Afanasievo was R1b1a2

The longest genetic close continuity of steppe nations (that we found so far) is so far Yamnaya-Afansievo-Scythian:
Yamnaya
M828815 Rise552M828784Rise511M348213i0247
Ulan iV, Yamnaya 4.5 kyaAfanasievoscythian
Run time 9.08Run time9.7Run time11.07
S-Indian -S-Indian-S-Indian0.67
Baloch 33.24Baloch28.13Baloch24.99
Caucasian 6.58Caucasian2.18Caucasian7.68
NE-Euro 56.02NE-Euro63.76NE-Euro45.27
SE-Asian -SE-Asian-SE-Asian0.83
Siberian -Siberian1.64Siberian6.39
NE-Asian -NE-Asian-NE-Asian1.31
Papuan -Papuan-Papuan-
American 2.46American3.56American2.85
Beringian 0.75Beringian-Beringian1.4
Mediterranean -Mediterranean-Mediterranean8.62
SW-Asian -SW-Asian-SW-Asian-
San -San-San-
E-African -E-African-E-African-
Pygmy -Pygmy-Pygmy-
W-African 0.95W-African0.72W-African-

and how about
Sintashta-Andronovo-Scythian?
 
No big surprise for Afanasievo's R1b-M269. I have been saying it since 2009.

Okunevo's NO(xO) might be Siberian N1c, which spread from Mongolia/Manchuria to Northeast Europe, although at a much earlier date. This could be a second migration from Mongolia, this time accompanied by Q1a-L54.

It's not impossible that a very small percentage of Q1a came into Europe with the Proto-Uralic N1c migration circa 5000 BCE. After all Q1a was found in the Khvalynsk culture. Q1a-L54 is ancestral to all Mongolian people, but also to Amerindians and to half of Scandinavian Q1a (the other branch being Q-L527). That would explain how that particular Q1a got into Northeast Europe. Note how L54's brother clade, YP4004 is now found in Siberia, Poland and the North Caucasus. It might have come to Europe together with N1c and Q1a-L54 (presumably the Q-L804 subclade). L-804 formed 15,000 years ago, but nearly went extinct after coming to Europe. Its TMRCA is only 3,000 years old. It might have been present in the Volga-Ural and Finland before that but only one individual survived in Scandinavia and became the ancestor of all Q-L804 today.

Q1a-tree.png
 
Last edited:
Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
Some reconstruction:

Afanasevo Culture
35a27e7e1333.jpg


Bol'shemysskaya Culture
833645_bf93038edbe4911247f1ff32304def35.png_srz_290_448_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_png_srz


Okunevo Culture
1399000657_58503200.png


I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???

the mt-DNA can abuse us: if it has been a first strong input of bunches of east-asian females, but after that only additions of new west-eurasian males, the auDNA, if 50/50 at first, could reverse quickly enough to majority of westeurasian DNA, keeping the deep mark of east-asian DNA because transmitted only by mums to their children: a not too fool hypothesis; this dychotomy between Hg, Y or mt, compared to auDNA, when complicated contacts/absorbtions of pops have occurred, has been discussed here and there before -
in Slavs it seems the contrary occurred: after crossings and come back West, the new introductions of western females can have erased ancient east-asian (weak enough) mt-DNA,all that giving the impression of "purity" spite some east-asian auDNA is found (weaker yet, of course).
 

Surely you know, a tree is not a wood - 2 among how much tested? that's the question; and we don't know if EDAR was not present long ago among central Eurasians before a specialization very stronger among future 'mongoloids'? Some Scandinavians HGs had EDAR; did they inherited it from crossings with far East-Asians or only from deep ancestry from Central Asia before genic redistributions?
a (pheno)type is constituted by the concentration in a pop of some statistically dominant traits, dense here, absent or very rare in other pops - this racialization process, never complete among too mobile humans, put some people to believe the presence of a rare supposed "exotic" trait among a pop is the sign of more or less recent crossings between well formed types; it's often the case, but sometimes this traits are ancient enough and inherited before the process of partial "racialization" has begun -
that said I don't see why a few crossings would not have occurred in the far eastern Steppes at those times, even if the input was weak...
 
finally we see some more of the advance of Y-DNA N westbound into Siberia
it's a pitty we don't have any subclades, just NOxO

till now we just had 1 individual N in Smolensk area 4.5 ka and the 'K' in Bajkal Kitoi, which IMO is N, though we don't have subclades there either
How about this one?

Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia
"Below is a table of ancient DNA results from a recent study on uniparental genetic diversity in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia. The oldest sample is that of a ~6,000 year-old hunter-gatherer belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a1 and mtDNA H. Note also the presence of the typically Uralic Y-haplogroup N1c in a couple of the younger samples."

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQMlJFLUlUb3hkb2M/view
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02/ancient-r1a1-and-n1c-from-western-russia.html

 
The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.
 
How about this one?

Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia
"Below is a table of ancient DNA results from a recent study on uniparental genetic diversity in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia. The oldest sample is that of a ~6,000 year-old hunter-gatherer belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a1 and mtDNA H. Note also the presence of the typically Uralic Y-haplogroup N1c in a couple of the younger samples."

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQMlJFLUlUb3hkb2M/view
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02/ancient-r1a1-and-n1c-from-western-russia.html


it's the same one, Smolensk Area = Upper Dvina region
 
The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.

I have the same feeling.
 
and how about
Sintashta-Andronovo-Scythian?
From left Estonia CW, Samara Outlier, the guys who resemble the BA Steppe the most. Next 3 similar population of Steppe. You can see Baloch rising and Med dropping, which tells us that they have more East Yamnaya in them than Estonian CW. If Andronovo migrated from CW they have picked up more East Yamnaya on their way. Last two are Scythian and Yamnayan. Here the Scythian looks like a mix between Andronovo and East Yamnaya, but with a twist. He also has additional Siberian, and higher Caucasian, the latter from Transcaucasian source.
It is possible that Scythian has nothing much to do with East Yamnaya but is from Andronovo population, which with time mixed with 10% more Siberian/NE Asian/American source, and about 10% with Iranian/Caucasian (IE back migration, or from constant contact between Iranian tribes?).
M913021Rise00M630274 I0432, R1a Z93M690970Rise386, Z93M217196 I0430, R1a Z93M608028RISE505M348213i0247M828815Rise552
Estonia CW4 kyaSamara Poltavka outlier2925-2536 BCSintashta4kyaSrubna3.5kyaAndronovoscythianUlan iV, Yamnaya4.5 kya
Run Time8.05Run time7.79Run time3.81Run time8.02Run time13.24Run time11.07Run time9.08
S-Indian- S-Indian- S-Indian- S-Indian- S-Indian0.54S-Indian0.67S-Indian-
Baloch14.27Baloch14.7Baloch18.5Baloch19.86Baloch21.23Baloch24.99Baloch33.24
Caucasian- Caucasian- Caucasian2.01Caucasian2.35Caucasian2.4Caucasian7.68Caucasian6.58
NE-Euro59.09NE-Euro63.14NE-Euro57.8NE-Euro55.13NE-Euro56.39NE-Euro45.27NE-Euro56.02
SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian0.83SE-Asian-
Siberian0.8Siberian- Siberian- Siberian- Siberian1.93Siberian6.39Siberian-
NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian1.31NE-Asian-
Papuan- Papuan- Papuan- Papuan- Papuan- Papuan- Papuan-
American- American- American- American0.91American1.05American2.85American2.46
Beringian- Beringian- Beringian0.56Beringian- Beringian1.22Beringian1.4Beringian0.75
Mediterranean25.26Mediterranean22.15Mediterranean19.92Mediterranean21.67Mediterranean14.37Mediterranean8.62Mediterranean-
SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian-
San- San- San- San- San- San- San-
E-African- E-African- E-African- E-African0.07E-African- E-African- E-African-
Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy0.06Pygmy- Pygmy-
W-African0.5W-African- W-African1.2W-African- W-African0.81W-African-W-African0.95
 
