Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

Arvanites abandoned their language and were hellinised by the church before the 18th century. Just like the Vlachs of Thessaly were:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia


ihype02

arvanitika were abandoned at 1930 about at the strong core villages,
at 1800 Arvanitika were spoken in Old Greece,
and not only by Arvanites,
most population of old Greece was billingual trillingual etc,
they could not write, but they spoke 2-3 languages.

you see Arvanites at 1800 were indeed billingual
as also many Greeks knew Arvanitika according the area
or they knew Turkish
or Russian or Italian or Francais or Arabian etc
so the History approach and also the linguistic approach do certify the existance of Arvanites,
But does not certify the numbers that Albanian propaganda gives,

try to understand this.

today in Greece are more albanians emigrants from 1990 than in old Greece.
 
None of those numbers I gave are ''Albanian propaganda''. Sphrantzes, Randolph, Trudgill, Hammond and others were/are not Albanians. The whole population of Morea in XV century was not over 290,000 I said from the beginning that the number is inflated, but it was an error by the Byzantine writer.

Arvanitika was spoken bilingually only by a small number in 19th century, most of Arvanites in (early) 19th century were monolingual.

 
^^ The church during the Ottoman Empire must have been more ferocious than most fascist regimes in the 20th century. I am afraid this is a claim with no substance.

BTW read your source more carefully.
This isn't so. Arvanites and others were under the Rum milet and tight up with the Byzantine Church they had no ''nationality'' besides being an Orthodox Christian.

The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks."

Who are these Albanians? Why did Bernard Randolph not find or report on any Hellenes in Arcadia as a whole, in 1686? We do know that modern Neo-Hellenes appear on the maps in the 19th century, but who are these modern Hellenes? Did Randolph's 'Arcadian Albanians' of the late 17th century evaporate within a hundred years or so, to be replaced by a new population of modern Hellenes? We do not find any historical reports from 1686 until the 19th century of large-scale population movements into Arcadia, and/or extermination or genocide of the 'Arcadian Albanians'. It seems evident and likely, that the logical explanation is that the native inhabitants of Arcadia (both Arvanites and Vlachs) exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek.

The 10th century "Byzantine" anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythi-Slavs'."

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'."

Who were these Scythians and/or Scythi-Slavs? What happened to them? Did they evaporate into thin air at some later stage of history? Were they exterminated fully? One thing seems evident - whoever these 'Scythians' were, they settled into Peloponnese lands and regions that were (already) largely empty. (If not, these 'Scythians' exterminated or drove out whatever locals they found.)

«Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".
 
I have a question. My maternal grandmother was from a village on the SW edge of Arcadia in the Parnon mountains called Paliochori. She died when I was young so I really never lesrned much about the history of her village. Always wondered whether it was Tsakonian or not. If you have any insights it would be much appreciated!
 
This isn't so. Arvanites and others were under the Rum milet and tight up with the Byzantine Church they had no ''nationality'' besides being an Orthodox Christian.

Slavs were absorbed by Romanians, Albanians and also Greeks obviously. No one here refutes that. There is nothing unique in the case of the Greeks. As for the Arvanites, all demographic data shows that they were but a small fraction of the overall Greek populace in the 19th century (1 to 3%). We have to be scientific and use demographic sources. Arvanites settled in Greek area's when they were either under Venetian or Turkish rule. Those administrations did not care about languages. The Greek church was powerless. Look at Macedonia, during the Ottoman era, the Greek element has been declining, even in the Ancient (Hellenic) part. I see Greek speakers who started speaking Turkish in Greece and Crete. The whole of Anatolia was de-Hellenized. The Balkans was sclavinized, Southern Italy was Latinized. The rest is only hypothetical.

None of those numbers I gave are ''Albanian propaganda''. Sphrantzes, Randolph, Trudgill, Hammond and others were/are not Albanians. The whole population of Morea in XV century was not over 290,000 I said from the beginning that the number is inflated, but it was an error by the Byzantine writer.


It could be true, but the Arvanite population in the 15th century according to the Venetians was 30.000.

And what was the population of Albania around the same time? Could you look that up?

 

It's not a PCA though. It's a "non-metric multidimensional scaling bi-dimensional plot of FST pairwise genetic distances among investigated population samples and additional reference samples from the literature based on the frequencies of 17 Y haplogroups."

Btw the Italian sampling is weird, especially for Northern and Central Italy.

Northern Italy: Udine in Friuli, most northeastern point of north Italy, and La Spezia in Liguria, basically the border with central Italy (Tuscany).

Central Italy: Latina in southern Lazio at the border with south Italy (and often south Lazio itself is considered already south Italy); Ascoli Piceno in southern Marche at the border with Abruzzo, Abruzzo itself is considered south Italy and the Ascolano dialect is a southern Italian language).
 
It's not a PCA though. It's a "non-metric multidimensional scaling bi-dimensional plot of FST pairwise genetic distances among investigated population samples and additional reference samples from the literature based on the frequencies of 17 Y haplogroups."

Btw the Italian sampling is weird, especially for Northern and Central Italy.

Northern Italy: Udine in Friuli, most northeastern point of north Italy, and La Spezia in Liguria, basically the border with central Italy (Tuscany).

Central Italy: Latina in southern Lazio at the border with south Italy (and often south Lazio itself is considered already south Italy); Ascoli Piceno in southern Marche at the border with Abruzzo, Abruzzo itself is considered south Italy and the Ascolano dialect is a southern Italian language).
Yes I recognized that too.
 
