Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 31

Thread: J2 in Italy

  1. #1
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    J2 in Italy

    Based off research I have been doing through looking at Ftdna and Yfull, I decided to look at J2 and its presence in Italy, I am not going to postulate origins for how or when it certain J2's arrived in Italy, merely just look at it through the data presented. The sample size is quite small around 241 individuals, however many well defined clades are going to be mentioned.

    J2a: 206 (85%)
    J2b: 35 (15%)

    As clearly visible J2a is much more common than J2b.

    Further Breakdown of J2b

    J2b-M205: 3 (9%)
    J2b-L283: 32 (91%)

    The three J-M205 are all found in Sicily

    For J-L283 essentially most seem to be under Z638, it is one of the most widespread J2's in Italy, with a third being found in Sicily, mainly found in the North and East Coasts (Northern Trapani, Palermo, Messina, Catania, and Siracusa) , and is not found in the South Coast (Agrigento, Ragusa, Southern Caltanissetta and Southern Trapani) for now. In Calabria for far it's found only in Reggio, in Campania only Naples and there seems to have a little hotspot in Abruzzo around Chieti and L'Aquila. It is seems to be absent in Basilicata, Puglia, Calabria (aside Reggio), Campania (except Naples), and Molise. It appears again throughout Central Italy except for the Emilia-Romagna region, seems to increase again in the North, every province so far except Liguria and Aosta.

    Further Breakdown of J2a

    J2a-PF5119 (non L558): 10 (5%)
    J2a-L558: 92 (44%)
    J2a-L25: 64 (31%)
    J2a-PF5172: 12 (6%)
    J2a-Z6046: 10 (5%)
    J2a-PF5008: 18 (9%)

    Further Breakdown of J-PF5119 (Non L558)

    J2a-FGC15901: 8 (80%)
    J2a-M47: 2 (20%)

    J-FGC15901, seems to be entirely in Southern Italy so far (Sicilia, Calabria, Molise, and Abruzzo) so far not found in Basilicata, Campania and Puglia.

    J-M47, both samples were from Salerno.

    Further Breakdown of J-PF5172

    J2a-FGC16096: 6 (50%)
    J2a-PF5174: 4 (34%)
    J2a-PF7421: 1 (8%)
    J2a-PH1222: 1 (8%)

    J-PF7421 was found in Basilicata (Potenza) and J-PH1222 was found in Sicilia (Agrigento).

    J-PF5174, was in the province of Campania (Salerno).

    J-FGC16096, was found only in the South, with 3 in Campania (Benevento, Napoli and Salerno),with 2 in Sicilia (Palermo), and 1 in Puglia (Bari).

    The J2a-PF5172 is a Southern Italian marker so far as it does not appear in the Central-North so far.

    Further Breakdown of J-Z6046

    J2a-PH4959:1 (10%)
    J2a-SK1363: 3 (30%)
    J2a-Z6048: 6 (60%)

    J-PH4959, was found in Molise (Isernia).

    J-SK1363, was found in Puglia (Foggia), Lombardia (Brescia), and Campania (Napoli).

    J-Z6048, being another Southern Italian J2a that so far has not been found in the Central-North. With 3 in Campania (Napoli), 2 in Puglia (Foggia) and 1 in Sicilia (Agrigento).

    As for J-PF5008, all appear to be under the J-PF7384, it is overwhelmingly found in Sicilia, with roughly 60% of the J2a-PF7384 samples, it is found in every province. Also found in all the Southern Italy and so far the most north being found in Rome.

    For the breakdowns of J-L25 and J-L558, I will post later as there is a lot of information to cover.

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,301
    Points
    278,809
    Level
    100
    Points: 278,809, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You're aware, yes, that FTDNA and YFull are not randomly selected samples?

    The vast majority of Italian samples are from New World diaspora Italians, predominantly Italian-American. So, you can't say anything very definitively about J2 or any other haplogroup in Italy based on these results. You're only going to get results from areas which sent large numbers of immigrants to the U.S. and even then only from people from the lower classes. Sometimes, for example, recruiters would go to specific towns, and large numbers would immigrate from that one village or town. I have a church near me which was founded to minister to a group of Italian Americans, and it turns out they all, all, came from the same village in Campania. Or, if a couple of men from a certain village went to the U.S., they'd get settled, and then send for wife, children, but after that brothers, cousins, friends. It's like that with all immigrants from all countries. So, you could get a lot of over-representation of certain yDna. After that, you're going to get some self selection because not everyone is interested.

    Academic papers also have to be looked at skeptically, even if the samples are randomly selected. There's a lot of chatter about how much J2 there is in areas like the Marche, but that's largely if not totally based on the Boattini group papers which have extremely small sample group sizes. In cases like that, much larger sample sizes often significantly change the picture.

