More Neolithic Y-DNA and mtDNA from Hungary, Germany and Spain (Lipson et al. 2017)

Since when did Yamnayans belong to R1* and R1b1*? These are lineages that date back to the Palaeolithic and formed respectively 23,000 and 20,000 years ago according to Yfull, at the time of the LGM. Over 15,000 years separate them from the lineages found in Yamna!

It was an ironic comment, not realy scientific.

But what it is true is that from "R1b came from the steppes as only was found there", now I'm eating a lot of pop corn seeing the steppe fans and fanatics of other forums in a denial state about the possibility that L51 appeared where it is now. I need to go to buy extra kilos of pop corn for the next weeks.
 
It was an ironic comment, not realy scientific.

But what it is true is that from "R1b came from the steppes as only was found there", now I'm eating a lot of pop corn seeing the steppe fans and fanatics of other forums in a denial state about the possibility that L51 appeared where it is now. I need to go to buy extra kilos of pop corn for the next weeks.

Possible; to date I think (without too much personal investment) that Y-L51 was born around Eastern Balkans (not Western I suppose) or a bit more northern, and took two routes: a mediterranean one, isles and Cy until Valencia through S-Italy, and a Danube one towards Alps... But who knows? if at clannic times, an Y lineage can keep on pure (Y-haplo speaking) a long time spite crossing alot of lands, it can pass unseen during sometimes before new archeology discoverings sing an other song...
 
The I2c is I2c a+ am I right ? isn't it the oldest one found ?

Sparkey would like this
 
Two wandering Yamnayans so (two fish-eaters buried in an extended kurgan known in English language as "mountain", no surprises so).

The Iberian samples are pre-BB.

First mountains were found in Leyla-Tepe
 
With that about kurgans it's a very tricky matter. To do a mound is a quite usual solution to reuse the earth of a burial, per example in some Mississipi cultures, and I doubt they have any relation with Yamnayans. Other case is megalithism itself, many dolmens were in fact buried in earth so their shape was identical of that of a kurgan. Sometimes I go to think if many kurgans are a would-be dolmen in a region with lack of big rocks.
 
I agree for a part - differences between geographically close cultures sepultures have sone meaning, vague ressemblances between cultures neatly geographically separated have less meaning... details are needed.
 
Experimentation with agriculture dates to 22,000 YBP at the site of Ohalo in the Galilee region of Israel. This period of time was characterized by the Kebaran culture in the Levant region of West Asia, on the eastern mediterranean coast, sites sprung up such as Nahal Oren some 16,000 years ago. The succeeding culture (Natufian, roughly 14,000 YBP) was composed of semi-sedentary hunter gatherers living across the southern Levant that probably are the ancestors of the neolithic revolution`s first farmers. By the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (roughly 11,000 YBP) the advent of farming had arrived with the arrival of the world`s first cities. Sites like Jericho sprang up across the Jordan Valley towards Syria`s Golan heights. By the later PPNB (9,000-10,000 YBP), the neolithic package would have spread to nearby Cyprus and Anatolia from an origin point further within the Fertile Crescent. By roughly 8,500 years ago the Neolithic package would have reached westernmost Anatolia and the fringes of the Aegean world. Sites first began to appear in south-eastern Europe (Greece and the Balkans) particularly at Knossos (Crete) and on peninsular Greece at Franchthi cave and Thessaly. by 5,000 YBP farming had spread across mediterranean and central Europe reaching the British Isles. The mtdna haplogroups most closely associated with the neolithic revolution and it`s spread are Mtdna`s K1a, X1/X2 and N1a/N1b. On the y-dna side haplogroups F, G2a, H2, T1a and E-m123 subclades are associated with the neolithic revolution's spread from it's original origin point around Palestine/Israel in the southern Levant and it's subsequent expansion from the Jordan river valley to the Tagus river of Spain/Portugal via both mainland and maritime routes.
 
