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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    So what, the discovery of Denisovan, an entire branch of humanity, was based on a single tooth.

    Do you know of any other elite burials from the Mycenaean period?
    I am just saying that phenotypically you cannot make pronouncements about a whole race unless you have a few more samples. It's like me telling people that the men in my family is typically short based on my father's 5'5" stature when my grandfather was 6'1", I am 6'1" and my son is 6'4". Or typically blonde based on my father's blonde blue eyes when I am dark haired my mother was dark haired. I like to have a few more data points and talk in statistical terms.

    The other problem we have is that we only have "elite" Mycenean DNA. How representative is the elite of the underlying race. Are they just the strongest/tallest warriors but other than that they are genetically like the ruled? How numerous were the Greeks vis a vis the locals? Did the elite Greeks/Myceneans mix with the locals (whether elite or common locals)? Did the common Greeks mix with the common locals. So many questions, so few samples. We need a lot more samples from before the Greeks came and also from after they came.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I am just saying that phenotypically you cannot make pronouncements about a whole race unless you have a few more samples. It's like me telling people that the men in my family is typically short based on my father's 5'5" stature when my grandfather was 6'1", I am 6'1" and my son is 6'4". Or typically blonde based on my father's blonde blue eyes when I am dark haired my mother was dark haired. I like to have a few more data points and talk in statistical terms.
    The other problem we have is that we only have "elite" Mycenean DNA. How representative is the elite of the underlying race. Are they just the strongest/tallest warriors but other than that they are genetically like the ruled? How numerous were the Greeks vis a vis the locals? Did the elite Greeks/Myceneans mix with the locals (whether elite or common locals)? Did the common Greeks mix with the common locals. So many questions, so few samples. We need a lot more samples from before the Greeks came and also from after they came.
    I see, I feel the same way in regards to phenotype. My family has some atypical looking people as well. My uncle is 6"3, I'm 6"2, my grandfather was over 6 feet. I think height has a lot to do with diet, as well as environmental conditions. But genetics certainly plays a role. My grandfather said he wanted to marry my grandmother because she was the tallest woman he had seen in their village. That's a case of sexual selection at play. I think it is possible that some of the Myceneans could have been phenotypically lighter, while still being at their genetic proximity. There were light eyed people who had lived in the copper age Levant. They had a lot of CHG/IN-like & Anatolian_N DNA coming in at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.
    I don't think that original ancestors of Albanians were exactly like Bulgarian Iron Age, I think more like the Thracian + some northern Illyrian-like or northern Italian-like. Greeks have received more Slavic admixture than Albanians (higher Slavic Y-DNA) which brought them more north and closer to us.
    I don't view Slavic admixture as something negative at all though.

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    ^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I see, I feel the same way in regards to phenotype. My family has some atypical looking people as well. My uncle is 6"3, I'm 6"2, my grandfather was over 6 feet. I think height has a lot to do with diet, as well as environmental conditions. But genetics certainly plays a role. My grandfather said he wanted to marry my grandmother because she was the tallest woman he had seen in their village. That's a case of sexual selection at play. I think it is possible that some of the Myceneans could have been phenotypically lighter, while still being at their genetic proximity. There were light eyed people who had lived in the copper age Levant. They had a lot of CHG/IN-like & Anatolian_N DNA coming in at that time.
    My mother was 5'6" which was tall for Greeks of her generation but I don't think my father selected her for her stature. Actually all the eligible women in my town were already married after he returned from fighting in the Greek civil war and she was one of the very few left in a neighboring town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    My mother was 5'6" which was tall for Greeks of her generation but I don't think my father selected her for her stature. Actually all the eligible women in my town were already married after he returned from fighting in the Greek civil war and she was one of the very few left in a neighboring town.
    My other grandfather had a fiancé (idk if they were engaged actually) during the time he served in World War II. However, he left her some short time after the war, and met my grandmother. I guess he figured after surviving armed conflict, he is not going to settle for someone that isn't going to make him happy for the rest of his life. At any rate both my grandmother, and grandfather on my dad's side were not that tall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    I used to share your views! And in general is true! If you see Mexicans or Asians when they come to America is hard to believe there are such a small stature creatures. But I changed the view once I settled in USA. I saw Albanian people born and raised in USA that were even smaller in stature than Albanians of Albania(south). They had better skin, but not height. So it could be some instructions on their genes.
    This crass and unartfully crafted post is telling me that you are a t-roll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This crass and unartfully crafted post is telling me that you are a t-roll.
    Well, his username is quite sexist/trollish btw. It means: "I want vagina" in Albanian. Though i doubt this guy is even Albanian to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Well, his username is quite sexist/trollish btw. It means: "I want vagina" in Albanian. Though i doubt this guy is even Albanian to begin with.
    Thanks for the heads-up, he has been banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.
    G2a is quite relevant in middle/south italy too so it could be either Greek or Roman. What subclade did you get?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    R1b-M269. I think that the ancient Greek invaders might have been a bit more light haired than the local Pelasgians but unless we get some DNA samples analyzed we might never know. Greece and the Eastern Balkans were invaded by a lot of different people including the Celts, Romans, Ostrogoths, Alans, Avars, Slavs, Bulgarians, etc. So there might a bit of a mixture. Then there were the Praetorian guards that were rewarded with land for faithful service.
    Which subclade of R1b did you get? I don't know much about pelasgians but from what I have been told here ancient greeks were dark tonned and mostly carried j2a (and likely g2)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.
    If you look at St Nicholas (a Greek) born in 270AD
    https://youtu.be/KZ5smDu99Aw

