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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Do you need another example? German descent and German speaking villages existed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, and no, there wasn't any appreciable level of intermarriage, and I know that from people from those villages.
    If there was no intermarriage, then they should cluster in any PCA or GEDmatch with West Germans (which is where their Medieval ancestors came from). I guess it is easy to check. Just find someone who has all 16 (or at least the vast majority) of great-great grandparents from those particular villages, test their DNA and see if they cluster with West Germans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    The Ashkenazim are another example.
    The Ashkenazim are a totally different story. I will give you two examples, check on your own:

    This is an ethnic German with ancestry from my region* - GEDmatch kit A682720
    And here an Ashkenazi Jew with ancestry from my region - GEDmatch kit T405698

    See which one has more of Slavic admixture (you can use for example Eurogenes K13 calculator).

    *And 15 out of her 16 great-great-grandparents had German surnames (just Kopiske is Slavic):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Dmatch-results

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    Fallmerayer, really? There are people in 2017 who take his wishwash seriously? Already in 1834, four years after he published his ... (whatever), he was removed from his teacher job, because nobody wanted to get his children educated by this deadhead. Now people are still debating his poppy seed induced phantasms? Biedermeier "scholars" - eek!
    Truly amazing, isn't it? In 2017, after all these genetics papers, including ones on the Balkans.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Another Prussian Jew (this one appears to have more of Gentile admixture than the one above):

    GEDmatch - F425039

    But still he is modelled as 1/2 North Italian + 1/2 Palestinian in Mixed Population Sharing.

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    Pontic Greek GEDmatch kit: M171246

    Source: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5972736/1/

    Ethnicity: Greek with Pontic Greek ancestry (public kit): M171246
    Albanian: M635564
    Greek: F434801

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Another Prussian Jew (this one appears to have more of Gentile admixture than the one above):.
    What has it to do with this thread? We are discussing about Prussian Jews or Greeks in this thread? I'm probably missing something. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    My understanding is that Mussolini closed the Greek language schools in Italy in the 1920s. I also read that even today, Griko has not been entirely eradicated.
    One of Mussolini's goals was to create a united Italy. Schools were to teach only in standard Italian (a form of Tuscan), he did close down certain schools, military people from the south were sent north and vice-versa, and on and on. I have to admit that my family did buy into that. Even years later, my father wouldn't let anyone speak dialect to me, either his or my mother's, because he wanted me to speak only "pure" Italian. It was also a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials, I think. The real death knell for dialects as well as other languages was the migration of southerners north starting in the 1950s and, maybe even more so, television.

    Italy is very liberal compared to countries like France, however, in "protecting" certain languages, and passing laws that encourage their survival, including Griko. I think it may be too late, however.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Italy.svg.png

    This linguistic map shows the areas where Griko is still spoken. Just click on it to enlarge it.
    http://rickzullo.com/wp-content/uplo...-map-Italy.png

    Just some background on it:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_dialect

    It's no longer spoken in my husband's ancestral areas.

    However, in the Salento peninsula of Puglia, which among many other things, is a beautiful place for a summer vacation, there are still Griko speakers, and the Salento hosts a huge festival every August called the Taranta festival. They sing all the traditional songs and dance the pizzica. Groups singing Griko songs are often highlighted. You really should go if you can. It's so much fun, and I feel sure you'd fit right in. I'm convinced the pizzica was brought to Puglia from Greece. That's how the Maenads must have danced, or the women who danced with the "King" at the harvest festivals. :)

    See "Kalinifta" below. I just love this song. Can you understand the lyrics?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7-tbfs75Xw

    A "fun" one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0IxC2834zk

    Pizzica by one of the best ballerine, imo.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7-tbfs75Xw

    There are pizzica performances on the big stages, but also in small town squares:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj6AyVr-3P4

    Random people are just out all night dancing. This woman does a traditional pizzica, and her daughter the more modern version.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-UHk-7uoFI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It was also a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials, I think.
    This is always understimated, that's extremely true that speaking a dialect instead of a correct Italian was often seen in the past as a sign of "lower class" credentials, on the other hand speaking a perfect Italian was seen as a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials.


