Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

It appears that this study put the lie to Mr. Horologas' assertions.
 
Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?


I suggest read correct the Greek revolt from Orlov's to 1828
and seek the batlle of Lalla by Kolokotronis



Anyway

The Slavic admixture

The SLavic admixture in Greece as area not as nation reached Peloponese
we have toponyms like Helmos ex-Αροανεια and historical facts, the 2 tribe are (Ν)Εζεριται Μελιγγοι (Ν)ezer Meliggoi
they were absorved by time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai

Personally I always believed that there is a max 8-15% Slavic admixture at total Greek area (not from minor Asian) population except Crete and islands West and East.


A very small Slavic admixture might also pass from some Vlach-Aromani tribes (that descend from North Balkans) some Arbanites and from Byzantine guards
remember some Palaiologoi married Slavic brides
I repeat a small cause these tribes (Aromani etc ) are not considered Slavic but living nearby with South Slavic populations, as also some other Northern DNA like East Vikings.


about Peloponese and Ottomans,


Before Orlov's revolt 1770 estimated around 20 000
After Orlov's are about 40 000 due to Ottoman (Turk and Albanian) army
10 000 Albanian Army (Ottoman citizenship and Muslim religion = Turk to every census) came to Peloponese,
they went away after the battle of Lalla, and Kolokotronis struggle, to North to my Makedonia to Platamon, for stop but could not stay, so went East by ships, many ships sumk and raids against them by Diamantis Nikolaou.
not to be misunderstood, Albanians not Arbanites,
after June 1821 not a single Muslim existed at Peloponese except the city of Patrai
many descriptions are written about the crimes comited by Albanians against Greeks from 1770 to 1820 and Then by Greeks after 1821
but it is certain that when Greek state stablished not 1 muslim Albanian or Turk existed at Peloponese,

about ΤΣΑΚΩΝΕΣ Tsakones

their dialect come from antique and is clearly Dorian,
in fact it is the only live remnant of Dorian dialect in Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language


West European admixture Latinocracy

Peloponese due to her position had enough population traffic with West Europe,
Crusaders Francs Catalans Italians etc created castles and small kingdoms
Peloponese is affected by Francocracy Φραγκοκρατια from 1204 to 1430 (FranKs, Knights, Navarresse- Magna Societas)
and many parts/castles from Enetocracy Ενετοκρατια (Italy mainly Venice)


ROman era


at the Roman era Achaia and Corinthos (North Peloponese) was a significant center for Roman world and army


Now
I do not know how many marks left the above, countable on fingers or a consirable % , But these I believe are the main known devastations to Peloponese,
ok maybe I lost one,
 
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Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

It's time to retire these fossil studies from the 1800s.

A very large and reputable study was done of Balkan populations. There was no appreciable genetic difference between Bosnian Croats (Catholics), Bosnian Serbs (Orthodox), and Bosniaks (Muslim). I'm sure some people don't like to dwell on that given the idiocy they're used to spouting and the atrocities they committed. Do you have any idea why? It's because those Muslims descend from people of the Balkans who converted to Islam. Get it?

See: Koracevic et al
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

Balkan genetics.PNG

Also, it was you who pointed out there was a huge transfer of people in the 1920s between Greece and Turkey. Of course, contrary to what you asserted, that would have had no effect on the genetics of the study participants, which you failed to realize. Muslims went to Anatolia and Greek Orthodox came back to Greece.

So, a lot of Greeks who had converted to Islam moved to Greece, as well as the actual "genetic" Turks. That's where all those people went. That's also why there are so many younger Turks who show up as pretty Greek, in addition to the population processes that affected far western Turkey. What is so difficult about this?

Do you need another example? German descent and German speaking villages existed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, and no, there wasn't any appreciable level of intermarriage, and I know that from people from those villages. They had their own schools, their own stores, their own churches. After the second World War many of them went right back to Germany.

The Ashkenazim are another example. They spent hundreds of years surrounded by Poles and Russians and Lithuanians, and how much gene flow did they acquire? IBD doesn't lie: astonishingly little.

Stop thinking that Europe was like the U.S. It wasn't then and it isn't now.

This is the trouble with trying to make sense of population genetics without any background in the history of the countries being discussed, not to mention when bizarre agendas are involved.

If you really believed some of this anthrofora nonsense, you've been taken for a ride. The modern people of the old Magna Graecia are extremely similar to the modern people of mainland Greece. Deal with it.
 
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The extreme similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to "Italians" means Sicilians. at least if you're talking about actual "overlap". They compared the people of the Peloponnese with Sicilians, Tuscans, and Northern Italians, among others. Those groups are indeed on a cline, but the overlap is between the Peloponnese and Sicilians, not Peloponnese and Tuscans, and certainly not Peloponnese and Northern Italians.

My goodness; does no one study graphs and stats?

Greek Genetics.jpg

Click to enlarge.

The aqua is Tuscan, the green Sicilian (not Abuzzese or Campanian, although I wish they'd done it), and the red the Peloponnese, not Crete or the islands or Anatolia.

Are they identical? No, they're not, but they're pretty darn close. What else would you expect for goodness sakes, when so much of Magna Graecia was settled from there?
 
