Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 32 of 36 FirstFirst ... 223031323334 ... LastLast
Results 776 to 800 of 877

Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #776
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,193


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Parapolitikos: one more stupid t-rolling comment from you against Albanians and you're going to go to sleep for a long time.

    Any more off topic comments and I'll temporarily close the thread and remove as many as I have the patience to do.

    I also don't want to see any more sexist b.s. that the only thing that matters is the y chromosome for identity.

    Am I clear?

    Now don't ruin today for those of us who celebrate it. Have some consideration and civility.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #777
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    149

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    The Tsakonians appear to be interesting. They are separated from the Peloponnesian cluster in the PC map, in which Deep Mani occupies the southern end. It is said or theorized somewhere that Tsakonians came to Arcadia from east Laconia, escaping some invasion and bringing their Doric dialect with them. But Deep Mani, also in Laconia and historically considered to be different than the rest of the Peloponnese (Mani was another refuge for Greeks escaping invasions), is quite different than Tsakonians. So maybe Tsakonians are indigenous in east Arcadia and a different “tribe” of Greek speakers than the Deep Mani ancestors?
    4AD9E55C-1C23-4BB8-A37B-BD331FF08D6C.jpg
    Last edited by Ralphie Boy; 24-12-20 at 22:37.

  3. #778
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    20-11-20
    Posts
    4


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Henrique View Post
    No modern population has ancestry identical to the ancient Greeks, but for both ancient Peloponnesians and Mycenaeans the closest appear to be southern Italians and European Jews. I don't know if the greater proximity is due to historical facts like Magna Grecia or convergence of ancestry by other factors. I believe that there is ancient Greek ancestry in southern Italy.
    I think this is mostly due to with their ancestral components' percentages being similar after PCA analysis. It doesn't necessarily mean recent common heritage. Lots of Greeks and Italians plot close to Ashkenazi Jews but score 0% Ashkenazi on 23andMe and MyHeritage (which have a lot of Ashkenazis in their databases). We do share neolithic ancestry for sure, but ethnic groupings like Jews, Romans, etc came later.

  4. #779
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    20-11-20
    Posts
    4


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    A lot of greeks today look like this guy and try to ignore their history and the history of others -
    I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.

  5. #780
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    159


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.
    I didn't say there is anything wrong with it but you have to say he doesn't look "european", we need to understand from you greeks what did the ancient greeks look like because you can't seem to decide. For me, that guy looks typical middle eastern and you will find a lot similar in turkey because the history of the ottoman is a continuation of the islamic caliphates before it. They spoke arabic and persian as did most of the middle east by that point so migration from middle east would have been quite common, especially in terms of joining their "army"

    Which would you say are the true original Greek y dna that have carried into today?
    Don't forget greeks and persians share a history of j2a so with that you have to be careful when deciding which sub clades in greeks today are carried from ancient greeks and which are from possible ottoman settlement/deployment

  6. #781
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    149

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.
    I agree, he has a look that is seen among Greeks. Most Greeks are not very close to Middle Easterners as far as I have seen, but there is a little overlap between the Aegean Turkish coast and Peloponnese, in this study. The authors argue that Asia Minor people were not brought in to replace Greeks who might have disappeared by the time the Slavs settled in the Peloponnese.
    321ADFA9-C2B2-40B3-8AC1-04BB540290EA.jpg

  7. #782
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    586


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    The Tsakonians appear to be interesting. They are separated from the Peloponnesian cluster in the PC map, in which Deep Mani occupies the southern end. It is said or theorized somewhere that Tsakonians came to Arcadia from east Laconia, escaping some invasion and bringing their Doric dialect with them. But Deep Mani, also in Laconia and historically considered to be different than the rest of the Peloponnese (Mani was another refuge for Greeks escaping invasions), is quite different than Tsakonians. So maybe Tsakonians are indigenous in east Arcadia and a different “tribe” of Greek speakers than the Deep Mani ancestors?
    4AD9E55C-1C23-4BB8-A37B-BD331FF08D6C.jpg
    PCAs are not meant to be taken 100% literally all the time. In amatuer calculators Tsakonians are similar to Maniotes.
    All old Greek tribes were strongly related to each other IMO. Unless they were mixed with something else like Anatolians.
    Sicilians, in that PCA overlap with Taygetos.
    In the Cretan study, Maniotes and Tsakonians fill the gap by overlapping with Abruzzes, Apulians (I suspect even though they are missing) and northernmost Sicilians.

  8. #783
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    123


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    I agree, he has a look that is seen among Greeks. Most Greeks are not very close to Middle Easterners as far as I have seen, but there is a little overlap between the Aegean Turkish coast and Peloponnese, in this study. The authors argue that Asia Minor people were not brought in to replace Greeks who might have disappeared by the time the Slavs settled in the Peloponnese.
    321ADFA9-C2B2-40B3-8AC1-04BB540290EA.jpg


    The only Greek populations close to Middle Easterners are those in Anatolia and Caucasus regions. It's Greek as a cultural identity although there is evidence that those same populations have shared Greek genetic ties.Eastern Aegean Islanders can show up with a Levantine (Druze for instance)population in their top 20, however, it's pretty remote. Cypriots vary as well some shifting towards the Levant others toward the Dodacanese Islands.

