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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The relation of Albanian to Thessaly is probably related to the large Vlach community, that was present there around 1200.


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    Thessalians have the highest rates of E-V13 of all Greeks. Vlachs in particular have less E-V13, than the average Greek. Similarly Vlachs have a high rates of R1b while Thessalians have the least of all Greeks. There is no clear link there. I think the Vlachs have been genetically overwhelmed by the Greeks. Even the Vlach villages which have survived in the Pindus mountains (their habitat) are probably a Greco-Vlach mix genetically. They are closer to the Greeks, than they are to Serbian Vlachs, who in their turn are closer to the Serbs. So this is not a Greek phenomenon. Nomads can not overwhelm settled inhabitants who inhabit cities and many villages. But their language and some customs can survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Thessalians have the highest rates of E-V13 of all Greeks. Vlachs in particular have less E-V13, than the average Greek. Similarly Vlachs have a high rates of R1b while Thessalians have the least of all Greeks. There is no clear link there. I think the Vlachs have been genetically overwhelmed by the Greeks. Even the Vlach villages which have survived in the Pindus mountains (their habitat) are probably a Greco-Vlach mix genetically. They are closer to the Greeks, than they are to Serbian Vlachs, who in their turn are closer to the Serbs. So this is not a Greek phenomenon. Nomads can not overwhelm settled inhabitants who inhabit cities and many villages. But their language and some customs can survive.

    If by overwhelm you mean this they surely are, but this was not the situation around 1200 according to different sources.
    IMG_3246.jpg



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    Lets not mix Aromani with Vlachs and with Romanians,

    I said many times,
    the researches show that both Armani and Romani are culturally connected, sometimes even genetically,
    BUT IS NOT A Nationality,

    Aromani
    1. mainly are local balcanic population, Greeks Thracians etc who adopted the Roman language and culture wich was the elites for centuries to milleniums,
    the could be farm workers, public issue, soldiers etc etc, but mainly around local Roman villas (Villachion-> βιλαετιον -> Vlach)
    2 secondary are Roman Legion descentants, that was given land at retirement, especially in areas with high Roman presence, and mainly above Diocletian distinguish order of Greek or Latin language of Legion?
    that connect them with every piece of Roman empire where they had the legion,

    Romanians
    1. the same with above
    2 the same with above
    3 The tribe of Antes , Antes was a Slavic tribe who got assimilated by Romans and East Romans and become Romeo-Latino phones, (Vlachophones)

    The genetical connection of Vlach is searched many times, and always shows different groups,
    Triantaphyllides of Auth even proved that in a range of about 40 km distance, the Vlachs of 2 communities share very litlle common genetical,
    Yet we know that Vlachs are a strong cultural group, no matter their origin,
    and very preservative,

    The other view,
    the term Vlach might be Greek origin,
    According Homer there is a word Βληχη in Makedonian and Doric Βληχα Βλαχα menaing the sound of sheeps

    That fits with the 3 first describes of Historians about the term Vlach,

    1. Monastery of Βλαχαιρνων (Blachairnon not Vlachairnon) (pastoralis area outside the walls with many water fountains)
    2 Pastores Romanorum (Blachii not Vlachii) Gesta Hungarorum.
    3
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kedrenos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Skylitzes descibe them as seminomadic living in tents, and Guiders of Roman army and guardians of Romans


    Now the big difference
    Notice
    Wales in Greek is turn as Ου -αλοι so Wallachians will be turn to Ουλλαχοι not vlachoi

    But if I take the term in Slavic term Volxu cognates with Germanic Walhaz Walhiskaz meaning Celt or Foreigner.

    So the major difference is on how they call their language
    the usage of term Aromani Aramani Rami Ramani Armani Armanesti Armanestu Remi Aremani Armeni shows rather local origin
    than the term Vlahisti or Blahisti.

    many times in Greek a rude behavour man is called Βλαχος, Sometimes other tribes like sarakatsans or mountain breeders are call Vlaxoi.
    THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VLACH-AROMANI IDENTITY, RATHER WITH GREEK TERM OF Βληχη and means either Sheppards-pastoralis people, either 'rusticus' rude.