    He is now believed to have been very dark tonned and goes in line with what experts on here are saying about ancient greeks being quite dark

    If you look at old paintings of south Slavs they weren't too light tonned, could be that most light tonned south Slavs today have german or proto central/balkan european ancestry. As you know almost half of their y dna isn't from Slavic invasion it's from the people who lived there before them (and a bit from after), mtdna will be even higher. Truly we will never know what the original south slavs looked like it is easy to guess they were light tonned but with their dna being so mixed now it's difficult to say - we have to look at their origins for some history there

    If you look kosova vs greece football team you see that about half the greeks are very dark tonned whereas kosova team maybe 1 out of 23, I would assume north albanians mostly have lighter features than south albanians from what I have seen but correct me if I'm wrong - could be that south Albanians visit the beach more. South Albanians have more Greek and south Slavic y dna but I would say some of their darker features are likely from Greek (or maybe Roman) input instead of south Slavs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuxx View Post
    ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?
    It's not just Albanians. I notice on 23andMe other Balkan nationalities (even Romanians) scoring Peloponnese as well. My first reaction is that the Peloponnesian samples are acting as a proxy for native Balkan ancestry in the rest of the Balkans, or something along those lines, but who knows....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
    Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now
    Greeks don't have "plenty" of Slavic dna about Albanian y dna its disputable how much they have.

    Mainland Greeks plot fairly close to Albanians but does that mean they are descended from Albanians?

    And scientifically its incorrect to talk about Albanian or Slavic dna anyway

    You rather talk about the dna of specified populations like the dna of Albanian,the dna of Slavs,the dna of Ancient Illyrians
    ,of Ancient Anatolians ect

    Most haplogroups were formed and existed at a time before any of todays ethno linguistical groups such as Slavs,Albanians existed!

    Talking about Greek dna would be more justified than Albanian or Slavic since Greeks as an ethno linguistical entity are much older
    than these two and their presence is much better documented but it would be still wrong from a scientific point of view
    Last edited by cybernautic; 10-03-21 at 13:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Which subclade of R1b did you get? I don't know much about pelasgians but from what I have been told here ancient greeks were dark tonned and mostly carried j2a (and likely g2)
    They were certainly darker than Northern Europeans
    but lighter than Egyptians

    If you mind reading Ancient Greek authors what they say about their own compared to foreigners
    its pretty clear there is not even need for discussion or overanalyzing PCA's common sense dictates
    that Ancient people looked more or less like how they described themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    They were certainly darker than Northern Europeans
    but lighter than Egyptians

    If you mind reading Ancient Greek authors what they say about their own compared to foreigners
    its pretty clear there is not even need for discussion or overanalyzing PCA's common sense dictates
    that Ancient people looked more or less like how they described themselves
    .
    Good advice @cybernautic

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I don't think that original ancestors of Albanians were exactly like Bulgarian Iron Age, I think more like the Thracian + some northern Illyrian-like or northern Italian-like. Greeks have received more Slavic admixture than Albanians (higher Slavic Y-DNA) which brought them more north and closer to us.
    I don't view Slavic admixture as something negative at all though.
    I don’t view it as negative either. There would be no modern Greece if not for many who were descended from Slavs, and Arvanites, who fought for Greece’s freedom against the Ottomans. I read that Arvanite women carried arms. These were some tough people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    This paper is superficial, no depth, no evidence. This concludes my argument here.
    Such are most of the arguments you brought here, most of all this one here^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    I don’t view it as negative either. There would be no modern Greece if not for many who were descended from Slavs, and Arvanites, who fought for Greece’s freedom against the Ottomans. I read that Arvanite women carried arms. These were some tough people.
    Sure it will be Greek Freedom, let not overweight the internal element, I believe the external one was decisive.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morea_expedition


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    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Such are most of the arguments you brought here, most of all this one here^
    Which one? It has be quite a while from the last time I posted here, since there hasn’t been any new evidence to argue over.


