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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    After we have seen this:

    Attachment 11897


    You support this “study” of the past based on modern population.......come one.
    The only way to be sure is to dig graves...urban and rural.....but you know this so why you support something without conclusive evidence. i am sensing a little conflict of interest here.

    I still can’t explain my strong connection to Peloponnese and not to Sicily due to few Albanian enclaves. The logic should apply the same.



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    Cause:
    a)Arbereshe should be substantially different from South Albanians and especially North Albanians if we assume by their Y-dna numbers also correspond to an autosomal admixture.
    Why would you match with them specifically?


    b)Why would you match to Sicily in general?
    the highlighted chart below (although Albanian numbers are the national averages you can take an educated guess based on the Kosovar numbers that Baltic drops as you go southwards) indicate why not.
    N.Atlantic baltic West Med west asian East Med Red Sea South Asian East Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast African Sub-Saharan
    Sicily 17.68 6.57 21.64 15.48 29.89 5.54 0.51 0.34 0.31 0.2 0.34 0.72 0.78
    Greek_Peloponnese 18.56 14.36 21.06 15.04 24.24 5.05 0 0.57 0.29 0.28 0.17 0 0.32
    Albanian 21.07 17.56 23.81 11.15 23.81 1.62 0.25 0.07 0.15 0.13 0.17 0 0

    c) (guessing here) 23 and Me matches are based on number of samples you match in the 200 years ''relatives''

    What it should perplex you more and most Albanians that taken the test who showed similar results, isn't why you match with Peloponnese (A) , but why you dont match better with the Albanian regions (B) .
    ecvefvcefr.jpg
    If we take the maps on face value in accordance to your line of thinking, then the movement of population cannot be from Albania to Greece, but from Greece to the Albania region you live carrying Peloponesian DNA to Albania and that movement occurred in the last 200 years.

    How else could you explain them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I have one question why are South Tsakonians and Maniots, despite being of being both Laconians and the ''purest'' population in Peloponnese the least related to each other than to other Peloponnesians?
    https://media.springernature.com/ful..._Fig1_HTML.jpg


    Shouldn't they be closer to each other?
    The depiction you should be looking is this.
    What ever Diversity seems to be with in the group.
    sdx.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    No Peloponnese in this breakdown:

    K 13
    1 Greek_Thessaly 3.63
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.98
    3 Central_Greek 6.99
    MDLP is a bit better but you can see the proximity between the Peloponnese/Thessaly/Southern Albanian in this calc.
    K 23
    1 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 2.05
    2 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 2.07
    3 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 2.94

    G 25
    0.02160412 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02524797 Albanian
    0.02790092 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02822096 Italian_Marche
    0.03129597 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03157852 Italian_Molise
    0.03232864 Italian_Tuscany
    That was directed to the Albanian guy, i dont know my reply was attached elsewhere, but to comment on your post.
    Some K13 versions and some calculators in general have neither Peloponnese or South Albania as populations.
    I was suggesting he compare his Eurogenes K13 results manually (or visually if you prefer).
    The ''glitch'' of 23&Me could be caused by many different factors. You could only know decisively once you know exactly what they mean by ''relatives in the last 200 years'' and how they match them. One possible explanation is that it has to do with the volume of samples that match yours admixturewise per region. Peloponese being a bigger and more populous (and in better economic shape) than the regions of Albania, could have much more matching samples of the specific admixture combination than any of the dozen or so regions of Albania of 23&me. That the tested Albanians dont seem to have as many ''relatives in the last 200 years'' from the Albanian regions, seems to suggest that too. But who knows.

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    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Cause:
    a)Arbereshe should be substantially different from South Albanians and especially North Albanians if we assume by their Y-dna numbers also correspond to an autosomal admixture.
    Why would you match with them specifically?


    b)Why would you match to Sicily in general?
    the highlighted chart below (although Albanian numbers are the national averages you can take an educated guess based on the Kosovar numbers that Baltic drops as you go southwards) indicate why not.
    N.Atlantic baltic West Med west asian East Med Red Sea South Asian East Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast African Sub-Saharan
    Sicily 17.68 6.57 21.64 15.48 29.89 5.54 0.51 0.34 0.31 0.2 0.34 0.72 0.78
    Greek_Peloponnese 18.56 14.36 21.06 15.04 24.24 5.05 0 0.57 0.29 0.28 0.17 0 0.32
    Albanian 21.07 17.56 23.81 11.15 23.81 1.62 0.25 0.07 0.15 0.13 0.17 0 0

    c) (guessing here) 23 and Me matches are based on number of samples you match in the 200 years ''relatives''

    What it should perplex you more and most Albanians that taken the test who showed similar results, isn't why you match with Peloponnese (A) , but why you dont match better with the Albanian regions (B) .
    ecvefvcefr.jpg
    If we take the maps on face value in accordance to your line of thinking, then the movement of population cannot be from Albania to Greece, but from Greece to the Albania region you live carrying Peloponesian DNA to Albania and that movement occurred in the last 200 years.

