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Thread: More Neolithic Y-DNA and mtDNA from Hungary, Germany and Spain (Lipson et al. 2017)

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    I agree for a part - differences between geographically close cultures sepultures have sone meaning, vague ressemblances between cultures neatly geographically separated have less meaning... details are needed.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Experimentation with agriculture dates to 22,000 YBP at the site of Ohalo in the Galilee region of Israel. This period of time was characterized by the Kebaran culture in the Levant region of West Asia, on the eastern mediterranean coast, sites sprung up such as Nahal Oren some 16,000 years ago. The succeeding culture (Natufian, roughly 14,000 YBP) was composed of semi-sedentary hunter gatherers living across the southern Levant that probably are the ancestors of the neolithic revolution`s first farmers. By the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (roughly 11,000 YBP) the advent of farming had arrived with the arrival of the world`s first cities. Sites like Jericho sprang up across the Jordan Valley towards Syria`s Golan heights. By the later PPNB (9,000-10,000 YBP), the neolithic package would have spread to nearby Cyprus and Anatolia from an origin point further within the Fertile Crescent. By roughly 8,500 years ago the Neolithic package would have reached westernmost Anatolia and the fringes of the Aegean world. Sites first began to appear in south-eastern Europe (Greece and the Balkans) particularly at Knossos (Crete) and on peninsular Greece at Franchthi cave and Thessaly. by 5,000 YBP farming had spread across mediterranean and central Europe reaching the British Isles. The mtdna haplogroups most closely associated with the neolithic revolution and it`s spread are Mtdna`s K1a, X1/X2 and N1a/N1b. On the y-dna side haplogroups F, G2a, H2, T1a and E-m123 subclades are associated with the neolithic revolution's spread from it's original origin point around Palestine/Israel in the southern Levant and it's subsequent expansion from the Jordan river valley to the Tagus river of Spain/Portugal via both mainland and maritime routes.
    Last edited by patrician; 14-04-17 at 17:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrician View Post
    Experimentation with agriculture dates to 22,000 YBP at the site of Ohalo in the Galilee region of Israel. This period of time was characterized by the Kebaran culture in the Levant region of West Asia, on the eastern mediterranean coast. the succeeding culture (Natufian, roughly 14,000 YBP) was composed of semi-sedentary hunter gatherers living across the southern Levant that probably are the ancestors of the neolithic revolution`s first farmers. By the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (roughly 11,000 YBP) the advent of farming had arrived with the arrival of the world`s first cities. Sites like Jericho sprang up across the Jordan Valley towards Syria`s Golan heights. By the later PPNB (9,000-10,000 YBP), the neolithic package would have spread to nearby Cyprus and Anatolia from an origin point further within the Fertile Crescent. By roughly 8,500 years ago the Neolithic package would have reached westernmost Anatolia and the fringes of the Aegean world. Sites first began to appear in south-eastern Europe (Greece and the Balkans) particularly at Knossos (Crete) and on peninsular Greece at Franchthi cave and Thessaly. by 5,000 YBP farming had spread across mediterranean and central Europe reaching the British Isles. The mtdna haplogroups most closely associated with the neolithic revolution and it`s spread are Mtdna`s K, X and N. On the y-dna side haplogroups G2a, H2, T1a and E-m123 subclades are associated with the neolithic revolution.
    If a lot of this post was a quote from another source, it should have been enclosed in quotes and you should have provided a link to that source.

    Also, we've already posted a lot here about the agricultural revolution which might interest you. Please avail yourself of the search engine to find them.


