Scythian DNA

bicicleur 2

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it's a good end of the week

after Altaïan and Estonian, now Scythian mtDNA

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615#t1

ncomms14615-f2.jpg


ncomms14615-f4.jpg

black is Scythian

ncomms14615-f7.jpg
 
ncomms14615-f3.jpg


this is the most interesting conclusion :
multiregional model is prefered, although western model can't be excluded

Scythian uniformity through cultural exchanges

and eastern Scythian continuity into Turkic tribes
 
I have kits of 3 IA Steppe guys. Do we have more in GedMatch?

M348213i0247F999969Rise607F999965Rise902
scythianAltai, Russia, Verh-Uimon,2kyaRussia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai2kya
Run time 11.07Run time11.91Run time9.23
S-Indian 0.67S-Indian-S-Indian0.92
Baloch 24.99Baloch18.57Baloch19.12
Caucasian 7.68Caucasian1.12Caucasian7.36
NE-Euro 45.27NE-Euro29.87NE-Euro32.39
SE-Asian 0.83SE-Asian0.97SE-Asian0.28
Siberian 6.39Siberian20.18Siberian22.17
NE-Asian 1.31NE-Asian11.59NE-Asian6.52
Papuan -Papuan1.39Papuan-
American 2.85American4.06American4.3
Beringian 1.40Beringian5.05Beringian4.25
Mediterranean 8.62Mediterranean6.6Mediterranean1.18
SW-Asian -SW-Asian-SW-Asian-
San -San-San-
E-African -E-African-E-African-
Pygmy -Pygmy-Pygmy-
W-African -W-African0.59W-African1.52

Anybody knows where is the Scythian sample from and how old it is?
Do we have Pazyryk kit?
 
Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"
The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."
 
The same was said about ANI as well. That it's from Yamnaya, not the latter steppe cultures.

*EDIT* my comment was contained in Angela's tweet quote.

We have early Yamnaya expansion evidence all over the place. This is really interesting.
 
Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"
The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."
I think she said it on the condition that okunevo and karasuk also have an admixture of yamna and east Eurasian. However, okunevo people was directly connected to malta, being more archaic than yamna/ afanasievo people.
Capture2.png


We should consider anthropoly and archaeology also,
Actually east scythian was related with raindeer people.
see this scythian artifact, which the horse wore at that time.
hermitagepazyryk34a.jpg

tattoo%20on%20hand%20and%20with%20a%20drawing%20of%20dear.jpg


Of course, they were related with afanasievo culture in Altai, b/c scythian elite had elomgated skulls like afanasievo's. We can ask another question of whether the afanasievo was an elite group.

But anthropologically they resemble Okunevo and karasuks.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33566-Was-Afontova-Gora-an-ancestor-of-Afanasievo-yamna-or-not (post #18)
Moreover, I think the east scythian genetic admixture is close to okunevo and karasuk than yamna/ afanasievo.
 
Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"
The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."

the Yamnayans were ousted from the steppe by Sintashta, but some pockets of eastern Yamna must have survived here and there
actually full Yamnayans, not just some Yamna DNA diluted into Sintashta DNA
hence R1b-Z2103 still surviving today
hence Tochars found in the Tarim basin
maybe eastern Scythians originated in some remote Altaï valley from a lost Yamna tribe
if I recall well, the Pazyrik were one of the oldest Scythians found
 
Wait a minute here. Look at the early Sarmatian samples. They look like Andronovo/Srubnaya with some Siberian, so Iranian speaking steppe are descended from both Yamnaya and latter steppe.

In other words Indo-Iranian has surely been spoken on the steppe since Yamnaya.
 
If it comes to admixtures. A case could be made that Scythian was made by 70% Andronovo, 15% of some Siberian population (which we don't have sample yet), and 15% Iranian Neolithic. Iranian Neolithic, could be actually something similar, offshoot of Iranian Farmers, who lived in BMAC. Andronovo had very intense contact with BMAC farmers.

0.7 0.15 0.15
M608028RISE505M937770I1671Model ScytianM348213i0247
AndronovoUnknown SiberianIran Late Neolithic 7,000 scythian
Run time13.24Run time0Run time5.12Run time Run time11.07
S-Indian0.54S-Indian0S-Indian2.64S-Indian 0.77S-Indian 0.67
Baloch21.23Baloch5Baloch56.25Baloch 24.05Baloch24.99
Caucasian2.4Caucasian0Caucasian32.91Caucasian 6.62Caucasian7.68
NE-Euro56.39NE-Euro36NE-Euro0NE-Euro 44.87NE-Euro45.27
SE-Asian0SE-Asian0SE-Asian0SE-Asian - SE-Asian0.83
Siberian1.93Siberian35Siberian0Siberian 6.60Siberian6.39
NE-Asian0NE-Asian6NE-Asian0NE-Asian 0.90NE-Asian1.31
Papuan0Papuan0Papuan0Papuan - Papuan-
American1.05American14American0American 2.84American2.85
Beringian1.22Beringian4Beringian0Beringian 1.45Beringian1.4
Mediterranean14.37Mediterranean0Mediterranean0Mediterranean 10.06Mediterranean8.62
SW-Asian0SW-Asian0SW-Asian8SW-Asian 1.20SW-Asian-
San0San0San0San - San-
E-African0E-African0E-African0E-African - E-African-
Pygmy0.06Pygmy0Pygmy0.21Pygmy 0.07Pygmy-
W-African0.81 W-African0 W-African0 W-African 0.57 W-African-
 
Wait a minute here. Look at the early Sarmatian samples. They look like Andronovo/Srubnaya with some Siberian, so Iranian speaking steppe are descended from both Yamnaya and latter steppe.

In other words Indo-Iranian has surely been spoken on the steppe since Yamnaya.

I have posted some comments about this on Eurogenes.

I will copy-paste them here.

The appearance of the Turkic language is very recent but the genetic signature of them is more ancient and goes far into early Iron Age. Simply because allot of the Western Turkic groups are basically turkified Iranic tribes.

Take a note, the article even states the Eastern Scythians were most similar to Kipchaks. Kipchaks are amnong the most West Eurasian like groups among Turkic speakers infact since decades scientist argue that Kipchaks are basically turkified Scythians.

Also interesting how the study points out most genetic similarity to Central Asians and Caucasians for West Scythians which again proves my point that when most Indo_Iranian tribes emerged they were already heavily mixed with more CHG/Iran_Neo like groups from cultures like the BMAC. In fact the origin of the Scythians seems to be the southern parts of the Andronovo culture close to Yaz culture. Thats also where Greek sources point to where Scythians came from. It's pity that they have no Anatolian_Neo sample to compare with. Some of "WHG" in Iron AGE Adygei and Russia is most likely Anatolian_Neo derived.

Also the study pretty much confirmed by we all should know. Scythians were basically West Eurasian with some East Eurasian admixture towards the East. And they appear like one uniform group debunking allot of biased theories about their origin being mixed or them being some kind of multi-culti group mixed of Iranics, Uralics, Turkics, Slavs. The opposite is the case they have been absorbed by some Turkics, Uralics, and Slavs but their origin is clear visibly Iranic.

The paper is bad in expressing itself but it basically confirms that the whole Steppe was quite homogenous(relative for such a huge territory) what can be explained with the uniformity of their material culture. Uniformity of material culture => one culture => one people. If they were a multi-culti groups they would not have a uniform culture. They simply had the typical neighboring admixtures that you would expect to get through contact.

also striking that the paper actually says that the Eastern Scythians resembled Kipchaks while today these guys live in the Western Steppes near the Caucasus. Whle the Western Scythians resembled Caucasians and Central Asians. Just shows you how much the Steppes have shifted towards East Eurasian DNA throughout the time. Which is also confirmed by the paper and as we all know by historic accounts.
 
The Scythians themselves would be derived from a Srubnaya like culture. Infact East Iranic tribes as a whole show more genetic similarities to Srubna/Yaz culture than Andronovo or Sintashta. We need to change our understanding of Indo_Iranians. Since years I have been arguing that the Indo_Iranians do not derive from one single culture (Sintashta) but a network/complex of cultures. Sintashta/Andronovo seem to be early reflections of some very ancient nowadays extinct Indo_Iranian branches. The Srubna and/or Yaz culture seem to be the origin of most East Iranic branches while West Iranic branches seem to have evolved out of a merging of Yaz and Kura Araxes elements.

And yet again another kick in the teeth of people still claiming Ossetians are "Iranified Caucasians". Once again I have been arguing with people that I expect that the R1b and G2a in Ossetians is Sarmatian derived but these people have always stubbornly and simplisticly been saying Sarmatians=R1a therefore Ossetians = Caucasian language shifters.