    So the Greek term of Bλαχος may have not same meaning with Slavic term Volxu.
    Vlachs are identified to them shelves as Aromani Ramas etc
    identification as Vlach is rather new and imported possible from Romania Wallachs or Slavic Vloxu
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    If by overwhelm you mean this they surely are, but this was not the situation around 1200 according to different sources.
    IMG_3246.jpg

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    Very few Greeks from Asıa Mınor settled ın Thessaly or Epirus. Most were settled in Northern Greece (Macedonia and Thrace) and Athens. Vlachs were overwhelmed already in Medieval times. It's just a minority in a region which has been absorbed by the locals. Genetically I think they were mixed with Greeks from the region already in the Middle Ages. As there have always been Greek towns and villages in the areas/mountains where Vlachs nomadic tribes settled.

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    The effect of the Greeks from Asia Minor, if people are talking about the early twentieth century people exchanges, is irrelevant in terms of this paper.

    The authors not only checked that each sample participant was descendant from four "local" grandparents, but they picked people old enough that those grandparents were all born in the late 1800s.

    Clearly, they were aware of the problem in terms of sampling.


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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    Belarusians Russians Polish Ukrainians French Italians Basque Andalusians
    Deep Mani 0.7 (0.1) 1.6 (0.7) 0.9 (0.4) 1.0 (0.3) 6.4 (3.5) 25.3 (21.7) 0.3 (0.2) 7.6 (5.1)
    West Tayetos 4.9 (5.1) 8.6 (6.9) 6.8 (5.4) 6.5 (5.7) 16.4 (12.7) 41.5 (32.5) 0.6 (0.5) 15.2 (11.1)
    East Tayetos 5.7 (3.4) 10.9 (4.0) 7.9 (3.7) 8.0 (3.7) 27.7 (4.8) 58.0 (20.7) 2.0 (1.4) 27.0 (4.3)
    North Tsakonia 3.9 (1.7) 8.2 (2.1) 5.0 (2.2) 6.0 (2.2) 26.7 (3.5) 51.2 (4.6) 1.5 (1.1) 26.9 (3.5)
    South Tsakonia 0.2 (0.0) 0.9 (0.4) 0.4 (0.1) 0.6 (0.2) 4.1 (2.9) 14.2 (11.0) 0.2 (0.1) 5.3 (3.8)
    a The first number for each pair of populations indicates the average shared ancestry for values of K between 4 and 8, while the number in parenthesis indicates the s.d.