Last edited:
Experimentation with agriculture dates to 22,000 YBP at the site of Ohalo in the Galilee region of Israel. This period of time was characterized by the Kebaran culture in the Levant region of West Asia, on the eastern mediterranean coast. the succeeding culture (Natufian, roughly 14,000 YBP) was composed of semi-sedentary hunter gatherers living across the southern Levant that probably are the ancestors of the neolithic revolution`s first farmers. By the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (roughly 11,000 YBP) the advent of farming had arrived with the arrival of the world`s first cities. Sites like Jericho sprang up across the Jordan Valley towards Syria`s Golan heights. By the later PPNB (9,000-10,000 YBP), the neolithic package would have spread to nearby Cyprus and Anatolia from an origin point further within the Fertile Crescent. By roughly 8,500 years ago the Neolithic package would have reached westernmost Anatolia and the fringes of the Aegean world. Sites first began to appear in south-eastern Europe (Greece and the Balkans) particularly at Knossos (Crete) and on peninsular Greece at Franchthi cave and Thessaly. by 5,000 YBP farming had spread across mediterranean and central Europe reaching the British Isles. The mtdna haplogroups most closely associated with the neolithic revolution and it`s spread are Mtdna`s K, X and N. On the y-dna side haplogroups G2a, H2, T1a and E-m123 subclades are associated with the neolithic revolution.

If a lot of this post was a quote from another source, it should have been enclosed in quotes and you should have provided a link to that source.

Also, we've already posted a lot here about the agricultural revolution which might interest you. Please avail yourself of the search engine to find them.
 
Hello, everyone. Please forgive my ignorance--I'm relatively new to all this. But it was my understanding that R1b lineages in Europe arose from bronze-age incursions from the steppe peoples. Am I then misreading some of your posts when you appear to write that it is instead associated with "indigenous" WHG populations?
 
Experimentation with agriculture dates to 22,000 YBP at the site of Ohalo in the Galilee region of Israel. This period of time was characterized by the Kebaran culture in the Levant region of West Asia, on the eastern mediterranean coast. the succeeding culture (Natufian, roughly 14,000 YBP) was composed of semi-sedentary hunter gatherers living across the southern Levant that probably are the ancestors of the neolithic revolution`s first farmers. By the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (roughly 11,000 YBP) the advent of farming had arrived with the arrival of the world`s first cities. Sites like Jericho sprang up across the Jordan Valley towards Syria`s Golan heights. By the later PPNB (9,000-10,000 YBP), the neolithic package would have spread to nearby Cyprus and Anatolia from an origin point further within the Fertile Crescent. By roughly 8,500 years ago the Neolithic package would have reached westernmost Anatolia and the fringes of the Aegean world. Sites first began to appear in south-eastern Europe (Greece and the Balkans) particularly at Knossos (Crete) and on peninsular Greece at Franchthi cave and Thessaly. by 5,000 YBP farming had spread across mediterranean and central Europe reaching the British Isles. The mtdna haplogroups most closely associated with the neolithic revolution and it`s spread are Mtdna`s K, X and N. On the y-dna side haplogroups G2a, H2, T1a and E-m123 subclades are associated with the neolithic revolution.

Your dates are out
Y-dna side haplogroups G2a, H2, T1a1 where already settled and farming and potting in central Germany 7100ybp ............part of LBK culture
 
Hello, everyone. Please forgive my ignorance--I'm relatively new to all this. But it was my understanding that R1b lineages in Europe arose from bronze-age incursions from the steppe peoples. Am I then misreading some of your posts when you appear to write that it is instead associated with "indigenous" WHG populations?

R1b existed throughout Mesolithic Europe and probably Asia. R1b-L151 specifically, the type 50%+ of men in France and Iberia and the British Isles belong to, derives from Bronze age Steppe incursions. The R1b Mesolithic Europeans belonged to, besides R1b-L151 which is ultimatly from Mesolithic Europe, basically went extinct.

Some people here might argue R1b L151 is from Mesolithic Western Europeans but they're wrong. There's already sneak peaks from an upcoming ancient DNA paper confirming R1b and Steppe ancestry were introduced to Western Europe together. Papers to be published sometime this summer will bring an end to any debate about the origins of R1b L151.
 
Some people here might argue R1b L151 is from Mesolithic Western Europeans but they're wrong. There's already sneak peaks from an upcoming ancient DNA paper confirming R1b and Steppe ancestry were introduced to Western Europe together. Papers to be published sometime this summer will bring an end to any debate about the origins of R1b L151.

What do you make of the absence of Western European R-GG400 in the phylogenetic analysis by Balanovsky et al. then? I think this makes Yamnaya a rather unlikely source of L51 and the later Western branches. One would expect to see at least some of the Yamnaya Y-DNA retained in West Europe vis-à-vis Neolithic-Mesolithic lineages despite founder effects in S116/U106, but it appears to be absent. Granted with the starlike pattern of M269 it's near impossible to be completely certain where the specific branches ultimately originated, but the general pattern doesn't really indicate a Russian origin.
 
