More Neolithic Y-DNA and mtDNA from Hungary, Germany and Spain (Lipson et al. 2017)

[Fire Haired14]

But you are buying a car without motor: from archaeology there are not evidences, from linguistics there are a lot of animal and vegetal therms not found in the steppes, from the historical data you might quote which classic is pointing to the steppe

Archaeology, lingustics, and history aren't as good at detecting ancient migrations as ancient DNA. If ancient DNA says one thing and archeaology says another, ancient DNA wins.

[Dov]

Well, now to deny the Indo-European and Eastern European origin of R1b-L151 does not make much sense anymore. But the issue of their localization is still open, in my opinion. At the same time, there are some facts:

1. There are no archaeological witnesses of the influence of Yamnaya on the bell beakers.
2. But there is an archaeological evidence of the influence of Corded Ware on Bell Beakers. Some archaeologists see cultural influence, and someone sees even a direct cultural-genetic relationship between them.
3. These genetic maps from Balanovsky generally support this version.



CW have relationship with all Europeans, while the eastern yamnaya is quite far.

Perhaps some Western European R1b were also in some CW branches? Although this does not exclude finding them in the western Yamnaya. For now it makes sense, but it's better to wait for the test results.

But to talk about the entire Yamaya as ancestral for IE and the Europen people in particular is impossible.
Berun once led a good counterargument, note of the pigmentation gene. At least the eastern part of Yamnaya is physically impossible to be ancestral for a fair modern european population, unlike Corded Ware.

[berun]

@Firehaired, I would expect that the three sisters would go together, if none is going to the place then the theory is wrong; for DNA you have R1b in Yamna, R1a in Corded Ware, do you think you win with that? now a touchdown in your own end zone scores for you?

Why the way I have some funny animated gifs ready.

[berun]

@ Dov, these maps are taking actual populations right? if they would test also actual Americans they would be also included in such CWC area right? CWC-related people was in America? no? yes? If the answer is no you can reconsider the answer for when arrived such CWC-like in each European region, taking into account Germanics, Celts, and a lot of people moving on.

2. But there is an archaeological evidence of the influence of Corded Ware on Bell Beakers. Some archaeologists see cultural influence, and someone sees even a direct cultural-genetic relationship between them.

Can you give the details? when going to the details is when we can distinguish good investigation from refined crackpottery.

[Dov]

@ Dov, these maps are taking actual populations right?

Yes, as I understand it.

Can you give the details? when going to the details is when we can distinguish good investigation from refined crackpottery.

http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=24226
It seems, it was in this discussion, whose members, including archaeologists. You can try Google translate. Maybe later I will find it more specific.
By the way, there noticed that the inclusion cattle breeding, agriculture, military affairs and transport in the PIE language was unjustified. The original vocabulary was reduced to wild animals and plants, to hunting and gathering and their tools.

[holderlin]

Srendny Stog will be the link we need.

Archaeology shows undoubtable mixing with the balkans, so I expect to see the first steppe/EEF mixing here. Sredny Stog is also where we find the first proto-corded ware type of pottery. It all makes sense. This is a great candidate for CW origins. We already see an R1a in Dneiper Donets right below Sredny Stog.

I see this as the most likely origin of Western European R1b lines as well for much the same reasoning.

If all of this turns out to be true, then we would also be compelled to back date the PIE time period to just before Yamnaya, which also makes sense because this is right when we see undoubtable influx of farming material culture.

[Fire Haired14]

for DNA you have R1b in Yamna, R1a in Corded Ware, do you think you win with that? now a touchdown in your own end zone scores for you?

No, there's a lot more evidence(essentially proof) than that. But I won't waste my time presenting it because you'll ignore it like you have for the last 2 years.

Why the way I have some funny animated gifs ready.

You won't be able to use them. The Steppe genetic-R1a/b thing was proven years ago. It's still a "debate" because some people, who for whatever reasons don't like it, refuse to accept it.

[Fire Haired14]

Well, now to deny the Indo-European and Eastern European origin of R1b-L151 does not make much sense anymore. .....

1. There are no archaeological witnesses of the influence of Yamnaya on the bell beakers.
2. But there is an archaeological evidence of the influence of Corded Ware on Bell Beakers. Some archaeologists see cultural influence, and someone sees even a direct cultural-genetic relationship between them.

If Bell Beaker received Steppe ancestry from Corded Ware(100% R1a) who did they receive R1b L23 from? Over 100 Y DNA samples from Neolithic Western and Central Europe have been sequenced. Not a single sample has R1b L23. But some 90% of Yamnaya indviduals do. Plus there's documentation of R1b in Mesolithic Russia.

Because of how culture can change, especially when it mixes with other peoples, a lack of cultural similarities between Yamnaya and Bell Beaker isn't good evidence Bell Beaker didn't partially decended from an R1b L23 Yamnaya group.

When populations migrate and mix with other populations their culture changes. German Bell Beaker was genetically as much Steppe as it was Neolithic European. Maybe their Steppe ancestry is from Yamnaya-like groups who lost their Steppe culture or even Western Yamnaya.

3. These genetic maps from Balanovsky generally support this version.
...(Maps)...

Those are Y DNA maps. Eastern Yamnaya was a relative of Bell Beaker not an ancestor, which is Yamnaya carried differnt Y DNA. Yamnaya's R1b is a brother to Bell Beaker's R1b not an ancestor.

CW have relationship with all Europeans, while the eastern yamnaya is quite far.

CW had R1a, which is only popular in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia(Corded Ware territory).

But to talk about the entire Yamaya as ancestral for IE and the Europen people in particular is impossible.

I, and I think most people who believe Bell Beaker R1b is from the Steppe, don't think necessarily Yamnaya contributed ancestry to Europeans. We think close relatives of Yamnaya or Yamnaya did.

Berun once led a good counterargument, note of the pigmentation gene. At least the eastern part of Yamnaya is physically impossible to be ancestral for a fair modern european population, unlike Corded Ware.

Natural selection can change pigmentation. Therefore, pigmentation isn't good evidence. A pigmentation change is documented in Baltic countries. Baltic Corded Ware was relatively dark, but their descendants 2,000 years later were as pale as modern Balts.

[holderlin]

Archaeology, lingustics, and history aren't as good at detecting ancient migrations as ancient DNA. If ancient DNA says one thing and archeaology says another, ancient DNA wins.

But remember that in many cases on here we're talking about a language in the first place, so there must be sanity checks with any one kind of evidence.

[berun]

@Dov, I saw the map about such kurgans in Central Europe, but not knowing dates neither typology I just take it with caution (if dou you wish I can display you "kurgans" older than Yamnaya in West Europe); moreover when in the last CWC paper the authors need to travel back to the Globular amphora to justify a material relation with the steppes... not explaining if such relation was mutual, southern, or northerner.

@holderlin, Yamnyans were "free" of EEF DNA, so they couldn't trace their origin to Sredny Stog if that would be the case; moreover archeology can't find again expansion from there...

But I won't waste my time presenting it because you'll ignore it like you have for the last 2 years.

ha, it's you that don't take proofs, being such proofs lack of R1a in Yamnya or when you stick that U5a came from the steppes after showing U5a in Chalco Iberia.

Because of how culture can change, especially when it mixes with other peoples, a lack of cultural similarities between Yamnaya and Bell Beaker isn't good evidence Bell Beaker didn't partially decended from an R1b L23 Yamnaya group.

When populations migrate and mix with other populations their culture changes. German Bell Beaker was genetically as much Steppe as it was Neolithic European. Maybe their Steppe ancestry is from Yamnaya-like groups who lost their Steppe culture or even Western Yamnaya.

just a piece that can be used to demonstrate whichever supposition, but in science it's not a valid methodology, but it's good to create the history that fits better your wishes.

[Dov]

Those are Y DNA maps. Eastern Yamnaya was a relative of Bell Beaker not an ancestor, which is Yamnaya carried differnt Y DNA. Yamnaya's R1b is a brother to Bell Beaker's R1b not an ancestor.

This is the genetic distance from the gene pool of the population of culture. Nothing written about the Y-Dna

CW had R1a, which is only popular in Eastern Europe and
.Scandinavia(Corded Ware territory).

I mean, that genetically modern Western Europeans are more like corded ware, and not to the eastern yamnaya, according by Balanovsky map. Although, culturally also. In the late BB there is a corded ornament, burial is dead body on its side.

I, and I think most people who believe Bell Beaker R1b is from the Steppe, don't think necessarily Yamnaya contributed ancestry to Europeans. We think close relatives of Yamnaya or Yamnaya did.

I do not argue with this and do not rule it out.

Natural selection can change pigmentation. Therefore, pigmentation isn't good evidence. A pigmentation change is documented in Baltic countries. Baltic Corded Ware was relatively dark, but their descendants 2,000 years later were as pale as modern Balts.