    Belarusians Russians Polish Ukrainians French Italians Basque Andalusians
    Argolis 5.4 (1.5) 12.2 (1.2) 5.8 (0.8) 6.8 (1.1) 39.1 (19.2) 94.7 (4.8) 2.8 (1.4) 60.5 (5.9)
    Corinthia 5.9 (1.7) 13.0 (1.3) 6.3 (1) 7.5 (1.3) 41.2 (18.5) 94.9 (4.0) 3.1 (1.7) 62.0 (5.9)
    Achaea 6.5 (1.7) 13.8 (1.1) 7.0 (0.8) 8.1 (1.1) 41.4 (18.4) 94.8 (4.0) 2.7 (1.4) 61.3 (5.8)
    Arcadia 5.3 (1.8) 10.9 (2.4) 5.2 (1.2) 6.2 (1.5) 39.1 (18.2) 85.4 (14.6) 2.4 (1.4) 53.8 (9.1)
    Elis 6.1 (1.3) 13.1 (1.2) 6.5 (0.8) 7.6 (1.1) 41.4 (18.3) 95.0 (3.3) 3.3 (1.7) 61.6 (5.6)
    Messenia 6.7 (1.7) 14.4 (1.2) 7.3 (0.9) 8.5 (1.2) 42.6 (18.4) 95.2 (4.0) 2.7 (1.3) 61.8 (5.7)
    Laconia 4.8 (1.2) 11.4 (1.5) 5.2 (0.9) 6.4 (1.1) 41.1 (14.6) 96.1 (2.3) 2.3 (1.4) 59.8 (5.6)
    Population N Proportion of Pairs with IBD2 Mean (SD) Length (cM)3 Mean Pairwise IBD (cM)4
    IBD Shared With Deep Mani (n=22)1
    Achaea 21 44.2% 3.0 (1.1) 1.8
    Arcadia 13 57.3% 3.0 (1.1) 2.6
    Argolis 16 38.4% 3.1 (1.2) 1.8
    Corinthia 16 43.2% 3.0 (1.3) 1.8
    East Tayetos 23 94.3% 3.7 (1.9) 35.2
    Elis 23 53.0% 3.2 (1.3) 2.7
    Laconia 26 73.8% 3.4 (1.5) 11.3
    Messenia 21 54.1% 3.2 (1.2) 2.8
    Northern Tsakonia 9 65.2% 3.2 (1.3) 3.9
    Southern Tsakonia 15 69.1% 3.2 (1.4) 4.2
    West Tayetos 24 96.2% 3.6 (1.8) 36.9
    IBD Shared With Southern Tsakonia (n=15)1
    Achaea 21 60.0% 3.2 (1.3) 3.3
    Arcadia 13 78.5% 3.4 (1.5) 5.1
    Argolis 16 65.8% 3.4 (1.6) 4.2
    Corinthia 16 70.4% 3.1 (1.2) 3.5
    Deep Mani 22 69.1% 3.2 (1.4) 4.2
    East Tayetos 23 89.0% 3.2 (1.4) 7.0
    Elis 23 64.1% 3.2 (1.2) 3.2
    Laconia 26 88.0% 3.5 (2.0) 9.7
    Messenia 21 64.4% 3.2 (1.3) 3.5
    Northern Tsakonia 9 100.0% 4.4 (2.7) 94.1
    People from Deep Mani be modeled as only 25.3% ~ Sicilian-like? Doesn't make any sense?
    Edit: It must be refering to another Italian population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuxx View Post
    ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?
    Gheg Albanians Arbereshe Kosovars
    E-V13 38% 15% 45.00%
    E1b-xV13 13%
    J2b 25% 3% 13.00%
    J2a 2.50%
    R1b-L51 xP311 12% 0% 24%
    R1b-M269 xL51 4.20% 8%
    I2a-M223 3.30% 10% 2.00%
    I2a-xM26,M223 10%
    R1a-M17 2.50% 10% 3.00%
    I1-M253 3.30% 5.30% 3.00%

    Most Albanians Doubt it.
    Kosovars and north Albanians certainly.
    Have less East European Admixture like Sicilians and Peloponnesians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Gheg Albanians Arbereshe Kosovars
    E-V13 38% 15% 45.00%
    E1b-xV13 13%
    J2b 25% 3% 13.00%
    J2a 2.50%
    R1b-L51 xP311 12% 0% 24%
    R1b-M269 xL51 4.20% 8%
    I2a-M223 3.30% 10% 2.00%
    I2a-xM26,M223 10%
    R1a-M17 2.50% 10% 3.00%
    I1-M253 3.30% 5.30% 3.00%