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    Hello, everyone. Please forgive my ignorance--I'm relatively new to all this. But it was my understanding that R1b lineages in Europe arose from bronze-age incursions from the steppe peoples. Am I then misreading some of your posts when you appear to write that it is instead associated with "indigenous" WHG populations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrician View Post
    Experimentation with agriculture dates to 22,000 YBP at the site of Ohalo in the Galilee region of Israel. This period of time was characterized by the Kebaran culture in the Levant region of West Asia, on the eastern mediterranean coast. the succeeding culture (Natufian, roughly 14,000 YBP) was composed of semi-sedentary hunter gatherers living across the southern Levant that probably are the ancestors of the neolithic revolution`s first farmers. By the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (roughly 11,000 YBP) the advent of farming had arrived with the arrival of the world`s first cities. Sites like Jericho sprang up across the Jordan Valley towards Syria`s Golan heights. By the later PPNB (9,000-10,000 YBP), the neolithic package would have spread to nearby Cyprus and Anatolia from an origin point further within the Fertile Crescent. By roughly 8,500 years ago the Neolithic package would have reached westernmost Anatolia and the fringes of the Aegean world. Sites first began to appear in south-eastern Europe (Greece and the Balkans) particularly at Knossos (Crete) and on peninsular Greece at Franchthi cave and Thessaly. by 5,000 YBP farming had spread across mediterranean and central Europe reaching the British Isles. The mtdna haplogroups most closely associated with the neolithic revolution and it`s spread are Mtdna`s K, X and N. On the y-dna side haplogroups G2a, H2, T1a and E-m123 subclades are associated with the neolithic revolution.
    Your dates are out
    Y-dna side haplogroups G2a, H2, T1a1 where already settled and farming and potting in central Germany 7100ybp ............part of LBK culture
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevenarmstrong View Post
    Hello, everyone. Please forgive my ignorance--I'm relatively new to all this. But it was my understanding that R1b lineages in Europe arose from bronze-age incursions from the steppe peoples. Am I then misreading some of your posts when you appear to write that it is instead associated with "indigenous" WHG populations?
    R1b existed throughout Mesolithic Europe and probably Asia. R1b-L151 specifically, the type 50%+ of men in France and Iberia and the British Isles belong to, derives from Bronze age Steppe incursions. The R1b Mesolithic Europeans belonged to, besides R1b-L151 which is ultimatly from Mesolithic Europe, basically went extinct.

    Some people here might argue R1b L151 is from Mesolithic Western Europeans but they're wrong. There's already sneak peaks from an upcoming ancient DNA paper confirming R1b and Steppe ancestry were introduced to Western Europe together. Papers to be published sometime this summer will bring an end to any debate about the origins of R1b L151.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Some people here might argue R1b L151 is from Mesolithic Western Europeans but they're wrong. There's already sneak peaks from an upcoming ancient DNA paper confirming R1b and Steppe ancestry were introduced to Western Europe together. Papers to be published sometime this summer will bring an end to any debate about the origins of R1b L151.
    What do you make of the absence of Western European R-GG400 in the phylogenetic analysis by Balanovsky et al. then? I think this makes Yamnaya a rather unlikely source of L51 and the later Western branches. One would expect to see at least some of the Yamnaya Y-DNA retained in West Europe vis-à-vis Neolithic-Mesolithic lineages despite founder effects in S116/U106, but it appears to be absent. Granted with the starlike pattern of M269 it's near impossible to be completely certain where the specific branches ultimately originated, but the general pattern doesn't really indicate a Russian origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    What do you make of the absence of Western European R-GG400 in the phylogenetic analysis by Balanovsky et al. then? I think this makes Yamnaya a rather unlikely source of L51 and the later Western branches. One would expect to see at least some of the Yamnaya Y-DNA retained in West Europe vis-à-vis Neolithic-Mesolithic lineages despite founder effects in S116/U106, but it appears to be absent. Granted with the starlike pattern of M269 it's near impossible to be completely certain where the specific branches ultimately originated, but the general pattern doesn't really indicate a Russian origin.
    Yamnaya was huge. Let's see what can be find in all its corners.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Granted with the starlike pattern of M269 it's near impossible to be completely certain where the specific branches ultimately originated, but the general pattern doesn't really indicate a Russian origin.
    That's because often modern Y DNA can tell us very little about the origins of haplogroups. This summer we'll probably get ancient DNA from Western Erope confirming that R1b-L151 exapnded with people heavy in Steppe ancestry. We might even get a R1b-L151 or even R1b-P312 straight from a Steppe sample. I would not be surprised at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    That's because often modern Y DNA can tell us very little about the origins of haplogroups. This summer we'll probably get ancient DNA from Western Erope confirming that R1b-L151 exapnded with people heavy in Steppe ancestry. We might even get a R1b-L151 or even R1b-P312 straight from a Steppe sample. I would not be surprised at all.
    But in this case it can. Have you read the paper?