    Italy is very liberal compared to countries like France, however, in "protecting" certain languages, and passing laws that encourage their survival, including Griko. I think it may be too late, however.
    Indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Totally irrelevant point. The genetics of these samples is dated to 1860.

    People should read papers before commenting on them, or at least read the summaries provided by other posters. They should also engage whatever brains they possess.

    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."


    The author of this study is another Greek. He knows what point he has to make so he can manipulate the data to make his point. Surprise! After all those ethnic strives and mixtures, that history has recorded, Greeks have remained the same!Genes have not mixed!?? Had you known a bit history of King's Otto decree to force everyone in Greece to learn Greek would have also been surprised how those genes are the same like Greeks of middle ages!? Greeks invented Trojan Horse, whats for them to manipulate some data that nobody has checked their accuracy or has intention to check. It would be naive to believe that story!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    The author of this study is another Greek. He knows what point he has to make so he can manipulate the data to make his point. Surprise! After all those ethnic strives and mixtures, that history has recorded, Greeks have remained the same!Genes have not mixed!?? Had you known a bit history of King's Otto decree to force everyone in Greece to learn Greek would have also been surprised how those genes are the same like Greeks of middle ages!? Greeks invented Trojan Horse, whats for them to manipulate some data that nobody has checked their accuracy or has intention to check. It would be naive to believe that story!
    This is total nonsense.

    This paper had to pass peer review, unlike the work done by basement dwelling troglodytes who've never taken a pop gen course in their lives, and whose sources are the opposite of transparent. Like any other research group, these authors had to take and maintain detailed biographical information on all their samples, including the birth dates and place of birth of all four grandparents.

    See:
    "Design of the study and populations studied

    The study has been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board of the University of Washington and the ethical committees of several provisional hospitals. We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."

    You are aware that libel is actionable, aren't you? These authors are named, they are professional scientists, imputations of dishonesty could affect their livelihoods. I think they perhaps should be informed of the statements you're making. If someone wants to find "real" names for a lawsuit, it can be done you know. I would take heed.

    Your hysteria is showing, doubtless because that house of cards is collapsing.

    What is naive is to ever have believed half-baked theories, clearly agenda driven, based on "samples" which are totally unverifiable, and even if unfalsified, are at best self-selected, non-randomized, and perhaps admixed from numerous areas of Greece and the islands.

    I would also point out that the authors are not claiming that the Greeks of the Peloponnese are some "pure" Greek group, whatever that even means. What they're saying is that the German "historian" was completely incorrect in saying that the Greeks of the Peloponnese were completely replaced with Slavs, which anyone with half a brain already knew. They're also saying that the people of the Peloponnese overlap with Sicilians.

    That's it. If you think the methodology is wrong and that these conclusions are incorrect, prove it.

    Btw, you are also imputing dishonesty to an entire ethnic group. That's another offense for which there are consequences.

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    Yetos: about ΤΣΑΚΩΝΕΣ Tsakones

    their dialect come from antique and is clearly Dorian,
    in fact it is the only live remnant of Dorian dialect in Greece.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language
    I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Yetos.

    I do know, however, that there was a lot of settlement by Doric speakers in Magna Graecia. See here:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Yetos.

    I do know, however, that there was a lot of settlement by Doric speakers in Magna Graecia. See here:



    I said in Greece not in Italy.
    Grico is also considered as Dorian to many.
    Although it is connected and with Mediaeval devastations.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Interesting study, but I honestly don't see the point of it. Even the "Slavs" that invaded those lands were barely Slavs, just like today's Balkan Slavs, especially the southernmost ones.

    People need to realise that the Slavs and Goths only started as invading nomads that were later joined by hundreds of tribes of different ethnicity and languages who had a common goal, raid and find a better place to settle and live. The Goths themselves comprised of thousands of Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, and even Romans and Greeks who saw Rome as a bigger threat to their individual pockets than the invading barbarian pillagers. Same happened with Huns, meaning we're taking these political entities and trying to analyse the genetic influence they had on certain regions.