What do you make of the absence of Western European R-GG400 in the phylogenetic analysis by Balanovsky et al. then? I think this makes Yamnaya a rather unlikely source of L51 and the later Western branches. One would expect to see at least some of the Yamnaya Y-DNA retained in West Europe vis-à-vis Neolithic-Mesolithic lineages despite founder effects in S116/U106, but it appears to be absent. Granted with the starlike pattern of M269 it's near impossible to be completely certain where the specific branches ultimately originated, but the general pattern doesn't really indicate a Russian origin.
Yamnaya was huge. Let's see what can be find in all its corners.
 
Granted with the starlike pattern of M269 it's near impossible to be completely certain where the specific branches ultimately originated, but the general pattern doesn't really indicate a Russian origin.

That's because often modern Y DNA can tell us very little about the origins of haplogroups. This summer we'll probably get ancient DNA from Western Erope confirming that R1b-L151 exapnded with people heavy in Steppe ancestry. We might even get a R1b-L151 or even R1b-P312 straight from a Steppe sample. I would not be surprised at all.
 
That's because often modern Y DNA can tell us very little about the origins of haplogroups. This summer we'll probably get ancient DNA from Western Erope confirming that R1b-L151 exapnded with people heavy in Steppe ancestry. We might even get a R1b-L151 or even R1b-P312 straight from a Steppe sample. I would not be surprised at all.

But in this case it can. Have you read the paper?

We already know that Bell Beaker had affinity to Corded Ware. However, its strongest affinity judging by the Rathlin samples appears to be to KO1.

Yamnaya was huge. Let's see what can be find in all its corners.

Perhaps so, but it's already by far the best studied archaeological culture in the corresponding timeframe, bar none. It would be slightly baffling if the main lineage stays put and survives in Mordvins, Kalmyks, Tatars, Ukrainians and so forth, while an elusive oddball goes on to make an epic conquest thousands of kilometers further west. Not impossible, but rather unlikely.
 
I'm going to start collecting posts which dispute R1b-L151's Steppe origin. Then, in maybe a few months, when ancient DNA proves its Steppe origin I'll show all the naysayers their posts.
 
R1b existed throughout Mesolithic Europe and probably Asia. R1b-L151 specifically, the type 50%+ of men in France and Iberia and the British Isles belong to, derives from Bronze age Steppe incursions. The R1b Mesolithic Europeans belonged to, besides R1b-L151 which is ultimatly from Mesolithic Europe, basically went extinct.

Some people here might argue R1b L151 is from Mesolithic Western Europeans but they're wrong. There's already sneak peaks from an upcoming ancient DNA paper confirming R1b and Steppe ancestry were introduced to Western Europe together. Papers to be published sometime this summer will bring an end to any debate about the origins of R1b L151.

Thank you!
 
But in this case it can. Have you read the paper?

We already know that Bell Beaker had affinity to Corded Ware. However, its strongest affinity judging by the Rathlin samples appears to be to KO1.


A steppe originating male line would be significantly admixed by the time it gets to Scotland, just like Rathlin. I don't think a "stronger affinity" to KO1 really says anything, if I even buy it. Rathlin clearly has steppe ancestry which is the only thing that really matters.


Perhaps so, but it's already by far the best studied archaeological culture in the corresponding timeframe, bar none. It would be slightly baffling if the main lineage stays put and survives in Mordvins, Kalmyks, Tatars, Ukrainians and so forth, while an elusive oddball goes on to make an epic conquest thousands of kilometers further west. Not impossible, but rather unlikely.


How is this unlikely? We have historical records of steppe cultures doing exactly this, repeatedly. These were the original horse Nomads, which is why they were such a vast culture and why their language is spoken from India to Ireland. How is L151 an "elusive oddball"? It's a descendant of lines we've found in ancient samples on the steppe. Just because we haven't found an ancient L151 or something closer doesn't make it a special mystery that undermines the notion of a steppe origin.
 
I'm going to start collecting posts which dispute R1b-L151's Steppe origin. Then, in maybe a few months, when ancient DNA proves its Steppe origin I'll show all the naysayers their posts.
It won't matter. We could unfreeze a frozen R1b-L151 Samara HG back to life and even if he was speaking Hittite some people would still deny steppe PIE or L151 origin.
 
deleted post
 

This thread has been viewed 56933 times.

Back
Top