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Fallmerayer, really? There are people in 2017 who take his wishwash seriously? Already in 1834, four years after he published his ... (whatever), he was removed from his teacher job, because nobody wanted to get his children educated by this deadhead. Now people are still debating his poppy seed induced phantasms? Biedermeier "scholars" - eek!
 
Angela said:
Do you need another example? German descent and German speaking villages existed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, and no, there wasn't any appreciable level of intermarriage, and I know that from people from those villages.

If there was no intermarriage, then they should cluster in any PCA or GEDmatch with West Germans (which is where their Medieval ancestors came from). I guess it is easy to check. Just find someone who has all 16 (or at least the vast majority) of great-great grandparents from those particular villages, test their DNA and see if they cluster with West Germans.

Angela said:
The Ashkenazim are another example.

The Ashkenazim are a totally different story. I will give you two examples, check on your own:

This is an ethnic German with ancestry from my region* - GEDmatch kit A682720
And here an Ashkenazi Jew with ancestry from my region - GEDmatch kit T405698

See which one has more of Slavic admixture (you can use for example Eurogenes K13 calculator).

*And 15 out of her 16 great-great-grandparents had German surnames (just Kopiske is Slavic):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33714-Prussian-German-GEDmatch-results
 
Fallmerayer, really? There are people in 2017 who take his wishwash seriously? Already in 1834, four years after he published his ... (whatever), he was removed from his teacher job, because nobody wanted to get his children educated by this deadhead. Now people are still debating his poppy seed induced phantasms? Biedermeier "scholars" - eek!

Truly amazing, isn't it? In 2017, after all these genetics papers, including ones on the Balkans.
 
Another Prussian Jew (this one appears to have more of Gentile admixture than the one above):

GEDmatch - F425039

But still he is modelled as 1/2 North Italian + 1/2 Palestinian in Mixed Population Sharing.
 
My understanding is that Mussolini closed the Greek language schools in Italy in the 1920s. I also read that even today, Griko has not been entirely eradicated.

One of Mussolini's goals was to create a united Italy. Schools were to teach only in standard Italian (a form of Tuscan), he did close down certain schools, military people from the south were sent north and vice-versa, and on and on. I have to admit that my family did buy into that. Even years later, my father wouldn't let anyone speak dialect to me, either his or my mother's, because he wanted me to speak only "pure" Italian. It was also a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials, I think. The real death knell for dialects as well as other languages was the migration of southerners north starting in the 1950s and, maybe even more so, television.

Italy is very liberal compared to countries like France, however, in "protecting" certain languages, and passing laws that encourage their survival, including Griko. I think it may be too late, however.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...y.svg/300px-Languages_spoken_in_Italy.svg.png

This linguistic map shows the areas where Griko is still spoken. Just click on it to enlarge it.
http://rickzullo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/11-linguistic-map-Italy.png

Just some background on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_dialect

It's no longer spoken in my husband's ancestral areas.

However, in the Salento peninsula of Puglia, which among many other things, is a beautiful place for a summer vacation, there are still Griko speakers, and the Salento hosts a huge festival every August called the Taranta festival. They sing all the traditional songs and dance the pizzica. Groups singing Griko songs are often highlighted. You really should go if you can. It's so much fun, and I feel sure you'd fit right in. I'm convinced the pizzica was brought to Puglia from Greece. That's how the Maenads must have danced, or the women who danced with the "King" at the harvest festivals. :)

See "Kalinifta" below. I just love this song. Can you understand the lyrics?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7-tbfs75Xw

A "fun" one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0IxC2834zk

Pizzica by one of the best ballerine, imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7-tbfs75Xw

There are pizzica performances on the big stages, but also in small town squares:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj6AyVr-3P4

Random people are just out all night dancing. This woman does a traditional pizzica, and her daughter the more modern version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-UHk-7uoFI
 
It was also a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials, I think.

This is always understimated, that's extremely true that speaking a dialect instead of a correct Italian was often seen in the past as a sign of "lower class" credentials, on the other hand speaking a perfect Italian was seen as a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials.


Italy is very liberal compared to countries like France, however, in "protecting" certain languages, and passing laws that encourage their survival, including Griko. I think it may be too late, however.

Indeed.
 
Totally irrelevant point. The genetics of these samples is dated to 1860.

People should read papers before commenting on them, or at least read the summaries provided by other posters. They should also engage whatever brains they possess.

"Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."


The author of this study is another Greek. He knows what point he has to make so he can manipulate the data to make his point. Surprise! After all those ethnic strives and mixtures, that history has recorded, Greeks have remained the same!Genes have not mixed!?? Had you known a bit history of King's Otto decree to force everyone in Greece to learn Greek would have also been surprised how those genes are the same like Greeks of middle ages!? Greeks invented Trojan Horse, whats for them to manipulate some data that nobody has checked their accuracy or has intention to check. It would be naive to believe that story!
 