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    Last edited by blevins13; 11-03-21 at 15:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    @Angela
    Obviously every Greek settlement in Magna Graecia had an impact, but could not be held responsible for the genetic similarities between Greece and Italy. Like u said urself, the connection reaches back into the Neolithic and even farther, and we see a similar trend of population movements going on for centuries. It seems to be always the case that people from northern Balkans move south and from there to Italy.
    It doesn't necessarily, the earliest migrations in Balkans might have rather been from South upwards to the North.

    And the people who colonized Italy where Greeks not North Balkanians

    Even the ancient Greek and Roman mythology always claimed that several tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor, then we have the famous colonies of Magna Graecia, then we have the expulsion of Greeks by the Byzantine Empire forming the Griko minority, then the Turks influenced the same trend, followed even by the Albanians known as Arbereshe who had also settled in Greece for 3-4 centuries already, and so on.
    If tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor they weren't from North Balkans
    Neither Greece nor Asia Minor is in North Balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.
    I don’t see Slavic migration as negative either, after all they, goths, and Avars saved Albanian from complete romanization breaking the dominance of Roman rule in the Balkan.

    But to think otherwise is completely acceptable depending on the historical prospective.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.
    The amount of Slavic admixture though grows exponentially in some peoples imagination compared
    to what it is in reality

    At least when it comes to Greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
    You are painfully wrong. For starters. In the pelloponese, the total population of Turks (Muslims) was 42.750 before the revolution, not 100.000. After the revolution, the total Turkish Population of Greece was 0. This can be found in various sources. Such as the correspondence of the Greek leader Kapodistrias. The Arvanites of mainlanf peloponnese were at the time, according an extremely inaccurate estimate of Mr Philpson an outstanding 50.000 people in a population of 750.000 in the 1840s. This study was overblown, famously including the ten thousand Arvanites of Laconia. Which are even reosrested on maps! The only problem being. That according to mr Korilos, and the local Greeks, the only Arvanite village of the region had 706 people. No vlach settlement existed in the peloponnese. Only in Pindus. Finally. Modern Gedmatch results of the Greeks of Attica (a region etnirely inhabited by Arvanites) show the closest population to be Eastern Sicily. Peloponnese and Attica are the most distant Greek regions of Greece to albania. Genitally. This is a prove of Kostas Biris's theory, Who wrote in his famous and awarded book called "The Arvanites". That Modern Greek Arvanites, are Albanised local Hellines with some small and distant Arvanite heritage. Of you want to know more on this subject, I could kindly give you all the informations you want. This study is not only peer reviewed, but it Also proves the Greek continuity. It's normal, that people learn in Their schools about how great the ancient Greeks were. When they find themselves against modern Greeks in reality, as Many Turks, albanians, and Slavs have in the last centuries, they are being put in a position of hating something worthy of admiration. Poorly structured and debunked arguments are being used as a result, to legalise and justify morally this realtion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    You are painfully wrong. For starters. In the pelloponese, the total population of Turks (Muslims) was 42.750 before the revolution, not 100.000. After the revolution, the total Turkish Population of Greece was 0. This can be found in various sources. Such as the correspondence of the Greek leader Kapodistrias. The Arvanites of mainlanf peloponnese were at the time, according an extremely inaccurate estimate of Mr Philpson an outstanding 50.000 people in a population of 750.000 in the 1840s. This study was overblown, famously including the ten thousand Arvanites of Laconia. Which are even reosrested on maps! The only problem being. That according to mr Korilos, and the local Greeks, the only Arvanite village of the region had 706 people. No vlach settlement existed in the peloponnese. Only in Pindus. Finally. Modern Gedmatch results of the Greeks of Attica (a region etnirely inhabited by Arvanites) show the closest population to be Eastern Sicily. Peloponnese and Attica are the most distant Greek regions of Greece to albania. Genitally. This is a prove of Kostas Biris's theory, Who wrote in his famous and awarded book called "The Arvanites". That Modern Greek Arvanites, are Albanised local Hellines with some small and distant Arvanite heritage. Of you want to know more on this subject, I could kindly give you all the informations you want. This study is not only peer reviewed, but it Also proves the Greek continuity. It's normal, that people learn in Their schools about how great the ancient Greeks were. When they find themselves against modern Greeks in reality, as Many Turks, albanians, and Slavs have in the last centuries, they are being put in a position of hating something worthy of admiration. Poorly structured and debunked arguments are being used as a result, to legalise and justify morally this realtion.
    The Central Greek sample in Gedmatch is a mixed islander with mainlander not an actual Arvanite from Attica if that's what you are talking about.
    Arvanites were 12% in Peloponnese in 1890.

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