    How else could you explain them?
    I don’t explain it.....but I can speculate about it like the author did in his paper, explaining the past based on modern population.

    But wait mines are not speculation because they are based on different historical sources.
    These sources say that there was a movement of Albanians to Peloponnese around 1300 and it seems bigger than that toward Sicily and Calabria around 1500.

    If this is your test in 23 and me I would say that your are connected to people that came from Kelmendi and Laberia. Also many Kosovar get similar results, which probably relates all to Kelmendi.



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    Last edited by blevins13; 26-03-20 at 20:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I don’t explain it.....but I can speculate about it like the author did in his paper, explaining the past based on modern population.

    But wait mines are not speculation because they are based on different historical sources.
    These sources say that there was a movement of Albanians to Peloponnese around 1300 and it seems bigger than that toward Sicily and Calabria around 1500.

    If this is your test in 23 and me I would say that your are connected to people that came from Kelmendi and Laberia. Also many Kosovar get similar results, which probably relates all to Kelmendi.



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    No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
    The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
    r4r4er.jpg
    Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.

    What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
    For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.

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    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
    The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
    r4r4er.jpg
    Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.

    What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
    For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.
    So you are saying that numerous Muslim Albanians ( Turk-Alvani), left Peloponnesus around 1820 and were settled in Hiterland of Shkodra and Vlora....provide some reference for that.....I consider this scenario remote and less influential than the movement of Albanian highlanders after Black Death to Peloponnesus that is referenced from different historians. Considering the devastation of Black Death in Greek urban areas the Albanian Pastorals were less affected and this seems more probable.


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    There is absolutely no historical record of even a small population of Peloponnesian Greeks in Kosovo or North Albania, where many Albanians who do 23andme show up as having likely matches in the Peloponnese.

    Whereas there are countless historical sources that attest to the Peloponnese having among the highest Arvanite settlements in all of Greece, some sources cite as much as ~40-50% Arvanite population.

    It is clear here what is happening.

    It is Peloponnesian Greeks that have Albanian admixture, not Kosovo and North Albanians that have "Greek" admixture.

    This is irresponsible from 23andme.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    There is absolutely no historical record of even a small population of Peloponnesian Greeks in Kosovo or North Albania, where many Albanians who do 23andme show up as having likely matches in the Peloponnese.
    Whereas there are countless historical sources that attest to the Peloponnese having among the highest Arvanite settlements in all of Greece, some sources cite as much as ~40-50% Arvanite population.
    It is clear here what is happening.
    It is Peloponnesian Greeks that have Albanian admixture, not Kosovo and North Albanians that have "Greek" admixture.
    This is irresponsible from 23andme.
    Arvanites in 19th century were 15% of the Early Greek state 12.5% of Peloponesse and 3.7% of overall Greek population excluding Northern mainland and rural zones so around 4% to 5% in total. In 15th century in Peloponnese Arvanites were around 30% to 40% according to Ottoman census.

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    A lot of Albanians must have been absorbed into the Peloponnesian populations, if their numbers were higher in earlier times. In ethnographic/linguistic maps there were large Greek-speaking areas and specific Arvanite areas, like in Argolis. Why did Arvanites remain distinct in certain areas and not in others?

    When it comes to Slavic admixture in Greece, it appears some are trying to rationalize the data and argue that Slavs were already heavily mixed with Balkan populations when they settled in Greece. I don’t think we know that answer. Greeks are not genetically very close to Balkan Slavs. It would seem that if Slavs were heavily mixed with Balkan populations, Greeks would be close to those populations, but looking at various maps they’re not that close. That implies that Slavic settlements had less impact in Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    A lot of Albanians must have been absorbed into the Peloponnesian populations, if their numbers were higher in earlier times. In ethnographic/linguistic maps there were large Greek-speaking areas and specific Arvanite areas, like in Argolis. Why did Arvanites remain distinct in certain areas and not in others?

