z93 M608028 RISE505 M348213 i0247 M828815 Rise552
    Estonia CW 4 kya Samara Poltavka outlier 2925-2536 BC Sintashta 4kya Srubna 3.5kya Andronovo scythian Ulan iV, Yamnaya 4.5 kya
    Run Time 8.05 Run time 7.79 Run time 3.81 Run time 8.02 Run time 13.24 Run time 11.07 Run time 9.08
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 0.54 S-Indian 0.67 S-Indian -
    Baloch 14.27 Baloch 14.7 Baloch 18.5 Baloch 19.86 Baloch 21.23 Baloch 24.99 Baloch 33.24
    Caucasian - Caucasian - Caucasian 2.01 Caucasian 2.35 Caucasian 2.4 Caucasian 7.68 Caucasian 6.58
    NE-Euro 59.09 NE-Euro 63.14 NE-Euro 57.8 NE-Euro 55.13 NE-Euro 56.39 NE-Euro 45.27 NE-Euro 56.02
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.83 SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.8 Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 1.93 Siberian 6.39 Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian 1.31 NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American - American 0.91 American 1.05 American 2.85 American 2.46
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0.56 Beringian - Beringian 1.22 Beringian 1.4 Beringian 0.75
    Mediterranean 25.26 Mediterranean 22.15 Mediterranean 19.92 Mediterranean 21.67 Mediterranean 14.37 Mediterranean 8.62 Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San - San - San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African 0.07 E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.06 Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.5 W-African - W-African 1.2 W-African - W-African 0.81 W-African - W-African 0.95
    There's a possibility that we may not yet have the exact population from which Andronovo derived.


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    I taught both Andronovo and Srubnaya were Sintashta-derived.
    But both got some extra Baloch and some less NE-Euro.
    When Sintashta appeared Eastern Yamna seems to have disappeared, but sure there must have been remnants of them in some remote areas.

    As for Scythian, we don't know where exactly it originated. Maybe in the Altaï Mts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I have the same feeling.
    Skin pigmentation is a multi-genetic trait. That's why in criminal forensics you need much more than just two to make a prediction. I've posted links to the tests previously. They have a very high accuracy rate. Population geneticists use those tests for making predictions. I know that Lazaridis does, for example. TYR is pretty important in that regard. Also, OCA2/HERC 2, which codes for blue eyes, also affects skin pigmentation to some degree.

    There are a lot of Middle Easterners who have two copies of derived SLC24A5 but only one or no copies of derived SLC42A5, and they're not Tamil brown. Indeed, there are Mediterranean Europeans with two copies of derived SLC24A5 but only one copy of derived SLC42A5, but perhaps because of TYR and some other minor effect genes they have what's usually called an olive complexion. I would be willing to bet that's what Sophia Loren probably has, for instance.


    So, we don't know the precise color of the skin of the WHG, but we know they were darker than the first Anatolian farmers, and, in fact, the EEF became darker through admixture with them, especially in Spain, going by the results of the Spanish Neolithic.
    Last edited by Angela; 03-03-17 at 05:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
    shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???
    That guy was a shaman.
    I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

    original Borreby sample:


    I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
    Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

    Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.
    Eneolithic population is a mixed physical type, "formed in the process of long-term contacts" Mongoloids and Caucasians
    http://altarcheomuseum.wixsite.com/altai-archeology/eneolithic

    Archaeologically before 2,000bc, the yellow zone might be a bridge between pontic steppe and the Altai. So there was copper mining in east Ural around fourth millennium BC, but in sintashta around 2,000bc. I think it could be very difficult to pass the steppe by walking without the transportation. I think Human wisdom made people to use forest steppe of the red zone. I think that is why David Anthony tried to connect botai horse-riding culture to both of Yamna and afanasievo, but it is less persuasive.



    T.A. Chikisheva defines them anthropologically as Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation and Southern Eurasian Anthropological Formation. Studies found anthropological continuity between the people of the Neolithic and Ust-Tartas cultures in the Baraba steppe. Evidence indicates an influx of Bolshemys culture from the Barnaul-Biysk-Ob area or their descendants into the anthropological milieu of Ust-Tartas culture of the Baraba province.
    In the Early Bronze Age (3200–2300 BC), the population of the Baraba steppe retained capacity of the indigenous anthropological substrate, having assimilated the migrant Bolshemys Culture. The Ust-Tartas Culture, in turn, was replaced by the anthropological complex of the Odinov culture, and later by Krotov culture, with the anthropological composition of the population containing only autochthonous morphological complex.[
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture
    Last edited by johen; 05-03-17 at 07:36.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I taught both Andronovo and Srubnaya were Sintashta-derived.
    But both got some extra Baloch and some less NE-Euro.
    When Sintashta appeared Eastern Yamna seems to have disappeared, but sure there must have been remnants of them in some remote areas.

    As for Scythian, we don't know where exactly it originated. Maybe in the Altaï Mts.
    Probably not Altai, because at roughly same time people living there had way more Siberian and East Asian admixtures, and less NE Euro. A big change from Afansievo population, who lived there 2ky before. But not yet Mongolien like, who have 40% of NE Asian in them. I'm sure Scythian will be mostly Bronze Age Steppe genetics with extra Siberian and Iranian/Caucasian.

