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    Afanasievo was R1b1a2

    Peuplement du sud de la sibérie et de I’ Altaï à I’âge du Bronze : apport de la paléogénétique

    That French Thesis presents Y DNA, mtDNA, and hand picked SNP results for many ancient northern Asians.
    Y DNA results pg. 88
    mtDNA results pg. 80
    Pigmentation SNP results pg. 180
    Description of Archaeological Sites pg. 44

    Here are the Y DNA results of the ancient northern Asians...

    Afanasevo Culture, 3600-2600 BC
    R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a(xR1b1a1 M73)

    Bol'shemysskaya Culture. Eneolithic.
    R1b1a2-M269

    Okunevo Culture, 2300-1800 BC
    NO(xO), NO(xO), NO(xO), Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3-M346(xL54), R1b1a2-M269.

    Munkh-Khairkhan Culture, 1700-1400 BC
    NO(xO), NO(xO)

    Sagsai Culture, 1400-900 BC
    Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, C-M130

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    I'll make a post at my blog about ancient North Asian mtDNA soon. The mtDNA results from this thesis are similar to already released results of ancient North Asians from the same time period. The only differnce are orignally Near Eastern lineages which Afanasevo introduced; T2a1b, H6, J.

    T2a1b has been found in Yamnaya and Afanasievo already. H6 has been found in Afanasevo, Yamnaya, Catacomb, and all Steppe admixed cultures in Europe.

    Several Afanasievo indviduals from this thesis and a recently published paper have East Asian mHGs. This is surprising because Afanasievo genomes are identical to Yamnaya, they have no East Asian admixture.

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    ....................................
    Last edited by Rethel; 01-04-17 at 17:35.

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    Sorry I'm not clear - the hypothetic Y-Q I speak of would only be the rare males of the 'siberian' part of the complex group of these sub-brachy robust types if they really came from North-East Europe (to be proved) - all that is very hypothetic, a "loud voice brain storm" of mine.

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    Afanasevo results in pigmentation SNPs. These results are consistent with results from Yamnaya.

    Indvidual ID, rs16891982, rs12913832, mtDNA
    Kh19: CG, A, mHG C
    Kh20: G, AG, mHG C
    Kh21: CG, G, mHG H6
    Kh22: C, A, mHG U4
    Aaf2: G, AG, mHG H?
    Aaf3: C, --, mHG U5a1d2b
    Maf1: CG, A, H?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Afanasevo results in pigmentation SNPs. These results are consistent with results from Yamnaya.

    Indvidual ID, rs16891982, rs12913832, mtDNA
    Kh19: CG, A, mHG C
    Kh20: G, AG, mHG C
    Kh21: CG, G, mHG H6
    Kh22: C, A, mHG U4
    Aaf2: G, AG, mHG H?
    Aaf3: C, --, mHG U5a1d2b
    Maf1: CG, A, H?
    Yes, they are almost exactly like East Yamnayans. Probably a bit more northern or eastern as they mixed less with Transcaucasian immigrants. They had a bit less Baloch and Caucasian and a bit more NE Euro than Yamnaya. Otherwise 90% exactly same genetics. They had 1.5% more Siberian, but otherwise 0% SE Asian, so no East Asiatic/Mongoloid admixtures yet.

    M828784 Rise511 M343758 I0443
    Afanasievo Yamnaya
    Run time 9.70 Run time 9.86
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 28.13 Baloch 30.37
    Caucasian 2.18 Caucasian 6.26
    NE-Euro 63.76 NE-Euro 58.91
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 1.64 Siberian 0.13
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan -
    American 3.56 American 2.00
    Beringian - Beringian 1.31
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean 0.87
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.72 W-African 0.13
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    @Fire-Haired,

    The Altai is not North Asia. Even if it were, these people didn't "originate" there.

    The pigmentation makes sense if Afanasievo is an offshoot of eastern Yamnaya. Not blonde cowboys of the steppe, I'm afraid.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not blonde cowboys of the steppe, I'm afraid.
    Blonde cowboys were Andronovo, Sintashta, Potapovka and Srubnaya, I think.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
    Some reconstruction:

    Afanasevo Culture


    Bol'shemysskaya Culture


    Okunevo Culture


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
    Some reconstruction:

    Afanasevo Culture


    Bol'shemysskaya Culture


    Okunevo Culture

    I don't think okunevo people looks like that. However, okunevo and afanasievo Y seem to explain all things well.
    by the way, what kind of culture is Bol'shemysskaya Culture?

