members of theapricity have been arrested before? it is such a slippery slope just being curious about genetics, for me personally i love that this kind of study has the potential to open my world up to study of other cultures and histories, but it's definitely a slippery slope and like angela i've ended up on some suspect eugenics-y sounding subreddits or stormfront as well. as soon as i realized what i was on i immediately got paranoid about being put on a watch list, sucks that those kinds of people are out there.
Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus
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Kingslav
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This Albanian sample has 22% East Europe, with Ancestry.com. More evidence against your propaganda charts have Slavic admixture >5%. This is more Slavic admixture than even Greeks, which geographically already make sense. Did you see her tears of joy when she saw Slavic admixture.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7SGRnqJZA
Seanp
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As long as you don't try to suggest a genocide against some ethnic group or openly support terrorist organizations you're not being watched but any comment can be tracked down and I assume some programs can monitor online activity in a way they use keywords and if you fit in the "terrorist" description you can make it on the official watch list.
Kingslav
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Simple solution to this, dont be a racist.
Seanp
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As long as you don't have a field in molecular biology and genome analyzing. I would advise you to take a step back and stay silent instead say something irrational like "total crap and especially this or that" I'd expect more patience from a regular member let alone a moderator.
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Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790-1861).
Focusing on the Albanians, this is how Fallmerayer described the Morea in the 19th century:
i) If the many colonies of Albanian immigrants had already exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek, as their predecessors, the Slavs, had done, and as could have happened over the centuries, the opponents of my theory of Albanian migration covering all of new Greece would have had an easier time of it refusing to believe me, because the new arrivals, comrades in religion and governance of the Greek-speakers, did not have the same destructive influence on place names, as did the Slavs. Phrantzes asserts: “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.” In the works of Chalkokondylas, Spandugino and Phrantzes, or similarly concerning the Slavic occupation of the Peloponnese in Evagrius, Constantine Porphyrogenetus, the Scholiast of Strabo and Patriarch Nicholas, the above-mentioned scholars would only come up with the same old explanations, i.e. that “these are merely assertions of a general nature that must be treated with caution when applied; they are assertions that reflect more a lack of knowledge or imprecision on the part of the writer than truth and exactitude.” Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day. However, if we take a look solely at the Peloponnese, no one would accept that the martial advance of the Albanians through the peninsula at the time of Cantacuzene simply came to a stop and consisted merely of a few small units of men or a few mercenaries who left their families at home. Once curious piece of information is preserved in the funeral oration of Theodor Palaeologus, the successor of Cantacuzene in Mistra (1380-1407), that shows just how continuously and massively the Albanians flooded across the isthmus: “Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”
If one considers that all the families of Albanians who arrived in the Morea during the rule of Manuel Cantacuzene and Theodor Palaeologus, in the province of Mistra. i.e. in the Eurotas valley, had to be accommodated in southeastern Arcadia, Tsakonia and the towards Argolis, it is easy to see that the districts inhabited by Slavs and, on the east side, apparently by some remnants of the ancient Greeks, were largely empty. And if one considers that before and during these events there was a time when there were less than 150,000 people in the whole of the Peloponnese, one can easily comprehend how limited the knowledge of the philosopher Plethon in the fifteenth century was, who refused to accept any substantial alteration in the population of the Peloponnese. The same is can be said of his successors in the present day, at least in this part of the world.
ii) Nerio had empty villages, fallow fields, many enemies and no soldiers. The Albanians were on the lookout for land, war and booty.
iii) Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes. At the present time, Athens, the capital of the new kingdom, is more Albanian than it was during the uprising because, after the expulsion of the much-hated and feared Ottomans, the Albanian population abandoned the countryside in great numbers and settled in the city.
Focusing on the Albanians, this is how Fallmerayer described the Morea in the 19th century:
i) If the many colonies of Albanian immigrants had already exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek, as their predecessors, the Slavs, had done, and as could have happened over the centuries, the opponents of my theory of Albanian migration covering all of new Greece would have had an easier time of it refusing to believe me, because the new arrivals, comrades in religion and governance of the Greek-speakers, did not have the same destructive influence on place names, as did the Slavs. Phrantzes asserts: “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.” In the works of Chalkokondylas, Spandugino and Phrantzes, or similarly concerning the Slavic occupation of the Peloponnese in Evagrius, Constantine Porphyrogenetus, the Scholiast of Strabo and Patriarch Nicholas, the above-mentioned scholars would only come up with the same old explanations, i.e. that “these are merely assertions of a general nature that must be treated with caution when applied; they are assertions that reflect more a lack of knowledge or imprecision on the part of the writer than truth and exactitude.” Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day. However, if we take a look solely at the Peloponnese, no one would accept that the martial advance of the Albanians through the peninsula at the time of Cantacuzene simply came to a stop and consisted merely of a few small units of men or a few mercenaries who left their families at home. Once curious piece of information is preserved in the funeral oration of Theodor Palaeologus, the successor of Cantacuzene in Mistra (1380-1407), that shows just how continuously and massively the Albanians flooded across the isthmus: “Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”
If one considers that all the families of Albanians who arrived in the Morea during the rule of Manuel Cantacuzene and Theodor Palaeologus, in the province of Mistra. i.e. in the Eurotas valley, had to be accommodated in southeastern Arcadia, Tsakonia and the towards Argolis, it is easy to see that the districts inhabited by Slavs and, on the east side, apparently by some remnants of the ancient Greeks, were largely empty. And if one considers that before and during these events there was a time when there were less than 150,000 people in the whole of the Peloponnese, one can easily comprehend how limited the knowledge of the philosopher Plethon in the fifteenth century was, who refused to accept any substantial alteration in the population of the Peloponnese. The same is can be said of his successors in the present day, at least in this part of the world.