The author of this study is another Greek. He knows what point he has to make so he can manipulate the data to make his point. Surprise! After all those ethnic strives and mixtures, that history has recorded, Greeks have remained the same!Genes have not mixed!?? Had you known a bit history of King's Otto decree to force everyone in Greece to learn Greek would have also been surprised how those genes are the same like Greeks of middle ages!? Greeks invented Trojan Horse, whats for them to manipulate some data that nobody has checked their accuracy or has intention to check. It would be naive to believe that story!

This is total nonsense.

This paper had to pass peer review, unlike the work done by basement dwelling troglodytes who've never taken a pop gen course in their lives, and whose sources are the opposite of transparent. Like any other research group, these authors had to take and maintain detailed biographical information on all their samples, including the birth dates and place of birth of all four grandparents.

See:
"Design of the study and populations studied

The study has been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board of the University of Washington and the ethical committees of several provisional hospitals. We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."

You are aware that libel is actionable, aren't you? These authors are named, they are professional scientists, imputations of dishonesty could affect their livelihoods. I think they perhaps should be informed of the statements you're making. If someone wants to find "real" names for a lawsuit, it can be done you know. I would take heed.

Your hysteria is showing, doubtless because that house of cards is collapsing.

What is naive is to ever have believed half-baked theories, clearly agenda driven, based on "samples" which are totally unverifiable, and even if unfalsified, are at best self-selected, non-randomized, and perhaps admixed from numerous areas of Greece and the islands.

I would also point out that the authors are not claiming that the Greeks of the Peloponnese are some "pure" Greek group, whatever that even means. What they're saying is that the German "historian" was completely incorrect in saying that the Greeks of the Peloponnese were completely replaced with Slavs, which anyone with half a brain already knew. They're also saying that the people of the Peloponnese overlap with Sicilians.

That's it. If you think the methodology is wrong and that these conclusions are incorrect, prove it.

Btw, you are also imputing dishonesty to an entire ethnic group. That's another offense for which there are consequences.
 
Yetos: about ΤΣΑΚΩΝΕΣ Tsakones

their dialect come from antique and is clearly Dorian,
in fact it is the only live remnant of Dorian dialect in Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Yetos.

I do know, however, that there was a lot of settlement by Doric speakers in Magna Graecia. See here:

de9a675b2d3e98a4d3a80edd40060f6b.jpg
 
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Yetos.

I do know, however, that there was a lot of settlement by Doric speakers in Magna Graecia. See here:

de9a675b2d3e98a4d3a80edd40060f6b.jpg



I said in Greece not in Italy.
Grico is also considered as Dorian to many.
Although it is connected and with Mediaeval devastations.
 
Interesting study, but I honestly don't see the point of it. Even the "Slavs" that invaded those lands were barely Slavs, just like today's Balkan Slavs, especially the southernmost ones.

People need to realise that the Slavs and Goths only started as invading nomads that were later joined by hundreds of tribes of different ethnicity and languages who had a common goal, raid and find a better place to settle and live. The Goths themselves comprised of thousands of Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, and even Romans and Greeks who saw Rome as a bigger threat to their individual pockets than the invading barbarian pillagers. Same happened with Huns, meaning we're taking these political entities and trying to analyse the genetic influence they had on certain regions.

Having said that, Peloponnesus has been inhabited for millenias by millions of people and a bunch of highly mixed northern nomadic tribes are not going to affect its genetic makeup at all to the point that even that 0.02% seems a lot. Probably what they're including as Slavic is the admixture brought by Vlachs from the Northern Balkans as they're high in I-Din just like the South Slavic speakers. Even if Slavs did indeed settle in high numbers in there, their percentage would have been decreased by the high number of Arvanite settlers with almost identical genetic makeup as the local Greeks. And some food for thought, many Albanian/Arvanite settlements in Greece were the result of them being hired as mercenaries by the Serbian Kingdom, meaning even their armies were not made up of only "pure Serbs", but a mix of every ethnic group being conquered or simply hired as mercenaries.

If they really want to prove the Greekness of the Peloponnesians, why don't they just study the biggest linguistic minority in the region, the Arvanites. And it's surprising how out of every nationality used for comparison they forget the Albanians. Could it be that they will overlap so much with the Albanians that it will ruin their Greekness?

And that crap about connecting the similarities between the South Italians to the Greek colonization is another far fetched theory when the entire Southern Europe share Pre-Indo-European links with each other and we're talking about real massive population movements expanding continuously, not some bunch of Spartan hoplites founding cities on the coast of South Italy and immediately changing the percentage of haplogroup E-V13 and J2a.

On the other hand, did they include a haplogroup breakdown for Tsakonians and Maniots specifically as I did not come across any?
 
I've not understand these PCAs; why in the fig a half of the Peloponneseans plot north of Sicilians, and why in the fig b is the opposite? In the fig c they close the gap between Italians/Sicilians and Aegean and Anatolian Greeks?

url immagine
 
"The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out of Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple – indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent… for not even a drop of noble and undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.
[h=3]Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer[/h]
I think that this quote from Fallmerayer can be very helpful for this discussion here.
 
If there is an ethnic group among the today inhabitants of Greece, who deserve to be called "natives", this are the Albanians, or Arvanites. The rest are newcomers.
 

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