    The Okunev tribes of the Minusinsk Basin, those associated with Karakol, Ust-Tartas, and Krotovo cultures as well those buried in “Andronoid” cemeteries of Western Siberia at Yelovka II and Cherno-ozerye were apparently descendants of the local Neolithic tribes. All these groups display highly peculiar and apparently very ancient trait combinations which could hardly have resulted from an admixture between Mongoloids and Caucasoids. The role of the European component in their origins remains unclear.

    CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009
    by AG Kozintsev


    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-yamna-or-not

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I don't think okunevo people looks like that. However, okunevo and afanasievo Y seem to explain all things well.
    But Russian anthropologists, who found there Mongoloid and Caucasoid skulls, think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009
    by AG Kozintsev
    According to A.V. Gromov, Okunevo is a mixed culture consisting of newcomers Afanasevan and local Neolithic (Mongoloid) population. And the result of Y DNA confirm this.
    Also Caucasoid skulls of Okunevo similar to the Yamnaya of Kalmykia and Astrakhan, and have a similar artificial deformation. (Gromov 2002)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Also Caucasoid skulls of Okunevo similar to the Yamnaya of Kalmykia and Astrakhan, and have a similar artificial deformation. (Gromov 2002)
    I think Okunevo genetics admixture agrees with AG Kozintsev's 2009 reserach.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-yamna-or-not

    By the way, did okunevo and Yamnaya's skulls have a deformation also like afanasievo's?

    One more, I cannot find the information about Bol'shemysskaya Culture.
    can you give me information about that culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    By the way, did okunevo and Yamnaya's skulls have a deformation also like afanasievo's?
    Nothing said about it. Presumably, the deformation was due to the similarity of designs children's cradles.

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    One more, I cannot find the information about Bol'shemysskaya Culture.
    can you give me information about that culture?
    Mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid population, according to the link. Not so much info, only in Russian, try Google-translate:
    http://altarcheomuseum.wixsite.com/a...ogy/eneolithic
    http://new.hist.asu.ru/biblio/borod1/254-261.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think Okunevo genetics admixture agrees with AG Kozintsev's 2009 reserach.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-yamna-or-not
    The Yeniseian cultures gave birth to the cultural superstrate of the steppe that persisted well into historic times (and arguably still exists among extant Siberian & Eastern European populations). People of variegated background and morphology would probably have assimilated into this umbrella. Russian archaeologists sometimes misleadingly refer cultures of this typology as 'Scythic' (as opposed to 'Scythian', which is used to denote Iranian linguistic affiliation), but 'Siberian' would probably more appropriate since due to its origin in Okunevo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
    Some reconstruction:

    Afanasevo Culture


    Bol'shemysskaya Culture


    Okunevo Culture

    I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
    shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???

    the mt-DNA can abuse us: if it has been a first strong input of bunches of east-asian females, but after that only additions of new west-eurasian males, the auDNA, if 50/50 at first, could reverse quickly enough to majority of westeurasian DNA, keeping the deep mark of east-asian DNA because transmitted only by mums to their children: a not too fool hypothesis; this dychotomy between Hg, Y or mt, compared to auDNA, when complicated contacts/absorbtions of pops have occurred, has been discussed here and there before -
    in Slavs it seems the contrary occurred: after crossings and come back West, the new introductions of western females can have erased ancient east-asian (weak enough) mt-DNA,all that giving the impression of "purity" spite some east-asian auDNA is found (weaker yet, of course).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
    shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???
    That guy was a shaman.
    I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

    original Borreby sample:


    I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
    Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

    Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.
    Eneolithic population is a mixed physical type, "formed in the process of long-term contacts" Mongoloids and Caucasians
    http://altarcheomuseum.wixsite.com/altai-archeology/eneolithic

    Archaeologically before 2,000bc, the yellow zone might be a bridge between pontic steppe and the Altai. So there was copper mining in east Ural around fourth millennium BC, but in sintashta around 2,000bc. I think it could be very difficult to pass the steppe by walking without the transportation. I think Human wisdom made people to use forest steppe of the red zone. I think that is why David Anthony tried to connect botai horse-riding culture to both of Yamna and afanasievo, but it is less persuasive.



    T.A. Chikisheva defines them anthropologically as Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation and Southern Eurasian Anthropological Formation. Studies found anthropological continuity between the people of the Neolithic and Ust-Tartas cultures in the Baraba steppe. Evidence indicates an influx of Bolshemys culture from the Barnaul-Biysk-Ob area or their descendants into the anthropological milieu of Ust-Tartas culture of the Baraba province.
    In the Early Bronze Age (3200–2300 BC), the population of the Baraba steppe retained capacity of the indigenous anthropological substrate, having assimilated the migrant Bolshemys Culture. The Ust-Tartas Culture, in turn, was replaced by the anthropological complex of the Odinov culture, and later by Krotov culture, with the anthropological composition of the population containing only autochthonous morphological complex.[
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture
    Last edited by johen; 05-03-17 at 07:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    That guy was a shaman.
    I think he is somewhat different from borreby. The skull drawing of lips and browridge parts gave me an impression of being mixed, but I don’t know.

    original Borreby sample:


    I think Bolshemys R1b-P297 looks like older than Afanasievo’s, b/c radiocarbon gave a date as early as 3,000bc on afanasievo remians.
    Moreover, Boshemys culture seems to belong to Northern Eurasian anthropological formation like Ust-Tartas culture, being related with Okunevo also.