    We already know that Bell Beaker had affinity to Corded Ware. However, its strongest affinity judging by the Rathlin samples appears to be to KO1.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yamnaya was huge. Let's see what can be find in all its corners.
    Perhaps so, but it's already by far the best studied archaeological culture in the corresponding timeframe, bar none. It would be slightly baffling if the main lineage stays put and survives in Mordvins, Kalmyks, Tatars, Ukrainians and so forth, while an elusive oddball goes on to make an epic conquest thousands of kilometers further west. Not impossible, but rather unlikely.

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    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    I'm going to start collecting posts which dispute R1b-L151's Steppe origin. Then, in maybe a few months, when ancient DNA proves its Steppe origin I'll show all the naysayers their posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    R1b existed throughout Mesolithic Europe and probably Asia. R1b-L151 specifically, the type 50%+ of men in France and Iberia and the British Isles belong to, derives from Bronze age Steppe incursions. The R1b Mesolithic Europeans belonged to, besides R1b-L151 which is ultimatly from Mesolithic Europe, basically went extinct.

    Some people here might argue R1b L151 is from Mesolithic Western Europeans but they're wrong. There's already sneak peaks from an upcoming ancient DNA paper confirming R1b and Steppe ancestry were introduced to Western Europe together. Papers to be published sometime this summer will bring an end to any debate about the origins of R1b L151.
    Thank you!

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    But in this case it can. Have you read the paper?

    We already know that Bell Beaker had affinity to Corded Ware. However, its strongest affinity judging by the Rathlin samples appears to be to KO1.

    A steppe originating male line would be significantly admixed by the time it gets to Scotland, just like Rathlin. I don't think a "stronger affinity" to KO1 really says anything, if I even buy it. Rathlin clearly has steppe ancestry which is the only thing that really matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Perhaps so, but it's already by far the best studied archaeological culture in the corresponding timeframe, bar none. It would be slightly baffling if the main lineage stays put and survives in Mordvins, Kalmyks, Tatars, Ukrainians and so forth, while an elusive oddball goes on to make an epic conquest thousands of kilometers further west. Not impossible, but rather unlikely.

    How is this unlikely? We have historical records of steppe cultures doing exactly this, repeatedly. These were the original horse Nomads, which is why they were such a vast culture and why their language is spoken from India to Ireland. How is L151 an "elusive oddball"? It's a descendant of lines we've found in ancient samples on the steppe. Just because we haven't found an ancient L151 or something closer doesn't make it a special mystery that undermines the notion of a steppe origin.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I'm going to start collecting posts which dispute R1b-L151's Steppe origin. Then, in maybe a few months, when ancient DNA proves its Steppe origin I'll show all the naysayers their posts.
    It won't matter. We could unfreeze a frozen R1b-L151 Samara HG back to life and even if he was speaking Hittite some people would still deny steppe PIE or L151 origin.

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    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Oh yes, and there are so many dumb people as me that don't believe very much that Earth is flat, in fact we might have some mental unpairment to recognise easily plain facts as you bros.

    By the way neither you nor Firehaired have found out that in the last CWC and BB papers the archaeologists admit the lack of material proofs linking the steppe with such cultures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I'm going to start collecting posts which dispute R1b-L151's Steppe origin. Then, in maybe a few months, when ancient DNA proves its Steppe origin I'll show all the naysayers their posts.
    It's quite immaterial to me where R1b-L151 originated - I'm perfectly happy with an origin on the steppe.

    However, Balanovsky et al. raise some good points which no one really addressed. Prophecies about future publications are boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    However, Balanovsky et al. raise some good points which no one really addressed.
    Such as? (genuinely curious)

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    It won't matter. We could unfreeze a frozen R1b-L151 Samara HG back to life and even if he was speaking Hittite some people would still deny steppe PIE or L151 origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenarmstrong View Post
    Such as? (genuinely curious)
    The main lineage found in Yamnaya (R1b-GG400) appears to have a rather local distribution within Europe, being mostly confined to eastern groups like Tatars, Mordvins, Ukrainians. It's summarized in Fig. 4:





    For their method/discussion you'll have to delve into the paper yourself (they essentially compared equal representative samples of various Eastern and Western European populations).

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    MarkoZ, that is not problematic as Yamnayists have as a matter of faith that they will find R1b-L51 and R1a in the Pontic steppe. If there are not material proofs about an expansion from the steppes to Europe DNA proofs don't matter also. I like this way to do science, it's possible to do everything possible!

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Oh yes, and there are so many dumb people as me that don't believe very much that Earth is flat, in fact we might have some mental unpairment to recognise easily plain facts as you bros.

    By the way neither you nor Firehaired have found out that in the last CWC and BB papers the archaeologists admit the lack of material proofs linking the steppe with such cultures?
    I didn't call anyone dumb. We are of course ignoring the fact that alot of Bell Beakers are just bell shaped corded ware.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    MarkoZ, that is not problematic as Yamnayists have as a matter of faith that they will find R1b-L51 and R1a in the Pontic steppe. If there are not material proofs about an expansion from the steppes to Europe DNA proofs don't matter also. I like this way to do science, it's possible to do everything possible!
    I think PIE was pre-yamnaya.

    I don't believe "have as a matter of fact" is really fair. There is now inexhaustible data indicating a steppe/NE European origin of IE. No one who buys this is ignoring anything.

    If you take all of the data: Archaeological, linguists, historical, and genetic, it's all supportive of this.

    In my opinion, the only other alternative that has SOME chance is Caucuses, but you bump into alot of problems. Next would be Zagros, which is even less likely. Remember we have historical records begining in 3000BC very close to some of these proposed West Asian homelands. Where are the Indoeuropeans? They're no where to be found, until Hittite of course, which is plainly obvious as are Iranians when they come on the historical scene 500 years later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I didn't call anyone dumb. We are of course ignoring the fact that alot of Bell Beakers are just bell shaped corded ware.
    Your reasoning can fall easily in a trap: Bell Beaker people didn't married local CWC people? why BB has a lesser "steppe" component if they came from there?? Just simple questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I think PIE was pre-yamnaya.

    I don't believe "have as a matter of fact" is really fair. There is now inexhaustible data indicating a steppe/NE European origin of IE. No one who buys this is ignoring anything.

    If you take all of the data: Archaeological, linguists, historical, and genetic, it's all supportive of this.

    In my opinion, the only other alternative that has SOME chance is Caucuses, but you bump into alot of problems. Next would be Zagros, which is even less likely. Remember we have historical records begining in 3000BC very close to some of these proposed West Asian homelands. Where are the Indoeuropeans? They're no where to be found, until Hittite of course, which is plainly obvious as are Iranians when they come on the historical scene 500 years later.
    Obviously is a matter of faith, nor fact, to believe that R1a and L51 was in Ukraine.

    But you are buying a car without motor: from archaeology there are not evidences, from linguistics there are a lot of animal and vegetal therms not found in the steppes, from the historical data you might quote which classic is pointing to the steppe, and from genetics all it is said, even by the labs, that CW came from a Yamnaya like pop. All this about the steppe is a big bluff that has survived so much as it was the theory that make some sense and by being feed by holy cows that can't see other things that fantastic green prairies. For the indoeuropean Urheimat I don't think it could be sought more south.

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