    Having said that, Peloponnesus has been inhabited for millenias by millions of people and a bunch of highly mixed northern nomadic tribes are not going to affect its genetic makeup at all to the point that even that 0.02% seems a lot. Probably what they're including as Slavic is the admixture brought by Vlachs from the Northern Balkans as they're high in I-Din just like the South Slavic speakers. Even if Slavs did indeed settle in high numbers in there, their percentage would have been decreased by the high number of Arvanite settlers with almost identical genetic makeup as the local Greeks. And some food for thought, many Albanian/Arvanite settlements in Greece were the result of them being hired as mercenaries by the Serbian Kingdom, meaning even their armies were not made up of only "pure Serbs", but a mix of every ethnic group being conquered or simply hired as mercenaries.

    If they really want to prove the Greekness of the Peloponnesians, why don't they just study the biggest linguistic minority in the region, the Arvanites. And it's surprising how out of every nationality used for comparison they forget the Albanians. Could it be that they will overlap so much with the Albanians that it will ruin their Greekness?

    And that crap about connecting the similarities between the South Italians to the Greek colonization is another far fetched theory when the entire Southern Europe share Pre-Indo-European links with each other and we're talking about real massive population movements expanding continuously, not some bunch of Spartan hoplites founding cities on the coast of South Italy and immediately changing the percentage of haplogroup E-V13 and J2a.

    On the other hand, did they include a haplogroup breakdown for Tsakonians and Maniots specifically as I did not come across any?

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    I've not understand these PCAs; why in the fig a half of the Peloponneseans plot north of Sicilians, and why in the fig b is the opposite? In the fig c they close the gap between Italians/Sicilians and Aegean and Anatolian Greeks?

    url immagine
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    "The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out of Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple – indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent… for not even a drop of noble and undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.
    Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer

    I think that this quote from Fallmerayer can be very helpful for this discussion here.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If there is an ethnic group among the today inhabitants of Greece, who deserve to be called "natives", this are the Albanians, or Arvanites. The rest are newcomers.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    This LABERIA character is a notorious ***** and shitposter who adds the same panoply of quotes, half-baked and out of context, in every Greek-related topic opened on various forums throughout the internet (one can look at his posting careers on forums like "the apricity" to see how obsessed he is with Greeks) and it's sad to see that he frequenlty does it on topics created even on this forum that's supposed to be somewhat strictly moderated.

    We already saw the Albanian inanity concering any Greek topic in the form of other posters but this guy takes the cake.

    Are you going to destroy every Greek-related topic created on this forum too, *****?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is total nonsense.

    This paper had to pass peer review, unlike the work done by basement dwelling troglodytes who've never taken a pop gen course in their lives, and whose sources are the opposite of transparent. Like any other research group, these authors had to take and maintain detailed biographical information on all their samples, including the birth dates and place of birth of all four grandparents.

    See:
    "Design of the study and populations studied

    The study has been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board of the University of Washington and the ethical committees of several provisional hospitals. We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."

    You are aware that libel is actionable, aren't you? These authors are named, they are professional scientists, imputations of dishonesty could affect their livelihoods. I think they perhaps should be informed of the statements you're making. If someone wants to find "real" names for a lawsuit, it can be done you know. I would take heed.

    Your hysteria is showing, doubtless because that house of cards is collapsing.

    What is naive is to ever have believed half-baked theories, clearly agenda driven, based on "samples" which are totally unverifiable, and even if unfalsified, are at best self-selected, non-randomized, and perhaps admixed from numerous areas of Greece and the islands.

    I would also point out that the authors are not claiming that the Greeks of the Peloponnese are some "pure" Greek group, whatever that even means. What they're saying is that the German "historian" was completely incorrect in saying that the Greeks of the Peloponnese were completely replaced with Slavs, which anyone with half a brain already knew. They're also saying that the people of the Peloponnese overlap with Sicilians.

    That's it. If you think the methodology is wrong and that these conclusions are incorrect, prove it.