    When it comes to Slavic admixture in Greece, it appears some are trying to rationalize the data and argue that Slavs were already heavily mixed with Balkan populations when they settled in Greece. I don’t think we know that answer. Greeks are not genetically very close to Balkan Slavs. It would seem that if Slavs were heavily mixed with Balkan populations, Greeks would be close to those populations, but looking at various maps they’re not that close. That implies that Slavic settlements had less impact in Greece.
    Some Albanians did exchange their language with modern Greek during the centuries however some Albanians did leave Peloponnese for South Italy which reduced their number in Peloponnese, to what extend is another question. The population of Peloponnese was 200,000 in 17th century which indicates that most Arvanites stayed.

    Albanians in Samos adopted the Greek language in late 18th century. Tsakonians did also adopt modern Greek too which reduced the number of Tsakonian speakers by the 19th century, this fact however seems reasonable for many but the Albanian version not.

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    I agree. I believe a portion of the Arvanite or Greek Albanian population fully assimilated and really never considered themselves distinct. I do believe based on recent 23 and Me results as well as the G 25 calculator that I’m somewhere in the vicinity of 25% Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Arvanites in 19th century were 15% of the Early Greek state 12.5% of Peloponesse and 3.7% of overall Greek population excluding Northern mainland and rural zones so around 4% to 5% in total. In 15th century in Peloponnese Arvanites were around 30% to 40% according to Ottoman census.

    Here is a real census from the 19th century and not Albanian hot air.
    It is around 3% of the Early (and small) Greek state, and around 4% in Peloponnese. Their Numbers will remain the same for the 30-40 years, when the settlement of Refugees and mass Education would favorite Greek.
    4rf4ef4r.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Here is a real census from the 19th century and not Albanian hot air.
    It is around 3% of the Early (and small) Greek state, and around 4% in Peloponnese. Their Numbers will remain the same for the 30-40 years, when the settlement of Refugees and mass Education would favorite Greek.
    r42fr44.jpg
    Do you seriously think that Greek census is reliable?

    This doesn't look 3% to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Do you seriously think that Greek census is reliable?

    This doesn't look 3% to me.
    That's just dots on the map some person drew 150 years later, for god knows why.
    Arvanites were recorded in census going back 150 years. ALL other estimations are based on the TOTAL population of the areas they lived. Which i call wishful thinking

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    This paper is superficial, no depth, no evidence. This concludes my argument here.


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    Wow guess that map confirms the Albanian connection.My maternal grandfather was from Aetos Messinia and his father was the mayor in the late 1800’s. No family member ever mentioned this to me.

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    Any data on this, like Y-DNA percentages of Tsakonians and Maniots?

    Autosomally i have heard Tsakonians and Maniots to be very Southern European, not influenced by Slavic migration at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Any data on this, like Y-DNA percentages of Tsakonians and Maniots?

    Autosomally i have heard Tsakonians and Maniots to be very Southern European, not influenced by Slavic migration at all.
    Yes from all accounts and results I’ve seen that’s true. Deep Mani was essentially impenetrable to post 6th C Slav incursion and the Slavs (Melengi) were situated in the more accessible regions of Laconia. The Eastern Tsakonians in the Parnon Mountains of (now) Arcadia were also pretty isolated. The Tsakonian and Maniot results seem to be on par with Southern Italians/Eastern Sicilians so yes much more Southern Med Europe than other mainland Greeks which may pull either NW or NE.

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    Haven't read all the posts here but I find it problematic the paper didn't attempt any comparisons with the neighbouring Slavophone populations: North Macedonians and Bulgarians. Was there any follow-up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Haven't read all the posts here but I find it problematic the paper didn't attempt any comparisons with the neighbouring Slavophone populations: North Macedonians and Bulgarians. Was there any follow-up?
    We may be able to make inferences from a few other studies, including one with some of the same authors as this study (Neolithic maritime colonization of Europe). In the maritime study Peloponnesians seem close to “East Rumelia” (south Bulgaria location) but more distant from Serbians (also the case in a Crete study).

    Hopefully someday we will get south Balkan genetic results from after the Mycenaeans and before the Slavic invasions. At least two studies indicate modern south Balkans populations have significant/substantial descent from Anatolian Neolithic farmers. We really don’t know what we’ll find but I’d be surprised if the missing samples deviate very much from the Neolithic farmers.