From left Estonia CW, Samara Outlier, the guys who resemble the BA Steppe the most. Next 3 similar population of Steppe. You can see Baloch rising and Med dropping, which tells us that they have more East Yamnaya in them than Estonian CW. If Andronovo migrated from CW they have picked up more East Yamnaya on their way. Last two are Scythian and Yamnayan. Here the Scythian looks like a mix between Andronovo and East Yamnaya, but with a twist. He also has additional Siberian, and higher Caucasian, the latter from Transcaucasian source.
It is possible that Scythian has nothing much to do with East Yamnaya but is from Andronovo population, which with time mixed with 10% more Siberian/NE Asian/American source, and about 10% with Iranian/Caucasian (IE back migration, or from constant contact between Iranian tribes?).
M913021Rise00M630274 I0432, R1a Z93M690970Rise386, Z93M217196I0430, R1a Z93M608028RISE505M348213i0247M828815Rise552
Estonia CW4 kyaSamara Poltavka outlier2925-2536 BCSintashta4kyaSrubna3.5kyaAndronovoscythianUlan iV, Yamnaya4.5 kya
Run Time8.05Run time7.79Run time3.81Run time8.02Run time13.24Run time11.07Run time9.08
S-Indian-S-Indian-S-Indian-S-Indian-S-Indian0.54S-Indian0.67S-Indian-
Baloch14.27Baloch14.7Baloch18.5Baloch19.86Baloch21.23Baloch24.99Baloch33.24
Caucasian-Caucasian-Caucasian2.01Caucasian2.35Caucasian2.4Caucasian7.68Caucasian6.58
NE-Euro59.09NE-Euro63.14NE-Euro57.8NE-Euro55.13NE-Euro56.39NE-Euro45.27NE-Euro56.02
SE-Asian-SE-Asian-SE-Asian-SE-Asian-SE-Asian-SE-Asian0.83SE-Asian-
Siberian0.8Siberian-Siberian-Siberian-Siberian1.93Siberian6.39Siberian-
NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian-NE-Asian1.31NE-Asian-
Papuan-Papuan-Papuan-Papuan-Papuan-Papuan-Papuan-
American-American-American-American0.91American1.05American2.85American2.46
Beringian-Beringian-Beringian0.56Beringian-Beringian1.22Beringian1.4Beringian0.75
Mediterranean25.26Mediterranean22.15Mediterranean19.92Mediterranean21.67Mediterranean14.37Mediterranean8.62Mediterranean-
SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-SW-Asian-
San-San-San-San-San-San-San-
E-African-E-African-E-African-E-African0.07E-African-E-African-E-African-
Pygmy-Pygmy-Pygmy-Pygmy-Pygmy0.06Pygmy-Pygmy-
W-African0.5W-African-W-African1.2W-African-W-African0.81W-African-W-African0.95

There's a possibility that we may not yet have the exact population from which Andronovo derived.
 
I taught both Andronovo and Srubnaya were Sintashta-derived.
But both got some extra Baloch and some less NE-Euro.
When Sintashta appeared Eastern Yamna seems to have disappeared, but sure there must have been remnants of them in some remote areas.

As for Scythian, we don't know where exactly it originated. Maybe in the Altaï Mts.
 
I have the same feeling.

Skin pigmentation is a multi-genetic trait. That's why in criminal forensics you need much more than just two to make a prediction. I've posted links to the tests previously. They have a very high accuracy rate. Population geneticists use those tests for making predictions. I know that Lazaridis does, for example. TYR is pretty important in that regard. Also, OCA2/HERC 2, which codes for blue eyes, also affects skin pigmentation to some degree.

There are a lot of Middle Easterners who have two copies of derived SLC24A5 but only one or no copies of derived SLC42A5, and they're not Tamil brown. Indeed, there are Mediterranean Europeans with two copies of derived SLC24A5 but only one copy of derived SLC42A5, but perhaps because of TYR and some other minor effect genes they have what's usually called an olive complexion. I would be willing to bet that's what Sophia Loren probably has, for instance.


So, we don't know the precise color of the skin of the WHG, but we know they were darker than the first Anatolian farmers, and, in fact, the EEF became darker through admixture with them, especially in Spain, going by the results of the Spanish Neolithic.
 
Last edited:
I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???

That guy was a shaman.
I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

original Borreby sample:
fig05.jpg


I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.
Eneolithic population is a mixed physical type, "formed in the process of long-term contacts" Mongoloids and Caucasians
http://altarcheomuseum.wixsite.com/altai-archeology/eneolithic

Archaeologically before 2,000bc, the yellow zone might be a bridge between pontic steppe and the Altai. So there was copper mining in east Ural around fourth millennium BC, but in sintashta around 2,000bc. I think it could be very difficult to pass the steppe by walking without the transportation. I think Human wisdom made people to use forest steppe of the red zone. I think that is why David Anthony tried to connect botai horse-riding culture to both of Yamna and afanasievo, but it is less persuasive.

U2e-U4-U5region.png


T.A. Chikisheva defines them anthropologically as Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation and Southern Eurasian Anthropological Formation. Studies found anthropological continuity between the people of the Neolithic and Ust-Tartas cultures in the Baraba steppe. Evidence indicates an influx of Bolshemys culture from the Barnaul-Biysk-Ob area or their descendants into the anthropological milieu of Ust-Tartas culture of the Baraba province.
In the Early Bronze Age (3200–2300 BC), the population of the Baraba steppe retained capacity of the indigenous anthropological substrate, having assimilated the migrant Bolshemys Culture. The Ust-Tartas Culture, in turn, was replaced by the anthropological complex of the Odinov culture, and later by Krotov culture, with the anthropological composition of the population containing only autochthonous morphological complex.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture
 
Last edited:
I taught both Andronovo and Srubnaya were Sintashta-derived.
But both got some extra Baloch and some less NE-Euro.
When Sintashta appeared Eastern Yamna seems to have disappeared, but sure there must have been remnants of them in some remote areas.

As for Scythian, we don't know where exactly it originated. Maybe in the Altaï Mts.

Probably not Altai, because at roughly same time people living there had way more Siberian and East Asian admixtures, and less NE Euro. A big change from Afansievo population, who lived there 2ky before. But not yet Mongolien like, who have 40% of NE Asian in them. I'm sure Scythian will be mostly Bronze Age Steppe genetics with extra Siberian and Iranian/Caucasian.

F999969Rise607F999965Rise902
Altai, Russia, Verh-Uimon,2kyaRussia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai2kya
Run time11.91Run time9.23
S-Indian-S-Indian0.92
Baloch18.57Baloch19.12
Caucasian1.12Caucasian7.36
NE-Euro29.87NE-Euro32.39
SE-Asian0.97SE-Asian0.28
Siberian20.18Siberian22.17
NE-Asian11.59NE-Asian6.52
Papuan1.39Papuan-
American4.06American4.3
Beringian5.05Beringian4.25
Mediterranean6.6Mediterranean1.18
SW-Asian-SW-Asian-
San-San-
E-African-E-African-
Pygmy-Pygmy-
W-African0.59W-African1.52

Any idea about haplogroups of these guys? I wonder if R1b was still left in Altai, or Afansievo completely vacated the area? Though there is some Med and Caucasian admixture in these guys, sign of Afansievo guys. These admixtures have no place in Siberia without European Steppe people.
 
The cultural package that archaeologists consider 'Scythian' seems to have arisen in some place in the triangle od Mongolia-Kazakhstan-Harappa. The author of this paper seems to believe that the animal style art was a local adaption of southern Harappan art which the steppe dwellers sought to imitate.

https://www.csen.org/BAR Book/06 Part 4 (0.3)Iron.Int.pdf

I think this would be more or less in accord with the available historical accounts that generally have the Scythians migrating from the east into Europe. Of course, the question is whether everything that looks Scythian actually is Scythian in the sense of being speakers of Iranian. One can really only speculative with these pre-literate cultures. What's more, the populations of the steppes also seemed to have mixed with one another quite freely, which complicates things even further.

The latter is also why I'd think that the demic impact of the original Scythian population would have been pretty small once they'd arrived in the extreme west of Russia.
 
My friend looked at Afanasevo. He says they are almost certainly Z2103.

Bolshemis is P297 xM269
 
Arame...what is Bolshemis?
 
That guy was a shaman.
I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

original Borreby sample:
fig05.jpg


I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.


this Borreby you post is the paradigm which gave its name to the "type"; it's my "B-borreby', with something more akin to the 'brünn-capelle' phylum - an other sub-brahcy types existed in Sth Scandinavia too, very different, more 'croma' with less brutal traits, lower skull but "fuller", more steepy frontal, broader jaw, smaller orbits, I think it has been found in Hvellinge or a name like that, not sure, it's my "B-borreby" (for what it's worth!) -
my post was a bet, I would have liked having the profile picture and look at the antero-posterior position of cheek-bones, not a drawing, not a reconstruction - but, yes, it's true, it could be the type of first N-E European foragers, as a whole closer to paleo-europoids, but with something vaguely 'mongoloid'; not a crossing, rather a less evolved (speaking of bones) pop - but all that is "it could be"... (sometimes I found that some Coreans could have inherited of this type at individual level, and some Amerindians too (not all,concerning features).The later 'mongoloid' input in Sth-Siberia at Bronze/Iron change was more marked and typical, and as a whole very different, skull and body included -
 

This thread has been viewed 26345 times.

Back
Top