    Btw, you are also imputing dishonesty to an entire ethnic group. That's another offense for which there are consequences.
    Fallmerayer was educated as a Greek lover and admirer of their culture. He turned bitter when he visited Greece since a large parts of the population did not speak the language and Greece he had read in books was not there. Fallmerayer is remembered as antislavic. Many ethnic groups had settled there. Knowing that Sicily has Germanic and Arab layers of populations how the genetic makeup of Peloponnese closely resemble Sicily?

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    On Anthrogenica they wrote that Slavs who invaded the Peloponnesus had most likely already been Balkan-admixed (after mixing with Balkan populations who lived to the north of Greece, in what is now Bulgaria, Serbia and Macedonia):

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian
    Should be an interesting read. Quickly, if they compared putative Slavic admxiture in greece against, say , Poles, it'll be an understimate, as the Slavs which moved in Peloponessus would already be 'Balkan admixed'. I guess without aDNA ; and a pre-determined hypothesis, I'd take this paper with a grain of salt.
    Quote Originally Posted by eastara
    Yes, why do they compare them to Russians and Poles and not to other Balkan Slavs. For example Bulgarians, considered a Slavic population, has much more in common with the Greeks than with Russians. At east they admit that Anatolian Greeks are not similar even to Greeks from Peloponnese, let alone Northern Greeks. I am tired of fighting those claiming Greeks are a homogeneous ethnicity. They are also preoccupied with ancient Greeks settling in Italy and forget the long colonisation of Greece by Venetians and other West Europeans living in different Crusader feudal states, which survived long after Ottoman invasion.
    Invading Slavs were not "100% Ukrainian-like", so the degree of population replacement could be higher.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    "The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out of Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple – indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent… for not even a drop of noble and undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.
    Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer


    I think that this quote from Fallmerayer can be very helpful for this discussion here.
    I have another interesting and helpful quote:

    While Nordic elements, combining sometimeswith Mediterranean stock, built the great civilisationsof ancient Greece and Rome, it was racial decay thatresulted in the collapse of both these great nations,and their consequent destruction by a new wave ofNordic peoples from northern Emope. It was the Nordicpeoples, combined partly with Mediterranean cousins,who created the great art and culture of thet-.Iiddle Ages, and again the same Nordic Europeanstock who brought about the Renaissance in NordicLombardy, together with the Reformation movement. lways culture centred, throughout Europe, amongstthe Nordic aristocracy who for a thousand years ormore after the Gothic period succeeded in retainingtheir racial identity, even in Spain and Portugal, wheretheir numbers were always relatively few. But steadily,the influence of Nordic, and even true-Mediterraneanblood, has been running slowly out, until today _littletrue Nordic or Mediterranean blood is to be foundin southern· and central Europe.Steady immigration into Europe from Africa hasdone much to destroy the old Mediterranean stock inthe so-called 'Latin' countries, while in central EuropeAlpine influences are spreading widely, and todaydominate the bulk of the continental area between theTeutoburger Wald and the Mediterranean Sea. At thesame time constant internecine warfare has destroyedthe Nordic element, always attracted· to the scene ofmilitary activities more than any other race, whilesocial revolution has uprooted or annihiliated the Nordicaristocracy in most non-Nordic lands for Communismwas never an ally of ruling racial castes. Eyidenceof the vast racial changes which have taken place inEurope, and are even now taking place with ever increasingrapidity, is to be found in any graveyard, theexcavation of which reveals the knowledge that themodern inhabitants of central and southern Europe,whom we see walking the streets today, are in the mainfar removed from the old European stock.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Fallmerayer was educated as a Greek lover and admirer of their culture. He turned bitter when he visited Greece since a large parts of the population did not speak the language and Greece he had read in books was not there. Fallmerayer is remembered as antislavic. Many ethnic groups had settled there. Knowing that Sicily has Germanic and Arab layers of populations how the genetic makeup of Peloponnese closely resemble Sicily?
    It's obvious that there is an Euro-East-Mediterranean cluster that includes South Italy, the Aegean, Siciliy, some Albanians and a few other populations. You'll either have to come up with a very complex explanation for the formation of such a cluster from the movements of Slavs, Vikings, Goths and Arabs, or simply accept that perhaps present day Greeks might have some similarity to the people who lived there before and spoke the same language.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Fallmerayer was educated as a Greek lover and admirer of their culture. He turned bitter when he visited Greece since a large parts of the population did not speak the language and Greece he had read in books was not there. Fallmerayer is remembered as antislavic. Many ethnic groups had settled there. Knowing that Sicily has Germanic and Arab layers of populations how the genetic makeup of Peloponnese closely resemble Sicily?
    Arabs to say Berbers were expelled from Sicily, if we have Arab admixture (not confirmed by any genetic study who have calculated Berber admixture as very negligible), Peloponneseans have Turkish admixture. ;)