ii) Nerio had empty villages, fallow fields, many enemies and no soldiers. The Albanians were on the lookout for land, war and booty.
iii) Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes. At the present time, Athens, the capital of the new kingdom, is more Albanian than it was during the uprising because, after the expulsion of the much-hated and feared Ottomans, the Albanian population abandoned the countryside in great numbers and settled in the city.
Yetos
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and again Fallmerayer,
the same person that Slavs had in theri agenda,
Now have it the Albanians,
I still wonder, genetics mean nothing?
History means nothing (only 10k Arbanites at Venician castles at 1460, Theba is excluded)
and also 1821 means nothing,
as also the 1300-1350 AD when Kossovo was still habited by Greeks (Metochites)
the same person that Slavs had in theri agenda,
Now have it the Albanians,
I still wonder, genetics mean nothing?
History means nothing (only 10k Arbanites at Venician castles at 1460, Theba is excluded)
and also 1821 means nothing,
as also the 1300-1350 AD when Kossovo was still habited by Greeks (Metochites)
Angela
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Do not de-rail this thread again with a-scientific, ridiculous, disproved nonsense from some 19th century German "romantic historian" like this. This is a GENETICS thread. Population genetics is about testing the hypotheses of the past. Unfortunately for you, your favorite "stories" are being nailed right, left, and center.
If you know nothing about genetics and can't disprove the results, don't comment.
I wonder what discredited, already banned member we're dealing with?
No matter; history will repeat itself.
Angela
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A theory which has been disproved by genetics should not be convincing to any rational person.
What bothers me is ******** other nationalities based on out-moded, a-scientific nonsense. If that isn't what you were doing, great.
What bothers me is ******** other nationalities based on out-moded, a-scientific nonsense. If that isn't what you were doing, great.
Angela - I don't have an other account here or on my whole IP/computer.
- An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290,000 and could provide 30,000 fighters.(the number is too high, but if Arbanites were JUST several thousands he surely wouldn't make such a big mistake)
-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.
- Detailed information about all the villages of NW (North West present territory of Achaia and ) Peloponnese can be found in Annex "A" (click here). Column (c) is marked with the letter E in Greek and the letter A with the Albanian villages. (For example, the percentage of settlements with an Arvanite name is 74.5%. According to the above register, the Greeks of the region were less than Albanians: 1,742 Greek families and 1,836 Albanians are counted. More information can be found in the book by Vasilis Panagiotopoulos: "Population and settlements of the Peloponnese, 13th-18th century" (Historical Archive, Emporiki Bank of Greece, Athens, 1987), from which the above aggregate tables .
(The number of families in Greek villages were bigger on average, this is why Greek villages from 25% turned into 49% families, so those ''Rum'' - Romaioi villages were more sophisticated, we do not know what actual language was spoken on those Orthodox Villages besides Greek)
http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=372
P.S The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."
- An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290,000 and could provide 30,000 fighters.(the number is too high, but if Arbanites were JUST several thousands he surely wouldn't make such a big mistake)
-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.
- Detailed information about all the villages of NW (North West present territory of Achaia and ) Peloponnese can be found in Annex "A" (click here). Column (c) is marked with the letter E in Greek and the letter A with the Albanian villages. (For example, the percentage of settlements with an Arvanite name is 74.5%. According to the above register, the Greeks of the region were less than Albanians: 1,742 Greek families and 1,836 Albanians are counted. More information can be found in the book by Vasilis Panagiotopoulos: "Population and settlements of the Peloponnese, 13th-18th century" (Historical Archive, Emporiki Bank of Greece, Athens, 1987), from which the above aggregate tables .
(The number of families in Greek villages were bigger on average, this is why Greek villages from 25% turned into 49% families, so those ''Rum'' - Romaioi villages were more sophisticated, we do not know what actual language was spoken on those Orthodox Villages besides Greek)
http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=372
P.S The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."
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View attachment 9020
Corinthia and Peloponnese are closer to Albania than Sicily and southren Italy. Ionian Italy is hard to distinguish.
Corinthia and Peloponnese are closer to Albania than Sicily and southren Italy. Ionian Italy is hard to distinguish.
matadworf
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Three of my grandparents are from Western Messenia and one from Eastern Laconia (a village in the Parnon Mts). My gedmatch results have me typically clustering with NW Greeks, Italians Abruzzo, Albanians, Tuscans, Central Italians, Siracusan Italians as a single pop and South Italians/Hungarians, Polish, Bulgarians as a two pop mix. Just my two cents. Thanks.