Slavs were absorbed by Romanians, Albanians and also Greeks obviously. No one here refutes that. There is nothing unique in the case of the Greeks. As for the Arvanites, all demographic data shows that they were but a small fraction of the overall Greek populace in the 19th century (1 to 3%). We have to be scientific and use demographic sources. Arvanites settled in Greek area's when they were either under Venetian or Turkish rule. Those administrations did not care about languages. The Greek church was powerless. Look at Macedonia, during the Ottoman era, the Greek element has been declining, even in the Ancient (Hellenic) part. I see Greek speakers who started speaking Turkish in Greece and Crete. The whole of Anatolia was de-Hellenized. The Balkans was sclavinized, Southern Italy was Latinized. The rest is only hypothetical.



It could be true, but the Arvanite population in the 15th century according to the Venetians was 30.000.

And what was the population of Albania around the same time? Could you look that up?

It is not true because the population of the whole Peloponnese even in early 1800s was 200,000 - 300,000. The 30,000 figure seems much more accurate. However I will look it up with whole population.
 
Actually, most likely the population in the Peloponnese in the early 1800s was about 500.000-600.000. Since the official number for the Greek kingdom in 1821 was 938,765. And at that time, Athens was a large village. So there could not have been too many inhabitants in that small part outside of the Peloponnese. Quite impossible actually. In any case, the 300.000 figure is very small even for the 15th century, since the Greek population had more or less stagnated throughout the Ottoman era.
 
Until the death of Suleiman the Magnificent in 1570, the Christian population counted at some 42,000 families c. 1550. (250,000?)
 
Actually, most likely the population in the Peloponnese in the early 1800s was about 500.000-600.000. Since the official number for the Greek kingdom in 1821 was 938,765. And at that time, Athens was a large village. So there could not have been too many inhabitants in that small part outside of the Peloponnese. Quite impossible actually. In any case, the 300.000 figure is very small even for the 15th century, since the Greek population had more or less stagnated throughout the Ottoman era.


743 000 all old Greece 1828
336 366 Pelopenese 1829
 
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It seems that Albanians are largely descendants of Mycenaean Greeks. Mycenaean like ancestry in modern Greeks and surrounding populations

Albanian
"Mycenaean" 59.45
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
"Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95

Greek
Mycenaean:I9041 39.55
Mycenaean:I9006 18.95
Mycenaean:I9010 14.50
Sintashta:RISE395 11.35
Corded_Ware_Germany:I0104 8.45
Polish 3.65
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1538 1.85
Belarusian 1.65
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443 0.05

Italian_South
"Mycenaean" 36.9
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 20.85
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 17.8
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 8.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 6.45
"Mozabite" 2.75
"Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665" 2.35
 
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It seems that Albanians are largely descendants of Mycenaean Greeks. Mycenaean like ancestry in modern Greeks and surrounding populations

Albanian
"Mycenaean" 59.45
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
"Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95

Greek
Mycenaean:I9041 39.55
Mycenaean:I9006 18.95
Mycenaean:I9010 14.50
Sintashta:RISE395 11.35
Corded_Ware_Germany:I0104 8.45
Polish 3.65
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1538 1.85
Belarusian 1.65
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443 0.05

Italian_South
"Mycenaean" 36.9
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 20.85
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 17.8
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 8.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 6.45
"Mozabite" 2.75
"Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665" 2.35

Curius cat

a question for you,

by what you DNA you give Myceneans?

by Y-Dna
by autosomals?
by What?

The papper of Lazrides is clear,
Myceneans are close to Minoans
and since that is correct,
then Albanians must be close to Cretans, !!!!!
are they?

So how come with what criteria,
you found that Albanians are Myceneans?

can you explain what your criteria on what you call Mycenean?

At least can you give the Mycenean Y and Mt DNA?

cause I have Mycenean mtDNA

9006 9010 9033 9041 were are shown more than mt and YDna?

in fact Minoan shows more European mt than Mycenean which shows more minor Asian/caucasian mt

Only J2axxx is found at Myceneans and Minoans
in fact the Y-Dna fits exactly with today % of Crete
 
Curius cat

a question for you,

by what you DNA you give Myceneans?

by Y-Dna
by autosomals?
by What?

The papper of Lazrides is clear,
Myceneans are close to Minoans
and since that is correct,
then Albanians must be close to Cretans, !!!!!
are they?

So how come with what criteria,
you found that Albanians are Myceneans?

can you explain what your criteria on what you call Mycenean?

At least can you give the Mycenean Y and Mt DNA?

cause I have Mycenean mtDNA

9006 9010 9033 9041 were are shown more than mt and YDna?

in fact Minoan shows more European mt than Mycenean which shows more minor Asian/caucasian mt

Only J2axxx is found at Myceneans and Minoans
in fact the Y-Dna fits exactly with today % of Crete
All Southern European score somehow high with Myceneans, it shows the inconsistency of the DNA studies about your historical research. The same goes the other way around.
 
Here you have the professor who did the list:
https://books.google.com/books?id=3...ved=0ahUKEwj9xZyc_dbUAhVJWhQKHTK_AMAQ6AEIJjAA

-Author Βασιλης Παναγιωτοπουλος
Edition reprint
Publisher Ιστορικο ΑρΧειο, Εμπορικη Τραπεζα της Ελλαδος, 1985
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Dec 12, 2009
Length 414 pages

How does that refute a more recent scientific study based on genetics? Its like saying the Bible proves the Canaanites were exterminated. When in fact their genetic continuity lives on in the Lebanese.

May I ask why you believe this history over the geneticists?
 
How does that refute a more recent scientific study based on genetics? Its like saying the Bible proves the Canaanites were exterminated. When in fact their genetic continuity lives on in the Lebanese.

May I ask why you believe this history over the geneticists?

I am sorry but how does that contradict the study?
 

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