    It's not that the results of your hard work aren't interesting, but I wouldn't draw any vast generalizations from it.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #3
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    For J2a-L25

    Further Breakdown

    J-PF7431: 6 (9%)
    J-L25 (needs further testing): 8 (13%)
    J-FGC35503: 8 (13%)
    J-L70: 36 (56%)
    J-FGC9961: 5 (8%)
    J-L192: 1 (1%)

    J2a-PF7431, is found in 6 samples all appear to be in the South with Basilicata (Matera) and Campania (Napoli) having slightly more, all of them are or more or less under J2a-L243.

    J2a-FGC35508, is found mostly in the South, but not exclusively, 3 in Abruzzo (L'Aquila), 2 in Puglia (Foggia), 1 in Campania (Avellino), 1 in Sicilia (Agrigento), and 1 in Lombardia (Como).

    J2a-L192, was found in Campania (Napoli).

    J2a-FGC9961, looks to be more Central-North Italian, with 4 and 1 in the South. 2 in Veneto (Treviso), Marche (Fermo), Piemonte (Novara) and Calabria (Catanzaro).

    J2a-L70, it is the most widespread J2 in Italy, found in every Region, the only 3 regions which it was not found so far are Aosta, Basilicata and Puglia, odds are they will find them as more people test. There is no definite pattern when it comes to L70 and its branches in Italy. As it appears to be everywhere.

    Further Breakdown of J2a-L558

    J-Y8378: 2 (2%)
    J-M319: 14 (15%)
    J-M67: 76 (83%)

    J2a-Y8378, was found in Sicilia (Agrigento) and Veneto (Verona).

    J2a-M319, is found more in the South with 10 to 4 split, in the South 6 were in Sicilia (2 in Messina,2 in Caltanissetta, Agrigento and Palermo), 2 were in Campania (Salerno and Napoli), 1 in Abruzzo (Chieti), and 1 in Puglia (Foggia). The other 4 were in Central Italy, 1 in Marche (Ancona), 1 in Toscana (Arezzo), 1 in Umbria (Perugia) and 1 in Emilia-Romagna (Bologna).

    Further Breakdown of J2a-M67

    J-M67 needs further testing: 6
    J-Z467: 31
    J-M92: 31
    J-CTS900: 4
    J-Y6240: 4

    J2a-Y6240, it has a more Central-North distribution, with 1 in Veneto (Venezia), 1 in Liguria (Genova), 1 in Marche (Ascoli Piceno) and 1 in Sicilia (Agrigento).

    J2a-CTS900, all are from the South, 1 in Basilicata (Potenza), 1 in Calabria (Reggio), 1 in Campania (Napoli) and 1 in Sicilia (Agrigento).

    Further Breakdown of J2a-Z467

    J-S25258: 17 (55%)
    J-L210: 14 (45%)

    Further Breakdown of J2a-S25258

    J-S21160: 4 (25%)
    J-SK1336: 12 (75%)

    J2a-S21160, is split in half with 2 in the North and 2 in the South. For the North 1 in Trentino (Trentino) and 1 in Liguria (Genova), for the South 1 in Basilicata (Potenza) and 1 in Campania (Napoli).

    J2a-SK1336, it is predominately found in Southern Italy, with the Lazio (Frosinone) being the most North. More frequent in Basilicata, Campania and Sicilia, with 5 in Sicily (3 in Palermo, Catania and Messina), essentially Northern Coast and Eastern Coast of Sicily. 2 in Basilicata (Potenza and Matera), 2 in Campania (Napoli and Salerno), 1 in Puglia (Taranto), and 1 in Calabria (Cosenza).

    For J2a-L210, there is 5 under Z482/Y15222 (My subclade), 1 in Basilicata (Matera, my paternal ancestor), 1 in Puglia (Bari, an entire family all under the same clade), 1 in Lombardia (Varese, BigY match and I am in contact with) and 2 from Sicilia (Caltanissetta and Palermo). There is another 4 who appear to under the Z482>Y15222 (they need to test the specific snps to confirm), 3 are from Sicilia (Agrigento, Caltanissetta, and Trapani). The other 5 appear to part of another line of J2a-L210 that came from a different source, 2 are from Campania (Napoli), 1 from Marche (Fermo), and the last two are from Sicilia (Messina and Ragusa). Essentially there is two different sources for J-L210 in Italy, the J2a-L210 (negative for Z489>Z482) and the Z482/Y15222 being the more common of the two.

    Further Breakdown of J2a-M92

    J-M92 needs further testing: 25 (81%)
    J-CTS2906: 5 (16%)
    J-Z515:1 (3%)

    J2a-Z515, was found in Campania.

    J2a-CTS2906, was found in Central and Southern Italy, 2 in Emilia-Romagna (Forli), 2 in Campania (Caserta and Napoli), and 1 in Sicilia (Catania).