This is the result of sexual selection, according to anthropologist Peter Frost. This is a unique event that occurred in a short time in the late Paleolithic among mammoth hunters. With a shortage of men, lighter women, which more sexually attractive and preferred, and therefore give more offspring.
http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S10...059-0/abstract

Hence the variety of colors among descendants of these populations. There are no other such cases. Therefore, there is no reason to think that a dark pigmentaion of the Yamnaya will suddenly turn out fair.

[Dov]

berun
Returning to yesterday's issue I wanted to clarify. The black circles on the map are the tested populations. So the color of the map is largely extrapolation. It is necessary to look only at the tested populations.

Also about CW and BB:
Central European BBs are ultimately all influenced by corded, so they have a corded pattern and other attributes, like burial of the body on its side.

Srendny Stog will be the link we need.

Archaeology shows undoubtable mixing with the balkans, so I expect to see the first steppe/EEF mixing here. Sredny Stog is also where we find the first proto-corded ware type of pottery. It all makes sense. This is a great candidate for CW origins. We already see an R1a in Dneiper Donets right below Sredny Stog.

I see this as the most likely origin of Western European R1b lines as well for much the same reasoning.

If all of this turns out to be true, then we would also be compelled to back date the PIE time period to just before Yamnaya, which also makes sense because this is right when we see undoubtable influx of farming material culture.

Yes, it sounds interesting. Would be nice learn their DNA.

[Dov]

I'll try to structure some thoughts at the moment:

1. 10 KYA, the surviving people from the final Upper Paleolthic sites follower to glacier up to the Ancilus (Baltic) Sea and the Upper Volga.



2. Mesolithic burials and cultures are known along the lines of Veret'e, Oleni Ostrov, Zveyneyki, Butovo and later Elshanka. Probably this can be taken as the reference point of proto-proto-IE. This is consistent with the common northern vocabulary of the flora and fauna of the primordial PIE vocabulary.

3. Indo-Europeans from Khvalynsk were the first to tame a horse,and spreading this innovation to all neighboring Indo-European cultures. They themselves were probably the ancestors of the eastern yamnaya, and therefore no modern Indo-European people, who comes from them. Probably it is an extinct branch, and also dissolved in other nations.

4. Almost all modern Indo-European populations, including Indo-Iranians, come from more Western cultures. Such as the Middle-Dniepr and others.

[MOESAN]

With that about kurgans it's a very tricky matter. To do a mound is a quite usual solution to reuse the earth of a burial, per example in some Mississipi cultures, and I doubt they have any relation with Yamnayans. Other case is megalithism itself, many dolmens were in fact buried in earth so their shape was identical of that of a kurgan. Sometimes I go to think if many kurgans are a would-be dolmen in a region with lack of big rocks.

Agree - eastern tumuli could be seen as kind of Dolmens without big stone - that said, it doesn't put our question to go forwards;.at the social level, they are at the opposite, nevertheless; collective re-used burials against individual one-use burials -

[berun]

@ Dov, the burial of a body in its side... it's what it's necessary when your interment hole is little. You can find this "solution" all over the world.

@ MOESAN, there are megalithic cultures burying only an individual, sometimes two (the spouse).

[MarkoZ]

If Bell Beaker received Steppe ancestry from Corded Ware(100% R1a) who did they receive R1b L23 from? Over 100 Y DNA samples from Neolithic Western and Central Europe have been sequenced. Not a single sample has R1b L23. But some 90% of Yamnaya indviduals do. Plus there's documentation of R1b in Mesolithic Russia.

The sampling of western & central Europe has until now been confined to very specific regions, unfortunately. Now that R1 dominated cultures (66% R1 in Blätterhöhle!) are turning up where some of us long thought they'd turn up, I think these at least deserve further testing. Of course, West Germany as such cannot be the source, which should be sought in the as yet completely unsampled late French Mesolithic, perhaps ultimately via the Spanish Azillian.

If R-L151 is in Western Yamnaya and those West Germans are on extinct lines that's alright. Until then Balanovsky's reservations should be taken into consideration, IMHO. This wouldn't be controversial at all if the whole thing wasn't relevant to that odious Indo-European question.

RE Kurgans: I think the defining characteristic should be that the Kurgan is a single male burial, as opposed to the collective burial mounds of Europe which were also often round in shape. As such I think it's safe to say that the first Kurgans appear in Azerbaijan without obvious connections to earlier cultures.

[MarkoZ]

A steppe originating male line would be significantly admixed by the time it gets to Scotland, just like Rathlin. I don't think a "stronger affinity" to KO1 really says anything, if I even buy it. Rathlin clearly has steppe ancestry which is the only thing that really matters.

You don't have to buy it, just look up Cassidy et al.:



The affinity to KO1 is stronger even than the affinity the Rathlin individuals have to each other. Of course this doesn't tell us where their Y-DNA is from.

