Paleolithic and Mesolithic migrations in Europe and Siberia


Thanks, really good Information.

The most notable feature is Okunev artificial deformation of skulls. It is expressed in a large skewness and flatness occipital-parietal department. The center of this flatness occurs in the region compounds the parietal and occipital bones, at least - in the area obeliona. Designed for fixing the height of the deformation index of the occiput (EWI) and the index of the occiput (IPE) have revealed a similarity with the other series of skulls, deformed in the occipital-parietal region and originality okunevtsev. EHS features a series parietal deformation of non-deformed and brings with okunevtsami skulls from burial pit and pit-Catacomb culture of Kalmykia, Zoroastrians Frinkenta (XIII c.), Men's series of the Nestorian cemeteries XIII century. Chu Valley. IPE characterizes the specificity of strain Okunev skulls. According to this index closest to the population Okunev culture Yamnik(?) Kalmykia

1.The deformation culture among Afanasievo, catacomb and okunevo contiuned definately to only scythian/Hun elites, not commoners, like this:
Alekseeva EA Reconstruction of the face on the skull of the male burial Ustyug 1 (Bakal culture, V-VI cent. BC ): I think he would be a scythian elite.
ustug_all.jpg


In early Okunev monuments are individual Caucasoid and Mongoloid skull, do not carry traces of cross-breeding. By the late stages of the culture there is a certain homogenization of the population. Compare okunevtsev skulls with lots of skulls from burial grounds in Siberia and the Eastern cultures of the Neolithic and paleometal shows that okunevtsy belong to the circle metisnye populations.

Ya, that one is a mistery. And the Caucasoid might be remnants of Afanasievo people, because afansievo people merged with local okunevo people. As far as I know, okunevo tuva cranial series resemble late yamna series.
http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES4034web/07Sokolova(434-456).pdf

Noteworthy okunevtsev certain similarity with the population era of Kalmykia and the Astrakhan bronze right bank. The skulls from burial pit culture of this region characterized Caucasoid features and brahikraniey. In this series are artificially deformed skull, the shape of which is similar to the strain Okunev. Unfortunately, significant gaps in the cranial materials Neolithic-bronze from the territory of Kazakhstan and Iriuralya, intermediate territory between Siberia and South Eastern Europe, did not allow us to determine the path of movement of European workers.

The author’s anthropological analysis is consistent with the archaelogical data that there has been no evidence for western people to enter western steppe in south siberia before 2,000bc. (we should not explain it by a cowboy story)
Again I want to ask a question of how the afanasievo people migrated in Altai without footprints in western steppe? I always think that they used Ural forests/forest steppe with lots of food where is cool in summer, and warm in winter. That is why animal husbandry and copper mining was developed in the east Urals even in 4th millenium bc. How come ancient people tried to migrate to the coldest area from warm area? As far as I know, winter temperature in mongolia steppe is below -40C, but -12C even in Karelia, Russia. How come yamna people knew there was copper in altai, not knowing copper in sintashta before 2,000bc?
= how to explain the yamna migration in Russian Academy?

In terms of cranial morphology, the Afanasyev people were very similar to those associated with the synchronous Pit-grave (Yamnaya) culture of the Russian Plain. Two hypothesis have been advanced to explain the origin of the Afanasyev population. In early studies, the morphological similarity between the Afanasyev and Pit-grave people was explained by a large-scale migration of Caucasoids from Eastern Europe to Southern Siberia and Easter Central Asia (Debetz, 1948; Alexeyev, 1961). Later, Alexeyev (1989: 350 – 355) discussed another possibility: the Afanasyev people had independently descended from an early Caucasoid population whose homeland was the eastern part of the Eurasian steppe belt.

Nor are these affi nities shown by the Afanasyev people disregarding isolated Central and Western European ties of Saldyar and Afanasyeva Gora. Despite this, the ties of the Afanasyev groups with the early and late Catacomb are distributed approximately evenly. The general conclusion is rather modest: Afanasyev roots apparently lie in Eastern European steppes and forest-steppes, but relating them to a specific culture is impossible.
A.G. Kozintsev(2009)
 
Thanks, really good Information.



1.The deformation culture among Afanasievo, catacomb and okunevo contiuned definately to only scythian/Hun elites, not commoners, like this:
Alekseeva EA Reconstruction of the face on the skull of the male burial Ustyug 1 (Bakal culture, V-VI cent. BC ): I think he would be a scythian elite.
ustug_all.jpg




Ya, that one is a mistery. And the Caucasoid might be remnants of Afanasievo people, because afansievo people merged with local okunevo people. As far as I know, okunevo tuva cranial series resemble late yamna series.
http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES4034web/07Sokolova(434-456).pdf



The author’s anthropological analysis is consistent with the archaelogical data that there has been no evidence for western people to enter western steppe in south siberia before 2,000bc. (we should not explain it by a cowboy story)
Again I want to ask a question of how the afanasievo people migrated in Altai without footprints in western steppe? I always think that they used Ural forests/forest steppe with lots of food where is cool in summer, and warm in winter. That is why animal husbandry and copper mining was developed in the east Urals even in 4th millenium bc. How come ancient people tried to migrate to the coldest area from warm area? As far as I know, winter temperature in mongolia steppe is below -40C, but -12C even in Karelia, Russia. How come yamna people knew there was copper in altai, not knowing copper in sintashta before 2,000bc?
= how to explain the yamna migration in Russian Academy?




A.G. Kozintsev(2009)

Ok...talking about a flat occiput....


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My friend, could you explain me your point here?

Of course!
When I compare genetics with archeology the essence is:

- Genetics: roots in Omsk/Seima-Turbino!?
Gedmatch results of my autosomal DNA with ancient aDNA material. This was the result:
1. Ust-Ishii Siberia 45kya up to 6cM, Omsk, Seima-Turbino
2. Ne 1 Hungary 7,2 kya up to 5cM, Neoltihic Hungary
3. Clovis Montana 12,5 kya up to 4cM, Native America, ANE like
4. Loschbour Lux 8 kya up to 4cM, WHG
5. LBK Stuttgart 7 kya up to 3cM, Neolithic Southern Germany
6. Br 2 Hungary 3,2 kya up to 3cM Bronze Age Hungary
7. Rise Sweden 3,7 KY up to 3 cM R1b U106 Corded Ware Sweden

- Archeology: Bronze Age Sögel warriors, Prof L. Kooijmans(1998):
''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example. (that's my mothers place of birth !- Northener) It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

This supposed immigration of Bronze Age warriors was about 1600 BC.

- Archeology: Sögel warriors are rooted in Seima-Turbino, Dr. S.A, Grigoryev (2002)
"In Northern Germany and Denmark, where all the processes were underway but some at a later date than in more southerly areas, celts and spear-heads with a decorated socket inheriting directly Seima-Turbino traditions, appear only from the timecorresponding to stage Br B/1 in Southern Germany(Fig. 97) [Müller-Karpe, 1980, Taf. 501, 504, 506]"

I know this is a short cut, the reality is always complicated, but to give you a an idea why I made this statement.



Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
 
I'm sticked to my chair, and my legs can no more carry me (by surprise) -
two problems: what confidence in Gedmatch? Some more
Ust 'Ishim has no North Sea, no Baltic, only a few Atlantic, and is drifted towards SE-Asia - you have surely some good ANE taste as other northern Europeans but...
concerning Grigoryev, I have some doubts; it's true that in what I red (an abstract) he spoke of a Seima-Turbino influence upon people of the Steppes, already kurganized, what according to him created the future Germanic, Baltic and Slavic cultures before they moved westwards (he spoke that Celts received too some influence! even until Gaul) - but let' be cautious; Germanics are Y-R1b-U106°Y-I1+Y-R1a but this R1a is specific (and rather CWC or just pre-CWC?) - to me Seyma-Turbino is rather a Y-N1 phenomenon, perhaps with some taste of a branch of Y-Q, before I know more - what don't prove there has not been cultural influences at the mergins.
It's true I know little yet about all these chains of more or less lined and derived ancient cultures -
 
I'm sticked to my chair, and my legs can no more carry me (by surprise) -
two problems: what confidence in Gedmatch? Some more
Ust 'Ishim has no North Sea, no Baltic, only a few Atlantic, and is drifted towards SE-Asia - you have surely some good ANE taste as other northern Europeans but...
concerning Grigoryev, I have some doubts; it's true that in what I red (an abstract) he spoke of a Seima-Turbino influence upon people of the Steppes, already kurganized, what according to him created the future Germanic, Baltic and Slavic cultures before they moved westwards (he spoke that Celts received too some influence! even until Gaul) - but let' be cautious; Germanics are Y-R1b-U106°Y-I1+Y-R1a but this R1a is specific (and rather CWC or just pre-CWC?) - to me Seyma-Turbino is rather a Y-N1 phenomenon, perhaps with some taste of a branch of Y-Q, before I know more - what don't prove there has not been cultural influences at the mergins.
It's true I know little yet about all these chains of more or less lined and derived ancient cultures -

That's the amazing part in genetics, Moesan!

One way or another: there is a Steppe/Siberian substrate in my North Dutch DNA.

And yes it's partly a matter of pouring water into wine, when it has lost the title wine?
There are thousand of years in between. Tough to oversee al the consequences of that.
My favorite metaphor is that genetic population reconstructions are like reconstructions of streams in a jacuzzi. Scientist can develop good models for it. But, certainly with human behavior and the past, a model never equals reality. You can't simple oversee the whole reality.

That said.
The advantage of Gedmatch not the admixtures but the ability to 1:1 compare with ancient DNA, is: it contains no pre fab labels like "North Sea" etc. Nothing wrong with admixtures very insightful, but they put it in ready mades, in frames. With all the disadvantages along with it, like it depends heavily on the presumptions behind it.
And of course a basic thing like the quality of the ancient sample can make a good difference in the result of the ability to compare.

But in the end there is a slice of DNA which started in Siberia and ended not far from the North Sea shore.
1000 ways how it could get there.

How about this educated guess: I suppose that one prominent breeding ground of the Bronze Age culture was indeed the Steppe. The Bronze age package and 'pioniers', trough mixtures, transformations, fusion with locals, eventually reached about 1600 BC the Nordic Europeans territory....And there it left thousand years later some residues in the genetic gene pool of that area. Sounds not odd to me ;)

Anyone comments? Adds? Corrections. Please feel free!
 
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I'm sticked to my chair, and my legs can no more carry me (by surprise) -
two problems: what confidence in Gedmatch? Some more
Ust 'Ishim has no North Sea, no Baltic, only a few Atlantic, and is drifted towards SE-Asia - you have surely some good ANE taste as other northern Europeans but...
concerning Grigoryev, I have some doubts; it's true that in what I red (an abstract) he spoke of a Seima-Turbino influence upon people of the Steppes, already kurganized, what according to him created the future Germanic, Baltic and Slavic cultures before they moved westwards (he spoke that Celts received too some influence! even until Gaul) - but let' be cautious; Germanics are Y-R1b-U106°Y-I1+Y-R1a but this R1a is specific (and rather CWC or just pre-CWC?) - to me Seyma-Turbino is rather a Y-N1 phenomenon, perhaps with some taste of a branch of Y-Q, before I know more - what don't prove there has not been cultural influences at the mergins.
It's true I know little yet about all these chains of more or less lined and derived ancient cultures -

Add nice recent map, anonymous autor, about the spread of Pazyryk Scythian. I know no reference, but the picture of Germany/Netherlands/Denmark fascinates me....stay on your chair ;)
246t5ia.png
 
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Add nice recent map, anonymous autor, about the spread of Pazyryk Scythian. I now no reference, but the picture of Germany/Netherlands/Denmark fascinates me....stay on your chair ;)
246t5ia.png
When did the scythian enter Ancient Japan? I never heard that nomad used ship.
 
Scythian were horse riding people. The problem is the horse was introduced to Janpan 4 century.
So the only chance is the ancient Gaya Kingdom, who migrated from Manchuria to ancient Korea and later ruled Ancient Japan after Yayoi. Most of japanese think that the Gaya people were japonics b/c of artifacts. Problem is Gaya people were legendary horse riding people.

see 1st century B.C. Gaya Armor in Korea:
MsyhssQ.jpg


Avar helmet, which was introduced to Europe,and later German tribes used.
rPtiFXQ.jpg


so result after Gaya and Yayoi ruling in ancient Japan:
F1.large.jpg


However, anthropologically koreans and japanese are different peoples. look like the same situation between Yamna and afanasievo.
 
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@Northerner: I don't deny the taste of far N-E Europe (close Ural and even some traces farther) in W-Europe, particularly among Scandinavians (less than Finns, of course) - but I was amazed (I was obliged to swallow a 1/2 L of bad wine to recover some forces) by the preference for a so old and far pop in tour auDNA - an element in types of people in Slavic Europe and North Europe shows something 'mongoloid' (the exotic part of 'east-baltic' composit), but rather different from the today Amerindians as a whole and from SE-Asians -
SO It was only this FRIST place in the palmares which astnished me - I already wrote some parts of the ANE auDNA elements were inherited from a pop which had some ties with a parlty undifferencied relic Eurasian pop of ancient times -
I regreat we are are obliged to speak again of classical anthropology; but auDNA (with the today methods) can hardly give answer about old crossings of diverse pops VS old undifferencied 'stock' pops with raciation subsequent process, when sometimes a typologic+metric study can give clues - about Okunevo/Karasuk I red opposite thoughts + a thirs way: A) two "pure" groups mixing since the begenning VS old undifferenced pop; + B) someones add this last situation did not prevent introgressions of pure differencied groups (noticely a Yamanaylike group and a N-China group) - even if this last group could be the bearers of Y-N1 and of Seyma-Turbino adaptations, and future motor of Finnic-Ugric tribes spite the high faced type of China did not leave too much physcial traces, I prefer the B) explanation -

@Johen: I think the map posted by Northerner is an ANE au DNA density map; he could confirm or infirm us. I already saw this map (which authords?)
 
Oops: too much wine of yesterday?
I forgotten the third opinion (I would put in first in fact!): only undifferencied people in early Okunevo -
the question is that every culture is treated as a monolithic one demically speaking, when in fact there were variations between sites of the same cultures - sometimes limitedn sometimes striking), so sometimes people are arguing one against another and sure of their opinions, when in fact they do'nt speak always of the exact same object -
 
Scythian were horse riding people. The problem is the horse was introduced to Janpan 4 century.
So the only chance is the ancient Gaya Kingdom, who migrated from Manchuria to ancient Korea and later ruled Ancient Japan after Yayoi. Most of japanese think that the Gaya people were japonics b/c of artifacts. Problem is Gaya people were legendary horse riding people.

However, anthropologically koreans and japanese are different peoples. look like the same situation between Yamna and afanasievo.

Fascinating Johen, compliments for your in debt knowledge!
What are your thoughts about the relation with my autosomal DNA and, regarding the picture, NW Europe/Germans in general? Why there is a red Scythian highlight in this region?
 
Oops: too much wine of yesterday?
I forgotten the third opinion (I would put in first in fact!): only undifferencied people in early Okunevo -
the question is that every culture is treated as a monolithic one demically speaking, when in fact there were variations between sites of the same cultures - sometimes limitedn sometimes striking), so sometimes people are arguing one against another and sure of their opinions, when in fact they do'nt speak always of the exact same object -

What a nice correspondence in our pidgin mix of 'vin-english' and as we call it Dutch stone coal english ;)
I guess my auDNA region had always been more connected with the Nordic hemisphere. Already in the FTDNA admixtures there were besides a big Scandinavian component some unexpected 'Finnish' components....
Besides the very clear Omsk connection the native American was very obvious and unexpected.
And regering my phenotype, always doubtful about those connections, I'am meso, high cranial vault, flat occiput, an especially broad face (hard to get good fitting glasses ;) and not because of obesitas (hahaha), besides that I'am very tall, long arms and legs....
Regarding my (grand-)parents my grandmother at fathers side could have had some Steppe influences, very tall and broad faced (=wide malars!), which gave here almost a Sibirid expression.
All for what it's worth. Projection;)
 
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Thanks for your admiration concerning my 'pidgin' english (I prefer "exotic", more dreamful) -
I'll send your private posts when I have time (it would not be too long) -
aside the presence of not neglictible Y-Q of supposed Steppes origin in Scandinavia, what make you think the map you posted is about Red Scythians? I believed it was about ANE DNA?
Thanks for answer.
 
Thanks for your admiration concerning my 'pidgin' english (I prefer "exotic", more dreamful) -
I'll send your private posts when I have time (it would not be too long) -
aside the presence of not neglictible Y-Q of supposed Steppes origin in Scandinavia, what make you think the map you posted is about Red Scythians? I believed it was about ANE DNA?
Thanks for answer.

Thanks in advance for the - excotic-privat posting! That's indeed a kind of difference Nordics seem to write somewhat curtly. But I like those Romanesk phrases like that of Michel Onfray (or that of my family in law from Northern France).

Red was a "Babylonian" mistake, red was the color of the hotspot on the map.....
 
Far-fetched 'ANE'/Steppe/Siberian influences?

A picture of my (very tall) grandmother:
28v5eh4.jpg


I guess the facial type expresses some influences.....
 
I think she has a lot from EHG/WHG. I think they had these small noses. I mean a low bridge, sky jump profile, and bigger lower flashy part.
 
I think she has a lot from EHG/WHG. I think they had these small noses. I mean a low bridge, sky jump profile, and bigger lower flashy part.

I guess we are getting now in the danger zone of the anthro fora, but tall, low nose bridge, snub/pug nose, broad cheeks....it al gives the impression of 'east baltic'
http://b2.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p458003/drkostbaltisch21iy.jpg (with also grey blue eyes, blond hair) or even a bit more like ANE, native american https://cdn.indiancountrymedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/diane_humetewa_2009_orig.jpg
Or this Selkup grandmother, look again to the eyes, nose and cheeks, the total facial impression:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Selkup_grandmother.jpg

She definitely has a an other kind of face than most NW Europeans!
 
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@Northerner: I'm afraid I'm growing old - my eyes red Ust'Ishim and I thought Mal'ta - but the first is very older and whatever the admixtures calculations, he was an older form of Humanity and so shared more DNA with a LOT of modern pops, in West or in East - more archaïc DNA, so my reaction was a bit over the reasonable level! THat said, could you tell us what exactly this beautiful map is about.
 

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