    J2a-M92, as it is the older clade or the upstream, unfortunately not to many people did further testing, as Z515 will probably be the most common subclade based on its findings in TSI samples and Sardegna paper. Regardless for the 25, the highest frequency of J-M92 is by far Campania with 11 (6 in Napoli, 2 in Salerno, 2 in Avellino, and 1 in Caserta), 5 were found in Sicilia (3 in Messina, Palermo, and Agrigento), 4 in Puglia (Bari, Brindisi, Lecce and Taranto), 3 in Calabria (Reggio, Catanzaro, and Cosenza), and the other 2 were found in Emilia-Romagna and Lombardia (Milano). On the surface J2a-M92 appears to be much more frequent in the South, but does appear to be in the Central-North as well, being the results of different sources for specific subclades.

  4. #4
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're aware, yes, that FTDNA and YFull are not randomly selected samples?

    The vast majority of Italian samples are from New World diaspora Italians, predominantly Italian-American. So, you can't say anything very definitively about J2 or any other haplogroup in Italy based on these results. You're only going to get results from areas which sent large numbers of immigrants to the U.S. and even then only from people from the lower classes. Sometimes, for example, recruiters would go to specific towns, and large numbers would immigrate from that one village or town. I have a church near me which was founded to minister to a group of Italian Americans, and it turns out they all, all, came from the same village in Campania. Or, if a couple of men from a certain village went to the U.S., they'd get settled, and then send for wife, children, but after that brothers, cousins, friends. It's like that with all immigrants from all countries. So, you could get a lot of over-representation of certain yDna. After that, you're going to get some self selection because not everyone is interested.

    Academic papers also have to be looked at skeptically, even if the samples are randomly selected. There's a lot of chatter about how much J2 there is in areas like the Marche, but that's largely if not totally based on the Boattini group papers which have extremely small sample group sizes. In cases like that, much larger sample sizes often significantly change the picture.


    It's not that the results of your hard work aren't interesting, but I wouldn't draw any vast generalizations from it.
    Yes I am aware.

    In terms of what you said about the methods of immigration, that is literally how my family came in. I see what you mean with the over representation.

    The main point of my work, or the research I did was to look at observations, as noticeable almost every variant of J2 exists in Italy. If let's say the studies agree with what the research I done, then we can start to see that is a more fuller picture, not complete. But at least in this research you have Italians from almost every region, and Sardinians/TSI to look at Yfull subclades.

  5. #5
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,694
    Points
    696,707
    Level
    100
    Points: 696,707, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for posting this, Azzuro. I did a similar research, but without going into the deep clades and rarer clades. This is how I hypothesised that J2b-L283 and J2a-L70 were of Indo-European (Italic) origin in Italy.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-10-16
    Posts
    18
    Points
    2,109
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,109, Level: 12
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 41
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Curious about FCG 35503 - I am under that subclade - (my paternal line was apparently from more north in the Rhineland area of what is now Germany).

  7. #7
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for posting this, Azzuro. I did a similar research, but without going into the deep clades and rarer clades. This is how I hypothesised that J2b-L283 and J2a-L70 were of Indo-European (Italic) origin in Italy.
    My pleasure, it really does seem like it, the evidence seems strong, also I would like to add that probably J2b-L283 and E-V13 came together to the Balkans, they must have been in the same area, if you look at the expansion for both of them J2b-L283 under J2b-Z600 and E-V13, both expand around 5400 ybp.

  8. #8
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Edward_J View Post
    Curious about FCG 35503 - I am under that subclade - (my paternal line was apparently from more north in the Rhineland area of what is now Germany).
    Edward, as per Yfull, there seems to be split between the lineage that Europeans carry of FGC35503 and Middle Easterners at around 4000 ybp (2000 BC), there can be a couple of explanations, either the European variant found its way to Europe as Merchant around this time or possibly being the descendent of a Middle Eastern Auxiliary of the Roman military corps, who settled in a border town in the Rhine, such as Cologne, and from there found his way more North. You should check J-M172 project at ftdna to see all the people under FGC35503.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-10-16
    Posts
    18
    Points
    2,109
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,109, Level: 12
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 41
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    I went through the L24 Project on FTDNA and looked at the grouping that is likely positive for FGC 35503. See below:

    Armenia – 4 (5%)
    UK/Ireland – 11 (14%)
    France/Germany/Swiss – 19 (25%)
    Greece – 1 (1.2%)
    Iran – 2 (2.6%)
    Italy – 6 (7.8 %)
    Jordan – 1 (1.2%)
    Kuwait – 1 (1.2%)
    Lebanon – 3 (4%)
    Poland – 1 (1.2%)
    Qatar – 1 (1.2%)
    Russian Fed – 5 (6.5%)
    Saudi Arabia – 6 (7.8%)
    Spain – 1 (1.2%)
    Turkey – 2 (2.6)
    Ukraine – 1 (1.2%)
    Colonial United States – 12 (16%)

    Caucasus: 12%
    Europe/US: 67%
    Middle East: 21%

    According to Yfull Z387 split to FGC 35503 and L70 around 6900 YBP. I wonder where that split occurred?