    F999969 Rise607 F999965 Rise902
    Altai, Russia, Verh-Uimon, 2kya Russia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai 2kya
    Run time 11.91 Run time 9.23
    S-Indian - S-Indian 0.92
    Baloch 18.57 Baloch 19.12
    Caucasian 1.12 Caucasian 7.36
    NE-Euro 29.87 NE-Euro 32.39
    SE-Asian 0.97 SE-Asian 0.28
    Siberian 20.18 Siberian 22.17
    NE-Asian 11.59 NE-Asian 6.52
    Papuan 1.39 Papuan -
    American 4.06 American 4.3
    Beringian 5.05 Beringian 4.25
    Mediterranean 6.6 Mediterranean 1.18
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.59 W-African 1.52

    Any idea about haplogroups of these guys? I wonder if R1b was still left in Altai, or Afansievo completely vacated the area? Though there is some Med and Caucasian admixture in these guys, sign of Afansievo guys. These admixtures have no place in Siberia without European Steppe people.

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    The cultural package that archaeologists consider 'Scythian' seems to have arisen in some place in the triangle od Mongolia-Kazakhstan-Harappa. The author of this paper seems to believe that the animal style art was a local adaption of southern Harappan art which the steppe dwellers sought to imitate.

    https://www.csen.org/BAR%20Book/06%2...3)Iron.Int.pdf

    I think this would be more or less in accord with the available historical accounts that generally have the Scythians migrating from the east into Europe. Of course, the question is whether everything that looks Scythian actually is Scythian in the sense of being speakers of Iranian. One can really only speculative with these pre-literate cultures. What's more, the populations of the steppes also seemed to have mixed with one another quite freely, which complicates things even further.

    The latter is also why I'd think that the demic impact of the original Scythian population would have been pretty small once they'd arrived in the extreme west of Russia.

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    My friend looked at Afanasevo. He says they are almost certainly Z2103.

    Bolshemis is P297 xM269

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    Arame...what is Bolshemis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    That guy was a shaman.
    I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

    original Borreby sample:


    I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
    Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

    Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.

    this Borreby you post is the paradigm which gave its name to the "type"; it's my "B-borreby', with something more akin to the 'brünn-capelle' phylum - an other sub-brahcy types existed in Sth Scandinavia too, very different, more 'croma' with less brutal traits, lower skull but "fuller", more steepy frontal, broader jaw, smaller orbits, I think it has been found in Hvellinge or a name like that, not sure, it's my "B-borreby" (for what it's worth!) -
    my post was a bet, I would have liked having the profile picture and look at the antero-posterior position of cheek-bones, not a drawing, not a reconstruction - but, yes, it's true, it could be the type of first N-E European foragers, as a whole closer to paleo-europoids, but with something vaguely 'mongoloid'; not a crossing, rather a less evolved (speaking of bones) pop - but all that is "it could be"... (sometimes I found that some Coreans could have inherited of this type at individual level, and some Amerindians too (not all,concerning features).The later 'mongoloid' input in Sth-Siberia at Bronze/Iron change was more marked and typical, and as a whole very different, skull and body included -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    do you think Bolshemys R1b could be a direct ancestor of afanasievo?

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    Johen

    No. Afanasievo came from Pontic Steppe. Bolshemys was a dead end.

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    ....................................
    Last edited by Rethel; 01-04-17 at 17:35.

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    myself to myself (erratum)
    ...an other sub-brahcy types existed in Sth Scandinavia too, very different, more 'croma' with less brutal traits, lower skull but "fuller", more steepy frontal, broader jaw, smaller orbits, I think it has been found in Hvellinge or a name like that, not sure, it's my "B-borreby" (for what it's worth!) -
    in fact, my "A-borreby" !!!
    all the way these sub-brachy' types seem not older than about the 3000 BC in Denmark and do ressemble neither to the basis of the Steppic mix EHG/CHG nor to the precedent WHG - we have only our imagination without more data: 'alpine' input upon more "archaic" types? or a pop come from East through the South Finland/North Russia??? with some tiny pseudo 'east-asian' o rather 'siberian' input??? a tendancy towards light pigmentation in the forementioned area and the today rather light pigmentation of the types seems excluding the tempting 'alpine' input - a previously Y-Q pop? Uneasy to say. Crossings and isolation can produce so surprising phenotypes...

    that said to come back to the thread, Afanasyevo did not come from Yamna pops, but rather both pops had a Central Asian pop common ancestors I think.-I wonder if R1a and R1b had not had tight and during enough contacts in East Steppes and North and shared since a long time a lot of females lineages; without speaking of their very ancient common origin - these clannic groups could have shared or exchanged a lot of females without breaking their so sacred male lineages.
    concerning Eastern Scythians I'm not sure they originated in Altai; Altai was an edge of their vaste and maybe unstable territory where they met East Asian origin people come there since beginning of IA (or very LBA): a come back in Altai of East Asian previously expelled by Steppic tribes of West; Pazyryk culture is the result of their meating?

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    Sorry I'm not clear - the hypothetic Y-Q I speak of would only be the rare males of the 'siberian' part of the complex group of these sub-brachy robust types if they really came from North-East Europe (to be proved) - all that is very hypothetic, a "loud voice brain storm" of mine.

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    Now we know why Tokharians spoke centum, genes. wow!

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