    Even if the russian site explains that they were mixed people of mongoloid and caucasian, I think they would be intermediary between mongoloid and caucasian as mentioned before.

    this Borreby you post is the paradigm which gave its name to the "type"; it's my "B-borreby', with something more akin to the 'brünn-capelle' phylum - an other sub-brahcy types existed in Sth Scandinavia too, very different, more 'croma' with less brutal traits, lower skull but "fuller", more steepy frontal, broader jaw, smaller orbits, I think it has been found in Hvellinge or a name like that, not sure, it's my "B-borreby" (for what it's worth!) -
    my post was a bet, I would have liked having the profile picture and look at the antero-posterior position of cheek-bones, not a drawing, not a reconstruction - but, yes, it's true, it could be the type of first N-E European foragers, as a whole closer to paleo-europoids, but with something vaguely 'mongoloid'; not a crossing, rather a less evolved (speaking of bones) pop - but all that is "it could be"... (sometimes I found that some Coreans could have inherited of this type at individual level, and some Amerindians too (not all,concerning features).The later 'mongoloid' input in Sth-Siberia at Bronze/Iron change was more marked and typical, and as a whole very different, skull and body included -

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    Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
    The reconstructions are Caucasoid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
    The reconstructions are Caucasoid.
    Problem is afanasievo had 2 EDNAR.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Surely you know, a tree is not a wood - 2 among how much tested? that's the question; and we don't know if EDAR was not present long ago among central Eurasians before a specialization very stronger among future 'mongoloids'? Some Scandinavians HGs had EDAR; did they inherited it from crossings with far East-Asians or only from deep ancestry from Central Asia before genic redistributions?
    a (pheno)type is constituted by the concentration in a pop of some statistically dominant traits, dense here, absent or very rare in other pops - this racialization process, never complete among too mobile humans, put some people to believe the presence of a rare supposed "exotic" trait among a pop is the sign of more or less recent crossings between well formed types; it's often the case, but sometimes this traits are ancient enough and inherited before the process of partial "racialization" has begun -
    that said I don't see why a few crossings would not have occurred in the far eastern Steppes at those times, even if the input was weak...

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    The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    The SNPs indicate they were light-medium-dark brown hair. This range is the most common in Europe today. I'm still a little skeptical on the skin fairness SNPs. I'm not suggesting they were paste white looking Prince Harry's, but I have a hard time believing they were Tamil brown colour. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, East Asians in the north at least are light but lack the common European skin lightening SNPs. It might be a little more complicated than we think, but I'm not geneticist so I could definitely be wrong.
    I have the same feeling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
    The reconstructions are Caucasoid.
    There have been a fully Mongoloid skulls and fully Europeoid skulls. Mongoloid skulls prevailed. It's just a reconstruction of Europeoids.

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    My motto has become never trust reconstructions based just on skulls or parts of skulls. A lot of fantasy goes into them unless you have desiccated mummies like Otzi, which give a lot more information, and even then be a little skeptical.

    SHG also had EDAR.

    I wasn't discussing anything but Afanasievo, so all the Eurogenes fan boys can relax.

    Still, I think it's pretty clear that "Fairness" did not come from Yamnaya itself, unless the western more admixed populations of the total Yamnaya horizon carried it.

    On Jean's page, I don't see any results for pigmentation for Srubnaya. Andronovo has a brown hair and brown eyes, although a lot of light eyes as well. I don't see any results from Sintashta. Maybe more modern papers didn't test for it? I don't know.
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/cop...zeagedna.shtml

    Maybe Fire-Haired has some other results.

    Whatever, this is the least important part of this study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    SHG also had EDAR.
    Pretty much everyone in this study had EDAR except Afanasuvo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    On Jean's page, I don't see any results for pigmentation for Srubnaya. Andronovo has a brown hair and brown eyes, although a lot of light eyes as well. I don't see any results from Sintashta. Maybe more modern papers didn't test for it? I don't know.
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/cop...zeagedna.shtml

    Maybe Fire-Haired has some other results.
    Srubnaya and Sintashta results are the same as Andronovo so far.

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