  10. #10
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Edward_J View Post
    I went through the L24 Project on FTDNA and looked at the grouping that is likely positive for FGC 35503. See below:

    Armenia – 4 (5%)
    UK/Ireland – 11 (14%)
    France/Germany/Swiss – 19 (25%)
    Greece – 1 (1.2%)
    Iran – 2 (2.6%)
    Italy – 6 (7.8 %)
    Jordan – 1 (1.2%)
    Kuwait – 1 (1.2%)
    Lebanon – 3 (4%)
    Poland – 1 (1.2%)
    Qatar – 1 (1.2%)
    Russian Fed – 5 (6.5%)
    Saudi Arabia – 6 (7.8%)
    Spain – 1 (1.2%)
    Turkey – 2 (2.6)
    Ukraine – 1 (1.2%)
    Colonial United States – 12 (16%)

    Caucasus: 12%
    Europe/US: 67%
    Middle East: 21%

    According to Yfull Z387 split to FGC 35503 and L70 around 6900 YBP. I wonder where that split occurred?

    The split most likely occurred somewhere in Armenia/Caucasus/Anatolia in my opinion, for there to be a Middle Eastern and a European distribution of a line, it had to be somewhere central to the two.

  11. #11
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I looked at the str results of the Brisighelli Paper from 2012, I found 61 J2's in the paper, and by looking at Nevgen these were the subclades I got, just side note 15 str markers is not enough to fully know exactly which particular subclade these samples are, and the sample size is small, it is good however for Belvedere Marittimo as it is a village of less than 10 000 people and for the Griko speaking Community of Lecce, in the Grecia Salentina area, it comprises of 11 towns.

    Here are the results:

    Liguria (La Spezia province):
    1. J2b-L283: 1 sample
    2. J2a-L70: 1 sample
    3. J2a-L210:1 sample

    Udine:
    1. J2a-Z6065: 1 sample
    2. J2b-L283: 4 samples

    Marche (Piceni area, Picenum in Roman Times):
    1. J2a-Z7700: 8 samples
    2. J2b-L283: 2 samples
    3. J2a-Z6065: 1 sample
    4. J2a-M92: 1 sample
    5. J2a: L210: 1 sample
    6. J2a-PF7431: 1 sample

    Belvedere Marittimo (Cosenza):
    1. J2a-S25258: 1 sample
    2. J2a-Z7700: 3 samples
    3. J2a-M92: 1 sample
    4. J2a-M319: 1 sample
    5. J2a-L70: 1 sample
    6. J2b-L283:1 sample

    Benevento:
    1. J2a-L70: 1 sample
    2. J2b-L283: 2 samples
    3. J2a-M92: 1 sample
    4. J2a-Z7700: 1 sample
    5. J2a-S25258: 1 sample

    Catania:
    1. J2a-M92: 1 sample
    2. J2a-L70: 2 samples
    3. J2b-L283: 2 samples
    4. J2a-Z7700: 1 sample

    Trapani:
    1. J2a-M319: 1 sample
    2. J2b-L283: 1 sample
    3. J2a-Z7671: 1 sample
    4. J2a-L70: 1 sample
    5. J2a-Z6065: 1 sample
    6. J2a-M92: 1 sample
    7. J2a-L210: 1 sample

    Lecce (Grecia Salentina, Griko speakers):
    1. J2b-L283: 2 samples
    2. J2a-L210: 1 sample
    3. J2a-L70: 2 samples
    4. J2a-M319: 3 samples
    5. J2a-PF5191: 1 sample
    6. J2a-Z6065: 1 sample
    7. J2a-PF5008: 1 sample
    8. J2a-M92: 1 sample

  12. #12
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    06-02-18
    Posts
    3


    Country: United States



    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're aware, yes, that FTDNA and YFull are not randomly selected samples?

    The vast majority of Italian samples are from New World diaspora Italians, predominantly Italian-American. So, you can't say anything very definitively about J2 or any other haplogroup in Italy based on these results. You're only going to get results from areas which sent large numbers of immigrants to the U.S. and even then only from people from the lower classes. Sometimes, for example, recruiters would go to specific towns, and large numbers would immigrate from that one village or town. I have a church near me which was founded to minister to a group of Italian Americans, and it turns out they all, all, came from the same village in Campania. Or, if a couple of men from a certain village went to the U.S., they'd get settled, and then send for wife, children, but after that brothers, cousins, friends. It's like that with all immigrants from all countries. So, you could get a lot of over-representation of certain yDna. After that, you're going to get some self selection because not everyone is interested.

