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Thread: J2 in Italy

  1. #26
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    If you want, please open a new thread named "Do Malisor clans originate in Bosnian Hercegovina" or similar and write there all this you written here, also you are free to quote me there if you think something i said is not correct, and we can debate it there. It is very easy to prove that they dont originate in Bosnia, and much of this that you written above does not make sense at all, but i dont want to continue this conversation in thread that is dedicated to J2 Italians. It makes no sense to argue about it here.
    I appreciate your courtesy, Dema.

    In fact, any further off-topic posts will be removed.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #27
    Dominique_NUit
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    I have known for a couple years now that I am G2a-CTS342, but learned yesterday that the other half of my Italian ancestry is J2a-M92. From reading this thread, M92 appears to have a fairly high incidence among J2 lineages in Southern Italy.

    Can anybody here summarize what is known about the phylogeography and historical spread of J2a-M92? Did it likely arrive in Italy during Neolithic times or with Magna Graecia colonization? Or is it simply too soon to say?

    I read through this recent article published in Nature, but found the comments about M92 rather cryptic = https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9

  3. #28
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    I have known for a couple years now that I am G2a-CTS342, but learned yesterday that the other half of my Italian ancestry is J2a-M92. From reading this thread, M92 appears to have a fairly high incidence among J2 lineages in Southern Italy.

    Can anybody here summarize what is known about the phylogeography and historical spread of J2a-M92? Did it likely arrive in Italy during Neolithic times or with Magna Graecia colonization? Or is it simply too soon to say?

    I read through this recent article published in Nature, but found the comments about M92 rather cryptic = https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9
    Dominique,

    Given the recent release of some hints about ancient Italian dna indicating a presence of Iranian/CHG "type" ancestry in the Italian Neolithic, the Greek migrations etc., I'm personally taking a wait and see attitude about how the various strands of J2 might have reached Italy.

    It won't be long now until we get the papers, which should be very interesting.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Juan.delajara's Avatar
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    While we wait for the papers regarding italian Ancient DNA, where J2 is probably involved. I suggest to read an interesting analysis made by professor Musti, regarding Magna Graecia and italic people


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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan.delajara View Post
    Interesting analysis made by professor Musti, regarding Magna Graecia and italic people


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    Could you please summarize Musti's arguments

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    Could you please summarize Musti's arguments
    My pleasure. Musti was an italian historian specialized on Magna Graecia. This book analyses the view of ancient greek, regarding the relationship between them and italics, and their colonies in southern Italy and Sicily. It’s quite interesting because Musti, summerizes , followig the geographic work of Strabo, all the Greek authors statements regarding italic people and western Greeks, from ancient times until the beginning of the roman Empire. Gathering all the information they had on that time.
    As soon as we will see the new papers regarding ancient italian genetics, we will realize how much of the Greek tradition suits with the scientific information we have today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for posting this, Azzuro. I did a similar research, but without going into the deep clades and rarer clades. This is how I hypothesised that J2b-L283 and J2a-L70 were of Indo-European (Italic) origin in Italy.
    Impossible

    J2a and j2b l283 are opposites. Areas with strong j2b l283 have little to no j2a (check out north Albania & Kosova)

    J2b L283 doesn't have much to do with Italy, though it was likely taken there/maybe voluntary too by the Romans and used in their armies
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 07-09-20 at 23:00.

  8. #33
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Impossible
    J2a and j2b l283 are opposites. Areas with strong j2b l283 have little to no j2a (check out north Albania & Kosova)
    J2b L283 doesn't have much to do with Italy, though it was likely taken there/maybe voluntary too by the Romans and used in their armies
    The Romans definitely utilized L283s in their military, but L283 was in Italy long before the Romans. Reference the L283 CTS6190 Etruscan sample (700 BC) and the L283 Z622 (YP61 and YP91) from Nuragic civilization in Sardinia (1200 BC). They definitely had an ancient presence in Italy and likely expanded there via Bell Beakers, Etruscans, Rhaetians, and Illyrians.

  9. #34
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    We need more data to give any conclusion, not one sample reveals. Because from 1 sample reveals we can make any assumptions. We need an archeological site where atleast ~30% of samples are J2b2, so we can associate with any culture, be it Indo-European coming from Black Sea or Anatolian-like.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The Romans definitely utilized L283s in their military, but L283 was in Italy long before the Romans. Reference the L283 CTS6190 Etruscan sample (700 BC) and the L283 Z622 (YP61 and YP91) from Nuragic civilization in Sardinia (1200 BC). They definitely had an ancient presence in Italy and likely expanded there via Bell Beakers, Etruscans, Rhaetians, and Illyrians.
    There are a few theories for why it was found in 700BC Rome, the ancient Greeks inhabited south Italy at this point and were "rivals" to the Etruscans who were further north (Rome), though I don't think Greeks ever took Rome from them. It is however possible a few illyrians and thracians not being as wealthy joined the Greeks if it was possible and became "Greeks", maybe fought in their armies and expanded with them. Which other haplogroups have been found in Rome around 1000-500 BC?

    There is also people who inhabited east Italy at this period who may have had contact with Rome:

    "Today’s Puglia was home to various groups known collectively as Iapigi. Prominent were the Messapians, originally from Illyria, across the Adriatic. They controlled a strategic part of the southern Adriatic, a fact evident to the Greeks who tried to settle there at mid-millennium. The Greeks who founded Taranto wrote of intense conflict with the Messapians. In spite of wars between them, trade also flourished and late Messapian pottery is often adorned with figures from Greek mythology.

    The Umbrians, too, have given their name to a region of modern Italy. They traded with the Etruscans and were highly regarded as warriors. They fought and lost alongside of the Etruscans against the Greeks at the famous battle of Cuma in the 6th century BC, a defeat that marked the end of Etruscan power in Italy."

    Also, wasn't L283 found in Croatia about 1000 years before this sample? Doesn't this rule out L283 not being related to Etruscans already? Or did they migrate through Croatia into Italy and hundreds years later, crossed the adriatic after being pushed out by Romans to settle alongside Illyrians or Thracians? This is difficult to imagine

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