    Most Albanians Doubt it.
    Kosovars and north Albanians certainly.
    Have less East European Admixture like Sicilians and Peloponnesians.
    I am from south Albania and I score high....?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Very few Greeks from Asıa Mınor settled ın Thessaly or Epirus. Most were settled in Northern Greece (Macedonia and Thrace) and Athens. Vlachs were overwhelmed already in Medieval times. It's just a minority in a region which has been absorbed by the locals. Genetically I think they were mixed with Greeks from the region already in the Middle Ages. As there have always been Greek towns and villages in the areas/mountains where Vlachs
    nomadic tribes settled.
    You are Absolutely right.
    Which make all those maps and charts circulating about ''Northern Greece'' and ''Northern Greeks'' false. I dont know what's even the point of drawing them as they dont reflect the reality. Not just the present genetic reality, obviously as it excludes all the refuges and all the mixed refuge-local people from the genetic profile of the region(more than 90% of the population), but also they dont reflect the past demographic profile of the region, the one before 1920. You cant exclude half the historic population of a region, like the Muslim Greeks, and expect to have realistic results. Most of those (autosomal)researches that amateur geneticists use to draw far reaching conclusions, also have many other methodological mistakes.To the researchers defense, these studies weren't design to reconstruct historical populations but for other purposes. But once you do use them in an attempt to reconstruct historical populations, you ll stumble on many unsolvable problems, like NOT taking into account the degree of mixing of locals with refugees. In some regions it is 100% in others(mountainous regions) it is zero. 1920 was 5 generations ago. Since you ll need non ''contaminated'' DNA samples to reconstruct the historical population, you ll need old persons , old enough to have 4 grandfathers from the region before 1920. Non mixed persons.
    In some regions the proportion of non-mixed 80(-/+) year olds is 100% of the 80 year olds, in others is 10% and others have all the ranges in between. Since most of these researches treat Macedonia as one unit, what you ll get is disproportional representation of some areas that were unefected from both the population exchanges and the resettlements of refugees..
    Lets say for example , it is possible(and very likely) that you ll have as many ''80 years old with 4 grandparents from the pre-1920 region '' in the border communities which represent 3-4% of the population as in the rest of Macedonia combined where half a million refugees mixed to high degrees with half a million locals for 100 years. 80 year olds with 4 grandparents from pre 1920 Macedonia, originating from the border regions, dont necessarily live in the border regions nowadays. Since then they have scattered all over Macedonia as internal economic immigrants. You ll need to control for that too, probably at the level of the village.
    In order to reconstruct the historical population of Macedonia you will need thousands of samples, that reflect the geographic diversity and the regional population density of pre-1920 Macedonia.You would also need to correct for historical events of the 20thst century(famines,genocides,population exchanges etc etc)

    Density and Impact of Refugees settlements.
    f fgfev.jpg

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    The focus of this paper was the population genetic history of the people of the Peloponnese and larger Greece before the changes which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. That's why, as I've already pointed out three times, they tested people in their 70s who also had all four grandparents from that area.

    If someone wants to do a test of all of Greece just going by residence or something, they're free to do that.

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    Very interesting


    I have always thought of ancient / classical Greeks as similar to the Sardinian people with a little more steppe ancestry. The relative proximity between modern Peloponnese and modern Sicily may indicate a more 'central' or 'southeast' Mediterranean position for ancient Greeks, but I am not sure to say. But certainly the ancient Greeks are more towards what is now southern Europe than north. I would like the study to also include comparison with more populations in Italy - especially Sardinia - such as the southern Balkans


    Despite the Slavic influences and the eastern Mediterranean - which existed, but was moderate - modern Greeks probably remain close to the ancient Greeks and preserve the language - which naturally changes with time

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    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The focus of this paper was the population genetic history of the people of the Peloponnese and larger Greece before the changes which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. That's why, as I've already pointed out three times, they tested people in their 70s who also had all four grandparents from that area.

    If someone wants to do a test of all of Greece just going by residence or something, they're free to do that.
    Angela what Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer In 1836 saw in Peloponnese was people speaking Albanian....now how this study proves continuity....what is the evidence that should convince us. In 23 and me I get Peloponnese as highly likely match showing strong connection ....and many Albanian get that.

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_...yer/index.html

    Half trues are no trues....

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    Last edited by blevins13; 25-03-20 at 16:48.

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    OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

    I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

    There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

    You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

    I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

    I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

    There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

    You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

    I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.
    Maybe Albanians Too?!!!!
    Yes Angela, you are right I don’t understand,
    I do not get anything from the Sicily or Calabria in 23 and Me, even that emigration was more recent compared to Peloponnese.

    So why many Albanians get that due to certain enclaves....? In that case they should get the same thing from Sicily and Calabria right?


    Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer traveller, journalist, politician and historian for Albanians he described what he saw.


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    Why would an Albanian in Albania get matches to Sicilians? Albanians in gedmatch get Tuscan matches too, and I can get Albanians, which makes sense because on PCAs Albanians look like eastern and slightly more southern Tuscans.

    The only Albanians who would look slightly or a lot "Sicilian" like, depending on the amount of admixture with natives, would be ALBANIAN ITALIANS, i.e. Italians of Albanian ancestry. It has nothing to do with any other Albanian group.

    I told you I KNOW there were Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese. It doesn't matter for the purposes of this study because their descendants weren't tested. Testing people in their 70s and looking at their four grandparents from the same part of the Peloponnese would tell you things like that.

    As for the mass of the modern population of the Peloponnese, sure, some Albanian admixture is possible. It's NOT going to change their genomes drastically. If anything, it may make them a little less Mycenaean like.

    Look, we're all quarantined to one extent or another. Use the time to read some texts on population genetics and then re-examine all these things. You're not going to understand it until you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

    I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

    There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

    You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

    I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.
    My experience as an observer of various models, calculators, etc. is that modern Peloponnesians vary from the more NW shifted (close to Albania, West Greek Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Italy) to more Southern shifted in the case of Tsakonians, Maniots who are much closer to Abruzzo, East Sicily, etc.

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    I have one question why are South Tsakonians and Maniots, despite being of being both Laconians and the ''purest'' population in Peloponnese the least related to each other than to other Peloponnesians?
    https://media.springernature.com/ful..._Fig1_HTML.jpg


    Shouldn't they be closer to each other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

    I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

    There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

    You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

    I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.
    It is quite unbelievable that this paper made it through peer review because it simply does not verify its hypothesis. Modern population not resembling North Slavs absolutely does not mean that Slavs did not overwhelm the region in the Middle Ages.

    The whole paper is built on the obviously wrong assumption that absolutely nothing has happened in the Peloponnese from the 6th to the 19th century (even completely ignoring what Fallmerayer himself said about this period). Maybe the peer reivew panel did not include historians. Still, it is very disappointing to see these claims published.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mals View Post
    It is quite unbelievable that this paper made it through peer review because it simply does not verify its hypothesis. Modern population not resembling North Slavs absolutely does not mean that Slavs did not overwhelm the region in the Middle Ages.

    The whole paper is built on the obviously wrong assumption that absolutely nothing has happened in the Peloponnese from the 6th to the 19th century (even completely ignoring what Fallmerayer himself said about this period). Maybe the peer reivew panel did not include historians. Still, it is very disappointing to see these claims published.
    I agree that Slavs were not Ukranian-like by the time they reached Macedonia.
    Peloponnesians are still closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarians (it would be very useful if this paper addressed it though, just to be sure). Your opinion has been said by several others here, no need to repeat the drama.

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    Fallmerayer claimed a lot of nonsense with out any statistical evidence,based on his preconceived notions that he had before he even stepped a foot in Greece.
    He also claimed earlier that Peloponnese was settled by Slavs. Fallmerayer claimed that Peloponnese was settled by Albanians, but the census 40 years later found that Arvanites were 20-30 000 in a Population of 500 000. And Again Arvanaites doesnt mean Albanians. They were always Bilingual as bilingual were as the Greeks of South Albania from where they came from. Fluent in Greek that they used for all official purposes but also speakers of some Tosk creole too. Vice versa many Albanian muslims in Epirus were speakers of greek, thus Ali pasha made Greek the official language of his state. Either way, those 23 and me dont really mean what you think they mean. At least it is very unlikely. What is very likely is that the algorithm is matching your admixtures ratio with those of Peloponnese, as they are the closest to your results, and that because there isnt a sufficient database on Albania. All Gedmatch Eurogenes breakdowns will tell you the same thing. A single population approximation would be some Southern Greek population, taking in mind the differences between kosovars and south Albanians, unless someone puts in the database other Albanian profiles.
    What's your K13 breakdown? I bet it's ll be very close to the Peloponnese admixtures.

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    Fallmeyer was not a scientist and he was not a statistician and neither was he a historian. Even Herodotus has been doubted and he did not have an agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I agree that Slavs were not Ukranian-like by the time they reached Macedonia.
    Peloponnesians are still closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarians (it would be very useful if this paper addressed it though, just to be sure). Your opinion has been said by several others here, no need to repeat the drama.
    Slavs reached the Outskirts of Macedonia, few decades after they crossed the Danube.
    The wars against the slavs started, and the end of their free roaming ended soon afterwards.Slavs from there after remained in the Balkan interior. After the initial push back and securing the borders, what ever Slavs managed to snick into the Greek space, they were dealt with forced relocation in deep Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Fallmerayer claimed a lot of nonsense with out any statistical evidence,based on his preconceived notions that he had before he even stepped a foot in Greece.
    He also claimed earlier that Peloponnese was settled by Slavs. Fallmerayer claimed that Peloponnese was settled by Albanians, but the census 40 years later found that Arvanites were 20-30 000 in a Population of 500 000. And Again Arvanaites doesnt mean Albanians. They were always Bilingual as bilingual were as the Greeks of South Albania from where they came from. Fluent in Greek that they used for all official purposes but also speakers of some Tosk creole too. Vice versa many Albanian muslims in Epirus were speakers of greek, thus Ali pasha made Greek the official language of his state. Either way, those 23 and me dont really mean what you think they mean. At least it is very unlikely. What is very likely is that the algorithm is matching your admixtures ratio with those of Peloponnese, as they are the closest to your results, and that because there isnt a sufficient database on Albania. All Gedmatch Eurogenes breakdowns will tell you the same thing. A single population approximation would be some Southern Greek population, taking in mind the differences between kosovars and south Albanians, unless someone puts in the database other Albanian profiles.
    What's your K13 breakdown? I bet it's ll be very close to the Peloponnese admixtures.
    No Peloponnese in this breakdown:

    K 13
    1 Greek_Thessaly 3.63
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.98
    3 Central_Greek 6.99
    MDLP is a bit better but you can see the proximity between the Peloponnese/Thessaly/Southern Albanian in this calc.
    K 23
    1 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 2.05
    2 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 2.07
    3 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 2.94

    G 25
    0.02160412 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02524797 Albanian
    0.02790092 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02822096 Italian_Marche
    0.03129597 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03157852 Italian_Molise
    0.03232864 Italian_Tuscany

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    No Peloponnese in this breakdown:

    K 13
    1 Greek_Thessaly 3.63
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.98
    3 Central_Greek 6.99
    MDLP is a bit better but you can see the proximity between the Peloponnese/Thessaly/Southern Albanian in this calc.
    K 23
    1 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 2.05
    2 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 2.07
    3 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 2.94

    G 25
    0.02160412 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02524797 Albanian
    0.02790092 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02822096 Italian_Marche
    0.03129597 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03157852 Italian_Molise
    0.03232864 Italian_Tuscany
    The G25 Peloponnesian sample is pretty South shifted compared to the Gedmatch Peloponnesian samples.

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    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why would an Albanian in Albania get matches to Sicilians? Albanians in gedmatch get Tuscan matches too, and I can get Albanians, which makes sense because on PCAs Albanians look like eastern and slightly more southern Tuscans.

    The only Albanians who would look slightly or a lot "Sicilian" like, depending on the amount of admixture with natives, would be ALBANIAN ITALIANS, i.e. Italians of Albanian ancestry. It has nothing to do with any other Albanian group.

    I told you I KNOW there were Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese. It doesn't matter for the purposes of this study because their descendants weren't tested. Testing people in their 70s and looking at their four grandparents from the same part of the Peloponnese would tell you things like that.

    As for the mass of the modern population of the Peloponnese, sure, some Albanian admixture is possible. It's NOT going to change their genomes drastically. If anything, it may make them a little less Mycenaean like.

    Look, we're all quarantined to one extent or another. Use the time to read some texts on population genetics and then re-examine all these things. You're not going to understand it until you do.
    After we have seen this:

    IMG_3951.jpg


    You support this “study” of the past based on modern population.......come one.
    The only way to be sure is to dig graves...urban and rural.....but you know this so why you support something without conclusive evidence. i am sensing a little conflict of interest here.

    I still can’t explain my strong connection to Peloponnese and not to Sicily due to few Albanian enclaves. The logic should apply the same.



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