  9. #784
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    123


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I didn't say there is anything wrong with it but you have to say he doesn't look "european", we need to understand from you greeks what did the ancient greeks look like because you can't seem to decide. For me, that guy looks typical middle eastern and you will find a lot similar in turkey because the history of the ottoman is a continuation of the islamic caliphates before it. They spoke arabic and persian as did most of the middle east by that point so migration from middle east would have been quite common, especially in terms of joining their "army"
    Which would you say are the true original Greek y dna that have carried into today?
    Don't forget greeks and persians share a history of j2a so with that you have to be careful when deciding which sub clades in greeks today are carried from ancient greeks and which are from possible ottoman settlement/deployment
    First of all I'm not a big fan of phenotypic analysis because it's so subjective and can be absurd at times but physiognomy within the Greek population varies drastically. "Greek" is and has always been a cultural identity first so it's difficult to compare the genetic identity of someone from Greek Cappadocia with someone from say Greek Epirus (extreme distance).Likewise when were talking phenotypes the same could be said about "typical regional" looks. Albanians are obviously more homogeneous because there wasn't ever any sort of Albanian cultural expansion.As far as 'looking Euro" that's a pretty absurd notion.

  10. #785
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,249

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    First of all I'm not a big fan of phenotypic analysis because it's so subjective and can be absurd at times but physiognomy within the Greek population varies drastically. "Greek" is and has always been a cultural identity first so it's difficult to compare the genetic identity of someone from Greek Cappadocia with someone from say Greek Epirus (extreme distance).Likewise when were talking phenotypes the same could be said about "typical regional" looks. Albanians are obviously more homogeneous because there wasn't ever any sort of Albanian cultural expansion.As far as 'looking Euro" that's a pretty absurd notion.
    It is very true. I have blond/blue eyed relatives on both sides of my family (my father, sister) and blond/ginger hair on my mother's side. But my mother, my other sister and I have dark hair/dark eyes and look Med. There are Cretans that have dark hair and blue eyes. Pontian Greeks tend to be have darker hair and eyes.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 03-01-21 at 21:19.

  11. #786
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    159


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    It is very true. I have blond/blue eyed relatives on both sides of my family (my father, sister) and blond/ginger hair on my mother's side. But my mother, my other sister and I have dark hair/dark eyes and look Med. There are Cretans that have dark hair and blue eyes. Pontian Greeks tend to be have darker hair and eyes.
    Which y dna have you found in your family so far?

    Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now

  12. #787
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    123


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
    Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now
    Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.

  13. #788
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,249

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
    Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now
    R1b-M269. I think that the ancient Greek invaders might have been a bit more light haired than the local Pelasgians but unless we get some DNA samples analyzed we might never know. Greece and the Eastern Balkans were invaded by a lot of different people including the Celts, Romans, Ostrogoths, Alans, Avars, Slavs, Bulgarians, etc. So there might a bit of a mixture. Then there were the Praetorian guards that were rewarded with land for faithful service.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 04-01-21 at 16:44.

  14. #789
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.
    How do you know that isn't more recent admixture, possibly Slavic? Which I think it a lot more probable, than suggesting that Neolithic people, especially from Greece, would have light features. Maybe EEF in the west of Europe with more WHG, may have had some blue eyes. But I doubt the Eastern European farmer could have had it commonly.

  15. #790
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
    Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now
    Yes, the academics working on the Mycenean paper from 2017 have concluded that. I think most people have already assumed that as well.

    You have yet to see evidence? Have you missed the paper?

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

  16. #791
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
    Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now
    I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.

  17. #792
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.
    FWIW, most Greeks have shifted relatively less than Bulgarians, from their original position on the PCA.

  18. #793
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    123


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    How do you know that isn't more recent admixture, possibly Slavic? Which I think it a lot more probable, than suggesting that Neolithic people, especially from Greece, would have light features. Maybe EEF in the west of Europe with more WHG, may have had some blue eyes. But I doubt the Eastern European farmer could have had it commonly.
    Never said that Neolithics in Greece had light hair, light eyes I realize the consensus is that they were dark haired/dark eyed but do we really know what they looked like? it's all based on simulation. Based on those same simulations WHG were actually darker (in terms of skin tone) than Early Farmers right?

  19. #794
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Never said that Neolithics in Greece had light hair, light eyes I realize the consensus is that they were dark haired/dark eyed but do we really know what they looked like? it's all based on simulation. Based on those same simulations WHG were actually darker (in terms of skin tone) than Early Farmers right?
    Yes, WHGs did have dark skin according to what they found with Cheddar man.

  20. #795
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    439

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.
    I think the Illyrians from Albania will be similar to Maniots/Tsakonians probably, or Central-Southern Italians, autosomally i mean.

  21. #796
    Banned
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    475


    Country: Cuba



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I think the Illyrians from Albania will be similar to Maniots/Tsakonians probably, or Central-Southern Italians, autosomally i mean.
    illyrians came from central Europe, Hungary-Romania area. Why should they be generically close to Peloponnesus. It makes more sense they were generically close to Romanians. I mean Bronx age Illyrians. As time went by they mixed as everyone did.

  22. #797
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,249

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Yes, the academics working on the Mycenean paper from 2017 have concluded that. I think most people have already assumed that as well.

    You have yet to see evidence? Have you missed the paper?

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310
    Isn't that based on just 4 samples?

  23. #798
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Isn't that based on just 4 samples?
    So what, the discovery of Denisovan, an entire branch of humanity, was based on a single tooth.

    Do you know of any other elite burials from the Mycenaean period?

  24. #799
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    FYI, the "Thracian" aka the Bulgarian_IA sample, we have is quite similar to that of the Mycenaeans as well.

  25. #800
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States





    Here it is from another angle, a few of the Mycenaeans are pulled upwards on the Z-axis towards CHG/IN sources, coinciding with the study.



    I5769 is the "Thracian"

Page 32 of 36 FirstFirst ... 223031323334 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •