More Neolithic Y-DNA and mtDNA from Hungary, Germany and Spain (Lipson et al. 2017)

Oh yes, and there are so many dumb people as me that don't believe very much that Earth is flat, in fact we might have some mental unpairment to recognise easily plain facts as you bros.

By the way neither you nor Firehaired have found out that in the last CWC and BB papers the archaeologists admit the lack of material proofs linking the steppe with such cultures?
 
I'm going to start collecting posts which dispute R1b-L151's Steppe origin. Then, in maybe a few months, when ancient DNA proves its Steppe origin I'll show all the naysayers their posts.

It's quite immaterial to me where R1b-L151 originated - I'm perfectly happy with an origin on the steppe.

However, Balanovsky et al. raise some good points which no one really addressed. Prophecies about future publications are boring.
 
It won't matter. We could unfreeze a frozen R1b-L151 Samara HG back to life and even if he was speaking Hittite some people would still deny steppe PIE or L151 origin.
ray-liotta-laughing-in-goodfellas-laugh-828190630.jpg
 
Such as? (genuinely curious)

The main lineage found in Yamnaya (R1b-GG400) appears to have a rather local distribution within Europe, being mostly confined to eastern groups like Tatars, Mordvins, Ukrainians. It's summarized in Fig. 4:

4.jpg


6NTJ1kY.png


For their method/discussion you'll have to delve into the paper yourself (they essentially compared equal representative samples of various Eastern and Western European populations).
 
MarkoZ, that is not problematic as Yamnayists have as a matter of faith that they will find R1b-L51 and R1a in the Pontic steppe. If there are not material proofs about an expansion from the steppes to Europe DNA proofs don't matter also. I like this way to do science, it's possible to do everything possible!
 
Oh yes, and there are so many dumb people as me that don't believe very much that Earth is flat, in fact we might have some mental unpairment to recognise easily plain facts as you bros.

By the way neither you nor Firehaired have found out that in the last CWC and BB papers the archaeologists admit the lack of material proofs linking the steppe with such cultures?
I didn't call anyone dumb. We are of course ignoring the fact that alot of Bell Beakers are just bell shaped corded ware.
 
MarkoZ, that is not problematic as Yamnayists have as a matter of faith that they will find R1b-L51 and R1a in the Pontic steppe. If there are not material proofs about an expansion from the steppes to Europe DNA proofs don't matter also. I like this way to do science, it's possible to do everything possible!

I think PIE was pre-yamnaya.

I don't believe "have as a matter of fact" is really fair. There is now inexhaustible data indicating a steppe/NE European origin of IE. No one who buys this is ignoring anything.

If you take all of the data: Archaeological, linguists, historical, and genetic, it's all supportive of this.

In my opinion, the only other alternative that has SOME chance is Caucuses, but you bump into alot of problems. Next would be Zagros, which is even less likely. Remember we have historical records begining in 3000BC very close to some of these proposed West Asian homelands. Where are the Indoeuropeans? They're no where to be found, until Hittite of course, which is plainly obvious as are Iranians when they come on the historical scene 500 years later.
 
I didn't call anyone dumb. We are of course ignoring the fact that alot of Bell Beakers are just bell shaped corded ware.
Your reasoning can fall easily in a trap: Bell Beaker people didn't married local CWC people? why BB has a lesser "steppe" component if they came from there?? Just simple questions.
 
I think PIE was pre-yamnaya.

I don't believe "have as a matter of fact" is really fair. There is now inexhaustible data indicating a steppe/NE European origin of IE. No one who buys this is ignoring anything.

If you take all of the data: Archaeological, linguists, historical, and genetic, it's all supportive of this.

In my opinion, the only other alternative that has SOME chance is Caucuses, but you bump into alot of problems. Next would be Zagros, which is even less likely. Remember we have historical records begining in 3000BC very close to some of these proposed West Asian homelands. Where are the Indoeuropeans? They're no where to be found, until Hittite of course, which is plainly obvious as are Iranians when they come on the historical scene 500 years later.
Obviously is a matter of faith, nor fact, to believe that R1a and L51 was in Ukraine.

But you are buying a car without motor: from archaeology there are not evidences, from linguistics there are a lot of animal and vegetal therms not found in the steppes, from the historical data you might quote which classic is pointing to the steppe, and from genetics all it is said, even by the labs, that CW came from a Yamnaya like pop. All this about the steppe is a big bluff that has survived so much as it was the theory that make some sense and by being feed by holy cows that can't see other things that fantastic green prairies. For the indoeuropean Urheimat I don't think it could be sought more south.
 
But you are buying a car without motor: from archaeology there are not evidences, from linguistics there are a lot of animal and vegetal therms not found in the steppes, from the historical data you might quote which classic is pointing to the steppe

Archaeology, lingustics, and history aren't as good at detecting ancient migrations as ancient DNA. If ancient DNA says one thing and archeaology says another, ancient DNA wins.
 
Well, now to deny the Indo-European and Eastern European origin of R1b-L151 does not make much sense anymore. But the issue of their localization is still open, in my opinion. At the same time, there are some facts:

1. There are no archaeological witnesses of the influence of Yamnaya on the bell beakers.
2. But there is an archaeological evidence of the influence of Corded Ware on Bell Beakers. Some archaeologists see cultural influence, and someone sees even a direct cultural-genetic relationship between them.
3. These genetic maps from Balanovsky generally support this version.
b9650431aa7f.jpg


132d273b0511.jpg

CW have relationship with all Europeans, while the eastern yamnaya is quite far.

Perhaps some Western European R1b were also in some CW branches? Although this does not exclude finding them in the western Yamnaya. For now it makes sense, but it's better to wait for the test results.

But to talk about the entire Yamaya as ancestral for IE and the Europen people in particular is impossible.
Berun
once led a good counterargument, note of the pigmentation gene. At least the eastern part of Yamnaya is physically impossible to be ancestral for a fair modern european population, unlike Corded Ware.
 
@Firehaired, I would expect that the three sisters would go together, if none is going to the place then the theory is wrong; for DNA you have R1b in Yamna, R1a in Corded Ware, do you think you win with that? now a touchdown in your own end zone scores for you?

Why the way I have some funny animated gifs ready.
 
@ Dov, these maps are taking actual populations right? if they would test also actual Americans they would be also included in such CWC area right? CWC-related people was in America? no? yes? If the answer is no you can reconsider the answer for when arrived such CWC-like in each European region, taking into account Germanics, Celts, and a lot of people moving on.

2. But there is an archaeological evidence of the influence of Corded Ware on Bell Beakers. Some archaeologists see cultural influence, and someone sees even a direct cultural-genetic relationship between them.

Can you give the details? when going to the details is when we can distinguish good investigation from refined crackpottery.
 
@ Dov, these maps are taking actual populations right?
Yes, as I understand it.
Can you give the details? when going to the details is when we can distinguish good investigation from refined crackpottery.
http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=24226
It seems, it was in this discussion, whose members, including archaeologists. You can try Google translate. Maybe later I will find it more specific.
By the way, there noticed that the inclusion cattle breeding, agriculture, military affairs and transport in the PIE language was unjustified. The original vocabulary was reduced to wild animals and plants, to hunting and gathering and their tools.
 
Srendny Stog will be the link we need.

Archaeology shows undoubtable mixing with the balkans, so I expect to see the first steppe/EEF mixing here. Sredny Stog is also where we find the first proto-corded ware type of pottery. It all makes sense. This is a great candidate for CW origins. We already see an R1a in Dneiper Donets right below Sredny Stog.

I see this as the most likely origin of Western European R1b lines as well for much the same reasoning.

If all of this turns out to be true, then we would also be compelled to back date the PIE time period to just before Yamnaya, which also makes sense because this is right when we see undoubtable influx of farming material culture.
 
for DNA you have R1b in Yamna, R1a in Corded Ware, do you think you win with that? now a touchdown in your own end zone scores for you?

No, there's a lot more evidence(essentially proof) than that. But I won't waste my time presenting it because you'll ignore it like you have for the last 2 years.

Why the way I have some funny animated gifs ready.

You won't be able to use them. The Steppe genetic-R1a/b thing was proven years ago. It's still a "debate" because some people, who for whatever reasons don't like it, refuse to accept it.
 
Well, now to deny the Indo-European and Eastern European origin of R1b-L151 does not make much sense anymore. .....

1. There are no archaeological witnesses of the influence of Yamnaya on the bell beakers.
2. But there is an archaeological evidence of the influence of Corded Ware on Bell Beakers. Some archaeologists see cultural influence, and someone sees even a direct cultural-genetic relationship between them.

If Bell Beaker received Steppe ancestry from Corded Ware(100% R1a) who did they receive R1b L23 from? Over 100 Y DNA samples from Neolithic Western and Central Europe have been sequenced. Not a single sample has R1b L23. But some 90% of Yamnaya indviduals do. Plus there's documentation of R1b in Mesolithic Russia.

Because of how culture can change, especially when it mixes with other peoples, a lack of cultural similarities between Yamnaya and Bell Beaker isn't good evidence Bell Beaker didn't partially decended from an R1b L23 Yamnaya group.

When populations migrate and mix with other populations their culture changes. German Bell Beaker was genetically as much Steppe as it was Neolithic European. Maybe their Steppe ancestry is from Yamnaya-like groups who lost their Steppe culture or even Western Yamnaya.

3. These genetic maps from Balanovsky generally support this version.
...(Maps)...

Those are Y DNA maps. Eastern Yamnaya was a relative of Bell Beaker not an ancestor, which is Yamnaya carried differnt Y DNA. Yamnaya's R1b is a brother to Bell Beaker's R1b not an ancestor.
CW have relationship with all Europeans, while the eastern yamnaya is quite far.

CW had R1a, which is only popular in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia(Corded Ware territory).

But to talk about the entire Yamaya as ancestral for IE and the Europen people in particular is impossible.

I, and I think most people who believe Bell Beaker R1b is from the Steppe, don't think necessarily Yamnaya contributed ancestry to Europeans. We think close relatives of Yamnaya or Yamnaya did.
Berun once led a good counterargument, note of the pigmentation gene. At least the eastern part of Yamnaya is physically impossible to be ancestral for a fair modern european population, unlike Corded Ware.

Natural selection can change pigmentation. Therefore, pigmentation isn't good evidence. A pigmentation change is documented in Baltic countries. Baltic Corded Ware was relatively dark, but their descendants 2,000 years later were as pale as modern Balts.
 
Archaeology, lingustics, and history aren't as good at detecting ancient migrations as ancient DNA. If ancient DNA says one thing and archeaology says another, ancient DNA wins.
But remember that in many cases on here we're talking about a language in the first place, so there must be sanity checks with any one kind of evidence.
 
@Dov, I saw the map about such kurgans in Central Europe, but not knowing dates neither typology I just take it with caution (if dou you wish I can display you "kurgans" older than Yamnaya in West Europe); moreover when in the last CWC paper the authors need to travel back to the Globular amphora to justify a material relation with the steppes... not explaining if such relation was mutual, southern, or northerner.

@holderlin, Yamnyans were "free" of EEF DNA, so they couldn't trace their origin to Sredny Stog if that would be the case; moreover archeology can't find again expansion from there...

But I won't waste my time presenting it because you'll ignore it like you have for the last 2 years.

ha, it's you that don't take proofs, being such proofs lack of R1a in Yamnya or when you stick that U5a came from the steppes after showing U5a in Chalco Iberia.

Because of how culture can change, especially when it mixes with other peoples, a lack of cultural similarities between Yamnaya and Bell Beaker isn't good evidence Bell Beaker didn't partially decended from an R1b L23 Yamnaya group.

When populations migrate and mix with other populations their culture changes. German Bell Beaker was genetically as much Steppe as it was Neolithic European. Maybe their Steppe ancestry is from Yamnaya-like groups who lost their Steppe culture or even Western Yamnaya.

just a piece that can be used to demonstrate whichever supposition, but in science it's not a valid methodology, but it's good to create the history that fits better your wishes.
 

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