    Academic papers also have to be looked at skeptically, even if the samples are randomly selected. There's a lot of chatter about how much J2 there is in areas like the Marche, but that's largely if not totally based on the Boattini group papers which have extremely small sample group sizes. In cases like that, much larger sample sizes often significantly change the picture.

    It's not that the results of your hard work aren't interesting, but I wouldn't draw any vast generalizations from it.
    I must say, parts of this statement feel like classist drivel. Some of the most refined subclades in j2 bring us into early modern history and in several cases we have supporting genealogies that provide further insight into these recent origins and breaks. So in those cases, the families diaspora later into history, and certainly their class, are surely irrelevant.

    "even then only from lower classes"
    maybe majority of were, but to say "only from", again brings your seriousness into question.
    I won't take offense to it - but my ancestors who came over to the united states, with passports, were certainly of an elevated class (male ancestor, state official, died young, younger branch of a smaller noble family, three generations later they find themselves in the United States ... it happened)

  13. #13
    Moderator Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    2,801
    Points
    88,470
    Level
    92
    Points: 88,470, Level: 92
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 880
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by victorIII View Post
    I must say, parts of this statement feel like classist drivel. Some of the most refined subclades in j2 bring us into early modern history and in several cases we have supporting genealogies that provide further insight into these recent origins and breaks. So in those cases, the families diaspora later into history, and certainly their class, are surely irrelevant.

    "even then only from lower classes"
    maybe majority of were, but to say "only from", again brings your seriousness into question.
    I won't take offense to it - but my ancestors who came over to the united states, with passports, were certainly of an elevated class (male ancestor, state official, died young, younger branch of a smaller noble family, three generations later they find themselves in the United States ... it happened)
    You think some infinitesimal fraction of a percent is going to make any difference in regards to the point being made? The vast overwhelming majority of immigrants that came to the U.S. from Italy were from lower classes. Much like immigrants from other countries as well. Moreover, recruiters would draw specifically from the lower classes from specific towns, so "Only from" would be the right words to use in the context of what is being discussed. Your emotional invective does not change reality. Speaking of which, you better watch that when speaking to members of this forum; especially members of the team.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 07-02-18 at 09:29.

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    06-02-18
    Posts
    3


    Country: United States



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    For one - I was merely presenting the facts as the “advisor” made an absolute statement that simply isn’t true. Further - studies have suggested that at least 15% of Italians coming to the United States were not from families of “volgari” or “contadini” (although more than 70% were), so again please be careful with aggressive generalizations that really have nothing to do with case by case analysis of y-dna (now, a proper atDNA analysis, on the other hand, *must* account for class).

    (to your point that Angela was referring to the cases of lower classes being brought together - she says, “You're only going to get results from areas which sent large numbers of immigrants to the U.S. and even then only from people from the lower classes. Sometimes ...”

    so the qualification of “sometimes” comes after the absolute statement that “only people from the lower classes” were sent, which again, may be largely true, but isn’t entirely true. I don’t think Angela was attempting any driven conversation on class so I do apologize for calling it classist drivel, but please be sure that the above statement is simply not true for the reasons I’ve already provided).

    Further - class from the years 1500 onward becomes irrelevant in a data analysis of y-dna from years well before that, and in the cases that we can match a genealogy (immigrant family or not) to around the time of a TMRCA, we are provided with wonderful insight into the geographical origin of that given subclade.

    Again, above all, it goes without being said in any serious discussion about DNA that both sample size and nature of the sample must be considered.

    There is no emotional response here - I study Italian history and genetics and am presenting my perspective as a new member of the forum - being fully mindful of forum rules.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by victorIII; 07-02-18 at 14:28.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-17
    Posts
    2,673
    Points
    27,572
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,572, Level: 51
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 1,078
    Overall activity: 81.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    J2 in Italy

    This discussion about classes of Italian immigrants to the US, remind me of Sacco e Vanzetti.
    That “touch a nerve” of all Italians.
    Sacco is Pugliese, and Vanzetti is Piemontese.
    About 50% of Italians went back to Italy in the 1920s, partially because of this Story, and mistreatment.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacco_and_Vanzetti


    https://youtu.be/N0sYAU96FY0
    Attachment 9719
    Last edited by Salento; 07-02-18 at 16:26.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

  16. #16
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    06-02-18
    Posts
    3


    Country: United States



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I also must say that I respect and appreciate the work done here. No hard feelings and I hope to become a contributing addition to the forum. Best to all

  17. #17
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Just to bring an update to this thread, more samples from Ftdna, to keep things simple as easier to interpret I’ll list the numbers of the 15 more common paraclades

    1. J2a-L70: 61
    2. J2a-M92: 56
    3. J2b-L283: 37
    4. J2a2-PF5008: 28
    5. J2a-S25258: 21 (14 SK1336 and 7 Z6271)
    6. J2a-Z7700: 20 (Almost exclusively under FGC9961)
    7. J2a-M319: 18
    8. J2a-L210: 17
    9. J2a-PF5169: 14
    10. J2a-YP879: 13
    11. J2a-Z6048: 11
    12. J2a-Z7671: 11
    13. J2a-FGC35503: 10
    14. J2a-Z6057: 8
    15. J2a-PF5172: 7

    Little observations, there is a definte bias towards Southern Italians in the database, however there are still quite a few from Central-North. J2a-L70 and J2b-L283 are seen in all regions of Italy. Interestingly J2a-Z7700 branches are more common in Central and Northern Italians.