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    The Maniots used in this study strongly overlap with Abruzzes with one being really close to Sicilians and Myceneans. But Abruzzes are really close to Sicilians too.

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    No modern population has ancestry identical to the ancient Greeks, but for both ancient Peloponnesians and Mycenaeans the closest appear to be southern Italians and European Jews. I don't know if the greater proximity is due to historical facts like Magna Grecia or convergence of ancestry by other factors. I believe that there is ancient Greek ancestry in southern Italy.

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean ( Ancient )
    0.04621749 Italian_Calabria
    0.04809301 Italian_Campania
    0.04995337 Italian_Apulia
    0.04999662 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05085840 Sicilian_East
    0.05100394 Greek_Kos
    0.05364142 Italian_Jew
    0.05422889 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05499403 Italian_Molise
    0.05550306 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.05562459 Greek_Crete
    0.05592334 Greek_Izmir
    0.05626353 Maltese
    0.05656291 Italian_Lazio
    0.05678297 Romaniote_Jew
    0.05702418 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.05864657 Sicilian_West
    0.05865498 Italian_Umbria
    0.05947326 Sephardic_Jew
    0.06132962 Italian_Marche
    0.06302862 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.06323593 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.06498286 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.06505373 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.06516680 Cypriot
    0.06542563 French_Corsica
    0.06565813 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.06637160 Italian_Tuscany
    0.07008550 Greek_Central_Anatolia

    Distance to: GRC_Peloponnese_N ( ancient )
    0.07906802 Sardinian
    0.10066285 Italian_Jew
    0.10100808 Italian_Campania
    0.10105324 Italian_Calabria
    0.10258457 Italian_Apulia
    0.10324413 Romaniote_Jew
    0.10340779 Sicilian_East
    0.10353597 Italian_Basilicata
    0.10391238 Greek_Kos
    0.10437045 Italian_Lazio
    0.10610497 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.10633783 Sephardic_Jew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
    The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
    r4r4er.jpg
    Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.

    What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
    For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.
    Haha hilarious stuff, north albania is the least mixed place in all of Europe.

    If you want to talk about mixed go look at the state of Greek y dna, as far as I can tell Greece suffered a lot from ottoman era genetically. I would also say some of the albanian & especially slavic y dna in greece is from ottoman deployment because it simply has too much to be logical

    There is no such thing as turkoalbanian, Albanians spread their y dna in Turkey (because they were taken there) not the other way round, most albanians are too racist to mix with others

    Autosomal dna means nothing because it comes from women too and Muslim women from middle east were shared around in ottoman era, only thing you need to be concerned with is y dna because that is what makes a country/race

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    ^^Rarely have I heard such nonsense. It's also nonsense which is totally off topic. This is not a thread for prolonged analysis of Albanian genetics.

    Now, this is too important a thread to close, so some of you are going to be silenced if you don't stop posting a-scientific drivel and take your disputes to the Balkan thread dedicated to your fraternal fights.

    I am also considering just deleting all these Albanian genetics posts, so if you want to preserve them, do it now, and post on the appropriate threads.

    Posts with nonsense about identity being tied only to the y chromosome will be among the first to go.

    Last warning.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Rarely have I heard such nonsense. It's also nonsense which is totally off topic. This is not a thread for prolonged analysis of Albanian genetics.

    Now, this is too important a thread to close, so some of you are going to be silenced if you don't stop posting a-scientific drivel and take your disputes to the Balkan thread dedicated to your fraternal fights.

    I am also considering just deleting all these Albanian genetics posts, so if you want to preserve them, do it now, and post on the appropriate threads.

    Posts with nonsense about identity being tied only to the y chromosome will be among the first to go.

    Last warning.
    I apologise but you cant allow people to make false claims when we have dna tests now. Words like "turkoalbanian" shouldn't be allowed especially when aimed at North albanians - it is scientifically proven false BS, utterly ridiculous

    A lot of greeks today look like this guy and try to ignore their history and the history of others -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbqdEna2Ww

    Genetics can tell us more about our past than most other things can as most history was written from different points of view and some people did not care for writing so history is skewed, not to mention there was pillaging, thieves etc. Y dna is relevant because it was mostly men who moved around and decided how things should be instead of women. But yes, in modern age it is different

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