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.abstract

[holderlin]

@Dov, I saw the map about such kurgans in Central Europe, but not knowing dates neither typology I just take it with caution (if dou you wish I can display you "kurgans" older than Yamnaya in West Europe); moreover when in the last CWC paper the authors need to travel back to the Globular amphora to justify a material relation with the steppes... not explaining if such relation was mutual, southern, or northerner.

@holderlin, Yamnyans were "free" of EEF DNA, so they couldn't trace their origin to Sredny Stog if that would be the case; moreover archeology can't find again expansion from there...



ha, it's you that don't take proofs, being such proofs lack of R1a in Yamnya or when you stick that U5a came from the steppes after showing U5a in Chalco Iberia.



just a piece that can be used to demonstrate whichever supposition, but in science it's not a valid methodology, but it's good to create the history that fits better your wishes.

Bro, I'm saying that PIE was Eneolithic steppe/Forest Zone which probably extended into what we would call Europe, a thousand years before Yamnaya proper. Look at the sharing of male lines from Vistual to Urals from the Mesolithic to the Bronze age. I'm not a Yamnayist. I believe that Yamnaya was Indic/Indo-Iranian sounding already. You're absolutely right when you say that there is little evidence to exclude Europe from the PIEs possible homelands. I'm with you in so far as we don't include Western Europe, which would be highly unlikely.

[holderlin]

I'll try to structure some thoughts at the moment:

1. 10 KYA, the surviving people from the final Upper Paleolthic sites follower to glacier up to the Ancilus (Baltic) Sea and the Upper Volga.



2. Mesolithic burials and cultures are known along the lines of Veret'e, Oleni Ostrov, Zveyneyki, Butovo and later Elshanka. Probably this can be taken as the reference point of proto-proto-IE. This is consistent with the common northern vocabulary of the flora and fauna of the primordial PIE vocabulary.

3. Indo-Europeans from Khvalynsk were the first to tame a horse,and spreading this innovation to all neighboring Indo-European cultures. They themselves were probably the ancestors of the eastern yamnaya, and therefore no modern Indo-European people, who comes from them. Probably it is an extinct branch, and also dissolved in other nations.

4. Almost all modern Indo-European populations, including Indo-Iranians, come from more Western cultures. Such as the Middle-Dniepr and others.

I agree with most of this. I don't know when exactly a language would be recognized as pPIE, but there has to be some mesolithic root of IE, unless it was a lingua franca between Caucasian and something else.

I do think Samara were the first horse riders. Sredny Stog/Novodanilovka/kemi Oba and KKhvalynsk were all likely horse riders, but these cultures seem to be radiating out of the Samara Valley/Volga. Dneiper Donets is very similar to Samara (essentially identical in most ways), as is Sredny Stog to Khvalynsk, and there was a smooth transition to Sredny Stog from Dneiper Donets, so you don't really need an external origin for Sredny Stog, but it seems to coexist alongside Dneiper Donets for sometime before they were finally enveloped. So it's fair to assume that the Samara region is the epicenter of this cultural advancement.

But, given the clear evidence of interrelations since the mesolithic you might imagine an early version of PIE being spoken across the entire region since a long time ago.

This is why IE languages in Europe are so hard to trace. It's because they were very close to being there all along.

[holderlin]

You don't have to buy it, just look up Cassidy et al.:



The affinity to KO1 is stronger even than the affinity the Rathlin individuals have to each other. Of course this doesn't tell us where their Y-DNA is from.

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.abstract

Thanks for the link. I don't know what science you're talking about but where I'm from there's always a narrative to go along.

I'm accepting of this comparison, but I don't think is really matters. As I posted above, I'm not a Yamnayist. I think PIE may have essentially been in Europe as much as it was on the steppe.

[Dov]

@ Dov, the burial of a body in its side... it's what it's necessary when your interment hole is little. You can find this "solution" all over the world.

Yes, there are similarities like this, but here it is cultural borrowing and ritual-sacral context. Just as the CW before this borrowed this method of burial from the Balkan farmers, once.

CW


BB


Yamnaya

[Dov]

I agree with most of this. I don't know when exactly a language would be recognized as pPIE, but there has to be some mesolithic root of IE, unless it was a lingua franca between Caucasian and something else.

I do think Samara were the first horse riders. Sredny Stog/Novodanilovka/kemi Oba and KKhvalynsk were all likely horse riders, but these cultures seem to be radiating out of the Samara Valley/Volga. Dneiper Donets is very similar to Samara (essentially identical in most ways), as is Sredny Stog to Khvalynsk, and there was a smooth transition to Sredny Stog from Dneiper Donets, so you don't really need an external origin for Sredny Stog, but it seems to coexist alongside Dneiper Donets for sometime before they were finally enveloped. So it's fair to assume that the Samara region is the epicenter of this cultural advancement.

But, given the clear evidence of interrelations since the mesolithic you might imagine an early version of PIE being spoken across the entire region since a long time ago.

This is why IE languages in Europe are so hard to trace. It's because they were very close to being there all along.

Well, in general, there is no evidence of using a horse as a transport before Sintashta. Before that, Indo-Europeans used castrated bulls harnessed to the wagon. Probably originally horse was the food and may be pack animal. It is unlikely that they ride on horses, there is no evidence.

About Mesolithic.
It was very little studied in archeology previously time. Now the situation is changing.
In the Mesolithic Veret'e-Popovo there is already a burial of a child of 7-9 years with two dogs. Such burials with two dogs then found in the Corded Ware. Probably this is the birth of the Indo-European funeral cult and the myth about two dogs (now called "Hellhound") - guides and friends in the afterlife. Later transformed into:
-Two-headed Cerberus in Greek mythology (this variant oldest and more visually represented)
-Two dogs of Indian God of the dead Yama - Sarvara and Udumbala.
-Two dogs in the Avesta, guarding the Chinwad Bridge in the world of the dead.
-etc.
Also noteworthy is the funeral of Patroclus in the Iliad. Achiless killed two dogs, and threw them into the funeral pyre to Patroclus.

It is astoundingly, that the roots of this apparently from North Mesolithic.

[LeBrok]

Well, in general, there is no evidence of using a horse as a transport before Sintashta. Before that, Indo-Europeans used castrated bulls harnessed to the wagon. Probably originally horse was the food and may be pack animal. It is unlikely that they ride on horses, there is no evidence.

About Mesolithic.
It was very little studied in archeology previously time. Now the situation is changing.
In the Mesolithic Veret'e-Popovo there is already a burial of a child of 7-9 years with two dogs. Such burials with two dogs then found in the Corded Ware. Probably this is the birth of the Indo-European funeral cult and the myth about two dogs (now called "Hellhound") - guides and friends in the afterlife. Later transformed into:
-Two-headed Cerberus in Greek mythology (this variant oldest and more visually represented)
-Two dogs of Indian God of the dead Yama - Sarvara and Udumbala.
-Two dogs in the Avesta, guarding the Chinwad Bridge in the world of the dead.
-etc.
Also noteworthy is the funeral of Patroclus in the Iliad. Achiless killed two dogs, and threw them into the funeral pyre to Potrokl.

It is astoundingly, that the roots of this apparently from North Mesolithic.

D. Antony claims that he discovered a wear on horse teeth from wearing a bit, in Botai culture of 4th Millennium BC. Steppe horses were small and easy to mount and ride. I'm sure that once they were domesticated they were ridden too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai_culture

[Dov]

D. Antony claims that he discovered a wear on horse teeth from wearing a bit, in Botai culture of 4th Millennium BC. Steppe horses were small and easy to mount and ride. I'm sure that once they were domesticated they were ridden too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai_culture

Yes I know. But apparently this is an erroneous interpretation of Anthony. In the Russian archeological science disagree with him, including Kuznetsov, who worked in the team of Anthony. Probably it's just a chipped tooth, and not a deformation from the bits. It looks different.

[LeBrok]

Yes I know. But apparently this is an erroneous interpretation of Anthony. In the Russian archeological science disagree with him, including Kuznetsov, who worked in the team of Anthony. Probably it's just a chipped tooth, and not a deformation from the bits. It looks different.

Put yourself in situation of horse herder. You are around horses all they to keep an eye on them, right. You are a young boy. Wouldn't you have an idea to sit on one just for fun? They were not big intimidating horses. They were small tarpan type horse, almost like ponies. Now multiply this by thousands of such boys through few generations. It would be a miracle if few of them didn't start riding them.
Heck, to domesticate horses, one need to be able to move with them to find fresh grass every day. How would you keep up with horses if you don't ride one? How could you find your herd on foot? Probably, they needed to rid horses first to domesticate them or both at same time.
It is very hard to find a proof of first horse riding, because they rode them without any specialized equipment, like Prairie Indians long time ago. Jump on them and hold on to horse mane. It took a long time to invent and improve horse riding with specialized horseware. This is very conceivable that they rode horses for at least one thousand years before we could find such equipment to prove horse riding.

Listen to D. Anthony:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post429179