    Since were lacking sufficient adna from Italy, it is hard to accurately speculate which subclades came in during what time, what we have at the moment from the afford mentioned subclades are the following J2a-Z6048 has been found in Neolithic Turkey (Barcin), Neolithic Austria and Neolithic Hungary. J2a-Z6057 has also been found in Neolithic Hungary plus Neolithic Croatia, and the Mycenaean J2a individual has three positive reads for Z6057 making him very to belong to this branch. J2a2-PF5008 has been found in Chalcolithic Iran, 1 Tian Shan Saka and amongst ancient Turkish samples (all belong to a very specific branch https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1795/). J2a-M319 has been found in the Minoan Samples, J2a-Z6271 has been found in Bronze Age Anatolia, J2a-Z7671>Y17946 is the subclade of BR2. J2a-FGC9961 branches have been found in Tian Shan Saka as well and was one their major Haplogroups. Then there is J2b-L283 which so far we have a sample from Bronze Age Dalmatia and Bronze Age Armenia and both were autosomally very similar (carrying over 30% Steppe and I as mtdna).

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Juan.delajara's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    17
    Points
    1,899
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,899, Level: 12
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 251
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-S10971

    Ethnic group
    Southern European-mediterranean
    Country: Chile



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for the update Azzurro. Do you have any knowledge if the clades of JL70 are mainly PF5456 and Z2177

  19. #19
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,826
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,826, Level: 15
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 224
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Juan.delajara View Post
    Thanks for the update Azzurro. Do you have any knowledge if the clades of JL70 are mainly PF5456 and Z2177
    My pleasure, at the moment many are just at L70 level, I would have to manual check the str’s to see if Z2177 or PF5456 is more prevalent, at the moment there’s 7 PF5456 and 7 Z2177 as per snp confirmed but in terms of placement there is 11 in Z2177 and 15 in PF5456. I think they are fairly even, Z2177 is more common in South and PF5456 is more common in Center-North but both have been found throughout Italy. Where as PF5456 is more evenly distributed throughout Europe, Z2177 highest frequency is amongst Italians, Z2177 frequency in Italy is almost double than any other country.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    366
    Points
    3,252
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,252, Level: 16
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 198
    Overall activity: 24.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Hello there, i have my eye on this thread for a time being, but being occupied with some other things, i yet didn't have time to properly address the issue. Regarding one of very rare clades of J2-M172*, speaking of J2-M172>M102>M205* (J2b1).
    But hopefully ill go thru many more researches these days and i will have much more data about Italians into my hands.

    With my first completed research of searching for J2-M205 among Italians (A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci) i found it in following examples:


    ID vr237 - Northeastern Italy, Italy [Italian] J2b-M205*

    ID RA 222 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] J2b-M205*

    ID RA 38 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] J2b-M205*

    ID RA 392 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] J2b-M205*

    ID sn12 Sicily, Italy [Italian] J2b-M205*


    So as it can be seen, by this research we find it mostly in north, but also in northeast all the way down to south. (And we know it has presence on Sardinia also).
    It looks like my research of J2-M205 among Italians will finish the same way as one within Albanians. And that is from rumors and propaganda that there is none, i will end up finding multiple samples, from multiple regions from north to south, with multiple branches with high TMRCA.


    Branch found in Croatia and Serbia Y22059, is actually native Montenegrin, most likely spread with Canaanites like Phoenicians.

    As it shares same major SNPs, with Palestinian, Sardinian, Greek, Spanish, French, and possibly also Italian samples: J2-M205>CTS1969*
    Also one of samples from Sicily shares SNPs CTS1969 and PH4306/Y22075 with Balkan samples, putting their TMRCA right into proto Cannanite and Phoenician era.


    Also what happened to Italian from Venice that reported in M205 thread ? This moderator scared him away with some stupidity he wrote here - https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post534935

    Serbs he mentions there are native Montenegrins. And they share major SNPs with Palestinian, Sardinian, Spanish samples, (also most likely Italian and Greek)


    So to understand better this is just few examples pulled out:

    "Balkan branch 1" J2-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22059*
    "Sicilian branch 1" J2-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>PH1089*
    "Sardinia branch 1" J2-M205>CTS1969>YP13*
    "French branch 1" J2b1>CTS1969>PH4306>BY40879*

    Also note that there is multiple Balkan branches, we identified only 4 different among Albanians so far.