But from the data we have collected so far the Sarmatians and, their subbranch, the Alans belonged to various Haplogroups such as G2a, R1a, J1, R1b, J2.


Note a Sarmatian sample turned out with yDNA R1b.
 
The paper basically speaks of Yamnaya like ancestry with East Asian admixture.

The fact that all the Scythic groups had some East Eurasian ancestry also points to an more Eastern point of origin for the Scythic groups which is in the southern parts of Andronovo complex close to Yaz culture as pointed out by ancient Greeks.

And bout the figure 7 The light blue component seems to be a West and East Eurasian mixed component modeled after modern Central Asians.


According to the study West Scythian ancestry is strongest in groups from the Caucasus, West Asia and some East Europeans. From their samples Azeris, Iranians, Adygei, Lezgians and some other group from Russia share most with the West Scythians. While East Scythians look most similar to Tajiks, Kipchaks and Uzbeks.
 
I have posted some comments about this on Eurogenes.

I will copy-paste them here.

"Simply because allot of the Western Turkic groups are basically turkified Iranic tribes. "

Thanks god, some truth...
 
Alan

It seems You were correct when You where saying that Sintashta was a dead end.

Btw that R1b belongs to Yamna/Poltavka Z2108 lineage. I suppose in Iran there will be a lot off it today. Unfortunatly Iran is not well sampled.
 
Sintashta was a dead end.

As an aside, this is also what Gramkelidze, Ivanov & Grigoryev (the latter of whom wrote a huge tome on Sintashta-Arkaim) stated decades ago. I never knew what to make of it.
 
Do they carried R1a Z94?I've read about Sarmatians:

In a study conducted in 2014 by Gennady Afanasiev et al. on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be extracted from a total of 7. [clarification needed][23][clarification needed]
In 2015, the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted research on various Sarmato-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In these analyses, the two Alan samples from the 4th to 6th century AD turned out to belong to yDNA haplogroups G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while two of the three Sarmatian samples from the 2nd to 3rd century AD were found to belong to yDNA haplogroup J1-M267 while one belonged to R1a.[24] Three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from the 8th to 9th century AD turned out to have yDNA corresponding to haplogroups G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#Genetics
 
As an aside, this is also what Gramkelidze, Ivanov & Grigoryev (the latter of whom wrote a huge tome on Sintashta-Arkaim) stated decades ago. I never knew what to make of it.

Didn't knew that already Gramkelidze, Ivanov and co were saying the same. But Sintashta looks like a dead end, maybe playing some role for modern Indo_Aryans culturally or they were related to Indo_Aryans since their costumes were similar going by the Veda. However the genetic signature of Indo_Aryans points to an more Iran_Neo than Anatolian_Neo like contribution. Which is the reason why Lazaridis says a Yamnaya like group being the origin for the admixture in South_Central Asia makes more. Therefore Sintashta seems to be some early extension of an Indo_Iranian culture that died out for most.
 
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Didn't knew that already Gramkelidze, Ivanov and co were saying the same. But Sintashta looks like an dead end, maybe playing some role for modern Indo_Aryans culturally or they were related to Indo_Aryans since their costumes were similar going by the Veda. However the genetic signature of Indo_Aryans points to an more Iran_Neo l than Anatolian_Neo like oontribution. Which is the reason why Lazaridis says a Yamnaya like group being the origin for the admixture in South_Central Asia makes more. Therefore Sintashta seems to be some early extension of an Indo_Iranian culture that died out for most.

I agree that it seems like a dead end, the Andronovo horizon as a whole perhaps, which is ironic given the time and energy that was expended trying to create fits for India using them.

ncomms14615-f7.jpg


This is what ADMIXTURE looks like when you know how to use it, i.e. you go from the actual ancient genome, i.e. CHG, not like that strange Willerslev group run.

Fwiw, we had some arguments about Gramkelidze here on this site where I said that there was a lot in his work which needed to be considered, but it wasn't a very popular idea with anyone but me.

Interesting that the eastern Scythians are closest to modern Kipchaks, and western Scythians to people of the Caucasus.

I think some people may have missed that Lazaridis is one of the authors of this study.
 
in this admixture graph Andronovo looks like lost in BA Altaï and Scythian
but Indian anciant DNA is lacking to judge the situation over there, same for Iranian Medes & Persians
 

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