    Repetita iuvant

    At this respect, the distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M81 is widely associated in literature with recent gene flows from North-Africa [49]. Besides the low frequency (1.5%) of E-M81 lineages in general observed in our SSI dataset, the typical Maghrebin core haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 [8] has been found in only two out of the five E-M81 individuals. These results, along with the negligible contribution from North-African populations revealed by the admixture-like plot analysis, suggest only a marginal impact of trans-Mediterranean gene flows on the current SSI genetic pool.

    However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (32611345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0096074

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I have another interesting and helpful quote:
    Who is the author?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    REPORT ON THE ALBANIANS OF GREECE
    by the Commission of the European Community
    .... In Greece, there are only Greeks.”
    Would be interested in a link to the Report cited above. Would like to see its conclusions.

    As to the quote of 'only Greeks' in Greece, that is national policy. The Turks have the same view. So, it should not be surprising that knowledge of Greek is what the schools and official entities would emphasize. What people do in their homes is their own business.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    If they really want to prove the Greekness of the Peloponnesians, why don't they just study the biggest linguistic minority in the region, the Arvanites. And it's surprising how out of every nationality used for comparison they forget the Albanians.
    They didn't only leave out Albanians, but everyone south of Ukraine. There are no comparisons with South Slavs either. (Serbs and Macedonians are listed in the populations used but appear nowhere in the results as far as I can see). Their conclusions seem to be based on ADMIXTURE and PCA without nearby reference populations, and IBD analysis is only applied to internal relationships of the Peleponnese populations. It is an interesting investigation of the local structure but they really are not trying very hard to find relationships with other populations in the Balkans.

    Not that I believe the native Greeks magically evaporated in the Ottoman period, and Kushniarevish found rather low IBD sharing between Slavs and Greek, but still.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I am only going to be saying this once, people: Cut it out.

    This thread is not, repeat, not, going to be ruined and turned into the setting for another Balkan War.

    This thread is not about the treatment of Albanians or Albanian speakers in Greece, or even the genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians, which obviously exist.

    For those who don't see the point of the paper, just look at how that fossil Falmerayer still gets thrown out there.

    @Marko,
    I hope that quote was posted in a spirit of irony.

    @Nik,
    Obviously, the genetic links between Greece and Italy are multiple, reaching back into the Neolithic and the Bronze Age. That doesn't mean that the Greek settlement of Magna Graecia had no impact. Nor does it mean that there wasn't gene flow in the other direction as well.

    As to the "Slavs", I don't know how "mixed" the group was that actually entered Greece. I see this comment often, but I don't see any proof provided. Were there long periods of hiatus along the way, where they mixed with locals, before moving onto Greece? Do you have actual documentary evidence for it? We certainly have no ancient dna, which would actually answer a lot of these questions.

    I also wish there had been comparisons with other Balkan populations, as well as with other areas of Greece and Italy (and something besides PCA and ADMIXTURE). However, would similarities between northern Balkan peoples and Greeks mean that the incoming "Slavs" to Greece were mixed?

    Is it really news to anyone that "South Slavs", while they may speak Slavic languages, aren't actually "Slavs" genetically? The paper is addressing the question of how much non-Balkan actual Slavic genetics is in the people of the Peloponnese.

    I actually think Poles are a good choice for seeing overall historic "Slav" similarity. Look at the IBD sharing analysis from Ralph and Coop.
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NsM0V5DAj...op_2_small.png

    Oh, for new members to the forum, I know how provocative some of this stuff can be, but stay civil, and no cursing.

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