Yetos
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If you exclude Theba,
the Venician chronicles speak about 10 000 at venician colonies,
how come 290 000?
when that number is the population of peloponese around around 1800,
Do you understand the astronomical number you give?
consider the few Slavic Vilagges, in peloponese and the Turks, and the Italians and the Francs and 290 000 !!!
man what time?
the census of 1860 gave about 50-55 000 Arvanitika and Vlachika speakers in all old Greece
exageration..... simply stupid
the first census of 1828 gave to old Greece,
743 000 citizens, in Peloponese Sterea and the that time islands,
and in that number is also included the ones who devastate to the newly born state,
the number you give is just a hoax
Peloponese at the Census of 1829 made by Francais was 336 366 citizens,
and you tell us that Arvanites were 290 000
not only exageration, and stupid, but simply, UNRELIABLE ALBANIAN HISTORIAN
Keep reading stupid writers
your numbers give 86,21% in Peloponesos were Arvanites
Wow the rest 14% Greeks assimilated the 86% Arvanites !!!!!!
Next time think before you post crap History
PS
751 077 is the 1836 census of king Othon in whole old Greek Preferacture
PS2
I suggest read Isaak Asimov, you would find more truth in science fiction stories
I never said 290,000 was correct but it was given by George Sphrantzes, so Arvanites were very numerous that Sphratzes asserted this inflated number.
-According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). (1975: 6)
-An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290000 and could provide 30000 fighters.(Arvanitet dhe Shqiptaret ne Luften Clirimtare te Popullit Grek, 1985)
-N. L. G. Hammond, a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view, said that by the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of thepeople of the Peloponnese were Albanian speaker. (N.L.G. Hammond, Greece Old and New, p. 44).
-George Finlay indicated that Peloponnesus still had a majority Albanian population during mid-nineteenth century. (George Findlay, A History of Greece: The Greek Revolution, pt.1, p. 29)
In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians.(Edmond About, Greece and Greeks of present day, MDCCCLY, p. 49)
-A more conservative number comes from J. G. Hahn who in in 1854 estimated that“ofa total of one million inhabitants of Greece, about 173,000 were Albanians”. (Vasiliiev, A. A., History of the Byzantine Empire, 1964, Vol. 2, p.615)
-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.
P.S The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."
Mazaris wrote:
«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].
"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).
Here: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/fig_tab/ejhg2015124f2.html#figure-title
Do you see how close Euboea is to Italy?
The Venetians brought many Albanians in Euboea, where some points were devastated by plague. Ceded to them to cultivate fallow provided to keep horses and ranked them by the young in the army and defend your country from Evia listopeirates and other enemies. 1363 (June 8), the Venetian Senate finds that " the Negroponte (the city) and the entire island (Evia) have colonized and income taxes are too high "; (see Thiriet, Regestes, I, pp. . 105, No. 408). From Evia Albanians immigrated to Andros and other islands.
B. Randolph (1687) says that the Christian population of Euboea was in his day almost entirely Albanian.
Source: "Albanian Settlements in the Aegean Islands", F. W. Hasluck -- The Annual of the British School at Athens -- Vol. 15 (1908/1909), pp. 223-228. Published by: British School at Athens.
Euboea is a 'mosaic' of inhabitants
https://www.medievalroutes.gr/en/digital-exhibits/franks-venetians-and-catalans-in-central-greece/
- In the cities of Euboea, and particularly Chalkis, the number of inhabitants from the West increased, especially with Venetians and Lombard traders, as well as adventurers, who lived in the own settlements. The period was rocked by constant feuds and claims within the ruling class.
- The city of Negroponte, as Chalkis was then known, was highly multicultural, as were, most likely, Karystos and Oreon, where the local Orthodox population, the Latins, Venetians, Lombards and Jews all co-existed.
- David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians..."
Dianatomia
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^^ There were five demographers in the 19th century who analysed the population of the first Greek kingdom. For the Arvanites, it was all in the range between 7% and 12 %. The larger percentage was the one of Albanologist von Hahn who counted mixed Arvanites and bilingual villages as Arvanites. Given that only 20% of the Greek population resided in the first Greek state. The percentage of Arvanites ancestry in Greeks is in the range between 1 to 3% of the total population.
And indeed, in Eubia there were many Arvanites. Some 1/3 of the total population.
http://kleftouria.blogspot.nl/2008/04/1821_19.html
And indeed, in Eubia there were many Arvanites. Some 1/3 of the total population.
http://kleftouria.blogspot.nl/2008/04/1821_19.html
Arvanites abandoned their language and were hellinised by the church before the 18th century. Just like the Vlachs of Thessaly were:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia
Dianatomia
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^^ The church during the Ottoman Empire must have been more ferocious than most fascist regimes in the 20th century. I am afraid this is a claim with no substance.
BTW read your source more carefully.
BTW read your source more carefully.
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