    Y22059* is native Montenegrin, connected with latinophone early 12 centrury tribe. Only recently with slavicization of their territories and Orthodox religion, declares as Serbs.

    Truth is they are slavicized Montenegrins just like 20 % of Montenegrin E-v13 (where some clades have TMRCA 1000 - 1500 years with Albanians), and some clades completely slavicized as E-v13>PH1204* (also Montenegrin native).
    In areas where we find J2-M205 among Balkan Slavs, we also find particularly high percentages of E-v13 haplogroup.

    J2-M205* has TMRCA 5500 years currently by Yfull, meaning that ancestor of all samples lived before 5500 years. And that fits pretty good with J2-M205* ancient DNAs, being from almost the same period as J2-M205* TMRCA.

    Brings us to the conclusion that major J2-M205* expansion of all living clades happened in area of Fertile Crescent 3500 years BCE. And prior to that was part of still unknown population.
    As it has already been concluded long ago here - https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibl...ph1089-y22066/
    Last edited by Dema; 09-01-19 at 16:25.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    366
    Points
    3,252
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,252, Level: 16
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 198
    Overall activity: 24.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    There is also Tuscany sample from the same study, but by his STRs its hard to predict the haplogroup. Major qustion is, does he belong to J2b-M205* or J2a-M410*

    I double-checked with one administrator and he is much more leaning towards the J2-M205 side.

    This are his STR results in FTDNA order:

    ID NA20763 Tuscany, Italy [Italian] J2-M205*
    12 24 15 11 13-16 0 0 11 12 11 28 16 0-0 0 0 0 14 19 0 0-0-0-0 0 11 0-0 13 0 16 18 0-0 0 9
    Last edited by Dema; 08-01-19 at 12:36.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    245
    Points
    2,162
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,162, Level: 13
    Level completed: 4%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    as E-v13>PH1204* (also Montenegrin native).
    Vasojevici are most likely not native in Montenegro. It seems their tradition about Herzegovina is true because Herzegovina Vlach Bobani tribe, mentioned in 14th century turned out to be related to them (though no SNP confirmation yet). In addition in Croatia and even Slovenia in studies occurs a haplotype which is little more distant to Vasojevici (7/67 including some slow STR's) and has unique value of dys458=13. This haplotype does not occur anywhere East of Drina river/Montenegro so that does point for them being native in modern day Croatia. There is one Greek PH1246 which maybe has a more distant relation to them, hard to say often on 37 STR's if they are of the same clade for PH1246. If he is not (and that is probably likely) they are certainly some Western Illyrian tribe. That's why their cluster is not found in Albanians, similarly how J-PH1602 is not found in Albanians either.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    366
    Points
    3,252
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,252, Level: 16
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 198
    Overall activity: 24.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Vasojevici are most likely not native in Montenegro. It seems their tradition about Herzegovina is true because Herzegovina Vlach Bobani tribe, mentioned in 14th century turned out to be related to them (though no SNP confirmation yet). In addition in Croatia and even Slovenia in studies occurs a haplotype which is little more distant to Vasojevici (7/67 including some slow STR's) and has unique value of dys458=13. This haplotype does not occur anywhere East of Drina river/Montenegro so that does point for them being native in modern day Croatia. There is one Greek PH1246 which maybe has a more distant relation to them, hard to say often on 37 STR's if they are of the same clade for PH1246. If he is not (and that is probably likely) they are certainly some Western Illyrian tribe. That's why their cluster is not found in Albanians, similarly how J-PH1602 is not found in Albanians either.

    This specific part about oral tradition of Montenegrin and North Albanian 15 century clans having origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina has been debunked thru genetic researches.
    As majority of 15 century Malisor tribes belongs to haplogroups E-v13, J2b2, and R1b. While Bosnia and specifically Hercegovina part is dominated with haplogroup I2a1-CTS10228 up to 70 %.

    E-v13 in Bosnia is mostly represented in Serbs, in Republika Srpska, in Croatia also at Serbs at Knin and more south to Dalmatian coasts, even tho there is of course Croatian and Bosnian clades also.
    One fair part of these seems to be Montenegrin emigrants strait into "Krajina region" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...ier#Background


    I am aware of Croats and Slovens found within E-v13>PH1204* branch. It is not relevant as their distant (lets say 500 - 1000 years back) origin is not known.
    They are brother clades to Montenegrin PH1204* and they are scattered so no real indication of history is known.

    Regarding one Vlach found in Bosnia who is PH1204, that changes nothing about their origin being native Montenegrins. Brotherhood with centuries of history outweighs one Vlach sample.

    What is known for sure is that Vasojevici have history of being Montenegrin tribe, and they just as many other Malisor tribes had oral stories of same forfather and origin of Hercegovina.

    Both stories of same for forfather and origin from Hercegovina have been debunked. But possibility is higher that they are native Montenegrins as there is high percentage of E-v13, just as we find it at even higher percentages more south towards Albanians and not northwest towards Bosnia.

    Reason why Albanians still dont have clear confirmation of E-v13>PH1204* or clades like you mentioned J2b>L283>PH1602 is because as it seems general population, and especially Albanians went thru vast bottleneck effect.
    And then rapidly after fifth century in Common Era started to expand. I am guessing that there have been lost great deal of direct paternal lines in sense of subclades only in last 2000 years, while these that survived, perhaps had luck to expand.
    Also E-v13>PH1246 was obviously lost among Albanians and Paleo-Balkan remaining populations since it was slavicized recently in Montenegro. So there is no wonder why it does not exist among Albanians today.
    It was slavicized together with majority of that Montenegrin 20% E-v13.

    I welcome discussion but i dont want to turn thread into E-v13 debate as clearly thread is dedicated to J2 Italians. If you wish you can open a thread of quote me or make question about E-v13 in any thread that has anything to do with Vasojevici or E-v13 and i will gladly answer.

    So i will respect thread purpose and continue to comment if there is need and discussion about J2 haplogroup at Italians.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-17
    Posts
    113
    Points
    1,689
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,689, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 29.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    Those Albanian clans that have tradition of coming from more North like Hercegovina/Bosnia don't have tradition of coming from Slavic speakers in that area but they were actually Latin speakers or Albanian speakers possibly and not Slavic so only logical they don't belong to I2a1b or any of the common Slavic branches in that area since they were not Slavs, South Slavs majority belonging to I2a1b doesn't necessarily disprove such a theory. Those people that came from more North were supposedly natives that were pushed out by Slavs or later Ottomans. It's possible the high Slavic male lineages in those areas is a bottle neck effect also. So genetics technically don't disprove it.

    I'm not saying that the theory is true or that they came from there , but this was also mentioned by Coon especially who studied Albanians for like 10 years. Genetics haven't really debunked it. Especially when it was said that a lot of those areas were depopulated of their native population.

    You also have E1b found in ancient samples more north, R1b l23 , J2b2 , of course they were bronze age samples and neolithic so they belong to older clades. But it's possible some people carrying these haplogroups from those areas at one point migrated south?

    Shala tribe had tradition of coming from Plains of Kosovo also . Northern Albania served as a refuge area , not every Malsor tribe in that area is native, many possibly came from neighboring areas. This is only logical if you take a look at the history of the Balkans like the Romans and the Antes, Sklavenis and Avars that invaded and raided the area ... Serbs and Croats only settled after these people and absorbed whatever natives or Slavs were left.

    Of course we would need to test South Slavs that belong to various native ydna's to compare with Albanians to test this theory and not I2a1b or R1a. But you also had different migrations during Ottoman Empire and Habsburg into areas more North , by Serbs especially, and bottle neck effects which have affected these things.


    Not finding high R1b L23, Ev13 or J2b2 in Bosnia or Croatia today means practically nothing when you consider ancient samples that were found in Croatia that belonged to such ydna's, that would be like arguing that they could not of existed in ancient times either because they dont exist there in high percentage today, it just means a bottle neck effect has occured , native male lineages were replaced with Slavic male lineages due to migrations + bottle neck / founder effect .


    I personally don't think every Malsor tribe is native to Northern Albania , some were Ilyrians or Thracians that came from neighboring areas or atleast their founders were since such tribes possibly did not exist at that time, oldest mention is of Berisha tribe dating back to 13th century. This is my personal belief. I haven't seen any genetic evidence that debunks this.

    I refuse to believe that all of my ancestors continously lived in what is today Northern Albania for thousands of years without moving or having come from somewhere else... not even my paternal ancestors... those mirditors matching us practically means nothing ... no indication that our J2b2 expanded from there or originated there .

    We also have a minority of I2a1b , R1a and I1 Albanians in the North since you mentioned possible Slavic male lineages and also your J2b1 which is found in South Slavs and is clearly Slavicized.... who knows where these people lived in the Balkans lets say 1000 years ago or where they came from or with who...

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    366
    Points
    3,252
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,252, Level: 16
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 198
    Overall activity: 24.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    If you want, please open a new thread named "Do Malisor clans originate in Bosnian Hercegovina" or similar and write there all this you written here, also you are free to quote me there if you think something i said is not correct, and we can debate it there. It is very easy to prove that they dont originate in Bosnia, and much of this that you written above does not make sense at all, but i dont want to continue this conversation in thread that is dedicated to J2 Italians. It makes no sense to argue about it here.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •