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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The Central Greek sample in Gedmatch is a mixed islander with mainlander not an actual Arvanite from Attica if that's what you are talking about.
    Arvanites were 12% in Peloponnese in 1890.
    I am not talking about the Central_Greek on Gedmatch. There is a different category called Greek_Attica. A sample collected From an inhabitant with full ancestry From Attica, a region with high degrees of endogamy. The sample was extremely close to Eastern Sicily. The center of Greek colonisation. Arvanites in the pelloponese weren't 12%. A German demographer, Alfred Philpson, who hardly visited the pelloponese reported this number in 1888. He reported 90.000 out of a Population of 730.000. On the same year. An Athenian academic, Mr Korilos published his detailed census of the peloponnese, having visited the Arvanite villages one by one. The mistakes of Philpson were truly unbelievable. He even claimed my own Laconian village, was Arvanite speaking! Funny enough, the elders of my village, born a few decades after his research, told me their parents and grandparents didn't speak Arvanite. In fact Mr Korilos's report showed 50.000 Arvanites in mainland pelloponese. And 20.000 in two little islands (they were historically densely populated). In fact, the Actual number, of Arvanite descent in the pelloponese is extremely small. The same German ethnographer, Philpson, noted in his works that the family names of the Arvanites, were nearly exclusively, Greek. Note that this wasn't a result of hellinization. Since the assimilation of Arvanites happened in the decade between 1912-1922 in this decade of war, the Arvanite youth followed Their fellow Greeks in battle, the family structure which spread and maintained the Arvanite language was broken, state control was increased, and 1.5 million Greeks arrived and settled amongst other places the aravnite center of Attica. Arvanites themselves live in places with not only Greek, But specifically ancient Greek names. 40% of the family names of the entire community, not the ones in the pelloponese only, were Greek, while the Arvanite name's, were only 25% of the community. The rest 35% were of mixed or unclear origins. In fact. Atticas albanisation, is not only carefully recorded, but in the 19th century, elders, still remembered nthe stories of Their grandparents. Which lived in th 17th century, the period When the albanisation of attica occurred.

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    ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
    I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
    In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
    As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.
    Last edited by ihype02; 29-03-21 at 21:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.

    I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?

    In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of nothern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.

    As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.
    Dear friend. I will presume that your interest on this matter is genuine. So I'll answer you likewise. The arrival and settlement of the Arvanites in Greece, has been perhaps the least studied part of the history of the region. And by least, I mean hardly anyone studied before the second world war. The westerners, were uncomfortable with non Greek speakers in the heart of Hellenism. They tried to disassociate it from the Hellines, for purely ideological reasons, not accepting the history of Greece. The numbers I gave if course we're not of the Greek government. The Greek state, didn't collect such data at the time. The numbers about the Greek Arvanites were given by the following people. Hahn(1840s), Philpson(1880s) and Finley(1830s). Those are the only foreigners Who in the 19th century attempted Such censuses. Hahn, was the first to publish his findings. He reported 174.000 Arvanites, in his book he rounds it up to 200.000. His work though was extremely problematic, regularly included non existent people, like the 10.000 Arvanites of Laconia, the 14.000 of phokaia and the 4.000 of sperchios. People who, don't exist. Hahn didn't visit all the Arvanite places, but rather asked others, falmereier about most of the data. Finley objected to Hahn's findings. Hahn, layer after the publication of his book, wrote a new prologue, admitting that his numbers were generally, not represenrive of the exact reality. Finley, had calculated 100.000 Arvanites (in his published notes). He also, in his work reported 200.000, possibly for not wanting to deviate from the pre existing assumptions, he generally, didn't spent much time talking about the Arvanites, he wasn't for the aforementioned reasons keen on the matter. Finally. Philpson, in his twelve month's in the country, reported the numbers I mentioned in the previous comments. The one who corrected him, was professor Korillos. Who collected the data by asking for the numbers from Major's of the Arvanite regions of Greece, Who were often enough of aravnite descent themselves. The most accurate of Those censuses, was. The one of Hahn. With some corrections, we can approximate the number of Greek Arvanites in the 1840s and 1850s to 120.000. the corrections are the aforementioned, plus.1) he talked about 30.000 Arvanites in Attica excluding the Greek speaking cities of Athens and Megara. But the population of the region was not only half the size, but Also included mixed settlements like elefsina. (Based in ottoman data, and travelers/visitors). He made the same mistake in South Euboea.

    Let's talk though about those "Arvanites". Their Greek name's, which about half of them had. One who doesn't know about the history if their settlement in Greece, might assume that were Hellinized names. This would be a mistake. Since the exact opposite happend. Not hellinization, but albanisation. Attica and Boitia, as the rest of Greece had booming agricultural and manufactural sectors in the 14th century (see William miller's "Francocracy in Greece"). So necessarily, they had a more than sufficient Population. The Arvanite settlements, as recorded in the Catalan, Florentine, and venician records were purely of military nature. Meaning, there was a demand for trained soldiers (all the Arvanites were solders, according to first hand sources, the men had Only one duty, training for and conducting war). Their settlement didn't happen in the densely populated agricultural centres. But in strategic positions. As I've probably written before, the Turkish invasion and venician relocations had as result a targeted and huge demographic decline of the Arvanites. This brought the surviving aravnites in contact with the locals (as refugees From Their initial settlements), and their former villages uninhabited. Arvanite movement South was organised and thus, well recorded. There wer not Many migration events. But one main event. When some of the Arvanites who weren't sent back to arbanon, settled Greece. The settler's Also, weren't only Arvanites. The venician records are clear. The invitation was to anyone who was a soldier, and could maintain himself, his family and one horse. Travelers in Attica in the 17th century, report specifically, no Arvanites in Menid, Marousi, Salamis and Koukouvaounes. Their arrival happened after an Arvanite revoot in Argolis. 7.000 Arvanites From Argolis, were relocated. 5.000 in the agean islands and Crete, and 2.000 in Attica. Then, slowly, the albanisation of attica was complete.

    But Why would the Greeks give up Their language? Why wouldn't the aravnite minority be absorbed by the Greek majority? This is a multifactoral answer. 1) There was no greek, or albanian state control. So every assimilation was a result of social interactions. This is fundamental in our understanding of the events. 2)The Arvanites, as a culture, are famously stubborn. There are plenty of proverbs in Greek, who describe and satirise the stubborn nature of the Arvanites. An assimilation of Arvanites by Greeks was out of the question straight away. The Church, Who many people think Hellinized others, didn't do this before the independence of the Greek state, since in an ottoman context, the language of the subject was irrelevant. Contrary to the heated period of the Macedonian struggle, where hellinization was a tool in the hands of the state. 3)The most important factor, which explains, the insane albanisation, in the specific regions of Attica and Boitia, is the Ottoman administration. Specifically the people, of albanian origin, running it. Tax collectors, of Muslim albanian background, treated the Arvanites better, on account of Their shared language. The Greeks, then. In an attempt to survive the harsh taxes, adjusted, as the Greeks are famous for. The Greek culture. Is incredibly flexible, elastic. Open to outsiders. The Greeks never Hellinized anyone without Their organised States, which could unlish the power of hellinization. Greeks, as a result, adopted Arvanite. The mixed marriages they made resulted in aravnite speaking kids, since this language, had much more social status in the ottoman empire, contrary, to the language of the orthodox Romans, the conquered, the enslaved, the Greeks. The name's of ancient Attica were carefully albanised, Amigdalia became Amigdaleza. Koukouvaines became Koukouvaounes and Varka became Varkiza. Old people, in the village of menidi, in the 19th century, remember hearing stories of the transition, by their grandparents, who were born in the late 17th early, 18th centuries, just after the assimlation. It should Also be noted, that because of different groups of Greeks, retaining different words and phrases from Greek When they transitioned, the Arvanite dialects were hardly mutually understood. As the Arvanites themselves would declare. The popular myths, the song's, the dresses in the weddings, the music, was still similar to the neighbouring greek speakers. This blood connection, of the Greek Arvanites, with hellinism explains what westerners described as following "The people, speak an albanian language, yet they seem all passionately proud about their ancestry From the builders of the Parthenon". In fact. Arvanites, of southern Greece. In their consciousness as a people, were proud about Their descent from the ancient Greeks. Which they called the people of old. This would have been impossible, if they were foreigners to the land. You can see it all around. The relationship the Turks, the Slavs and many others have with Their homeland, is clearly depicting, that they were foreigners to it. (The Turks of Cesme or Bodrum, never looked with pride the ancient Greek theaters of the region, feeling them as foreign to them). The Greek name's, of the Greek Arvanites, were a result of this assimilation.

    This as I've said. Explains why the inhabitants of Argolis (largely Arvanite speaking), are not closer to Albanians, genetically, than any other mainland greek, while they are really close (identical) with messinian and other greeks From non Arvanite speaking regions of the pelloponese.

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    I didn't read all that, I don't have the energy.
    But I will share this:
    "In all the Villages and Country about Athens, the In∣habitants are most Albaneses; and they are here more populous than in the Morea. I"
    In 17th century.
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A...;view=fulltext

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    Albania uber Alles

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
    I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
    In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
    As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.
    [QUOTE=ihype02;621946]I didn't read all that, I don't have the energy.
    But I will share this:
    "In all the Villages and Country about Athens, the In∣habitants are most Albaneses; and they are here more populous than in the Morea. I"
    In 17th century.

    You are using a quote without knowing what it is. You are aware of so little, that you can't understand the meaning of the quote. If you are interested in having a discussion, that's Great. I am happy to listen to your remarks. My answer to this quote is in the previous post. If you want to have a monologue, that's fine, but I am letting you know, that you don't know, and that you should read my comment, otherwise, don't try to make a point without having a discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
    I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
    In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
    As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Albania uber Alles
    No... No... No...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    No... No... No...

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    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Interesting, and it’s seems Peloponnesus is in the same boat .


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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
    I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
    In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
    As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Interesting, and it’s seems Peloponnesus is in the same boat .
    Sent from my iPhone using
    I was under the impression this was a serious chat Room. Let me explain you a thing or two. 1)Haplogroups don't correspond with ethnc groups. (Haplogroup E is common throughout Greece, southern Italy and the Balkans). 2) Skull shapes do not correspond with ethnic groups, this is 19th century racist propaganda. 3)The world isn't albanian.
    Contemporary studies and modern genetics have shown that out of all the Greeks, the closest to the Mycenaeans are the Peloponnesians. The spread of the haplogroup E also corresponds to the Hellenic expansion. In fact, this is one of the few times a certain haplogroup has been strongly identified with one historical event. With abnormal increases of haplogroup E in Corsica and southern France as well as the Asia minor coast. Sorry. But if you want to spread pseudo history/genetics darling, go to someone else, I am way out of your league.

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    ^ Cybernautic was being sarcastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^ Cybernautic was being sarcastic.
    And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.
    Albanians = Egyptian, that is the funny part. Something and some people can’t change their mind even with genetic studies.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    You post this kind of stuff here again, and you're out of here.

    Am I clear????


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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.
    I see youre having a hard time counting the Arvanites and are referring to some Greek studies on their numbers.

    Since this is Eupedia, may I suggest getting access to a database with deep subclades and count the amount of E-V13, R1b, and J2b2 of Central Balkan origin?

    A Bosnian member here called Aspurg did a great job separating the aforementioned subclades in Greece into Albanian-like and Bulgarian/Romanian-like, indicating clear Arvanite or Vlach origin of these tested individuals.

    Note that their number is quite high and if you deduct the more Northern origin of many E-V13 in Greece, you can to the conclusion that Greece originally didnt have as much E-V13 as it has now, pointing to late Central Balkan origin, mostly after the Slavic invasion of the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You post this kind of stuff here again, and you're out of here.

    Am I clear????
    Yes you are

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I see you�re having a hard time counting the Arvanites and are referring to some Greek studies on their numbers.

    Since this is Eupedia, may I suggest getting access to a database with deep subclades and count the amount of E-V13, R1b, and J2b2 of Central Balkan origin?

    A Bosnian member here called Aspurg did a great job separating the aforementioned subclades in Greece into Albanian-like and Bulgarian/Romanian-like, indicating clear Arvanite or Vlach origin of these tested individuals.

    Note that their number is quite high and if you deduct the more Northern origin of many E-V13 in Greece, you can to the conclusion that Greece originally didn�t have as much E-V13 as it has now, pointing to late Central Balkan origin, mostly after the Slavic invasion of the Balkans.
    I am not having a hard time counting the Arvanites at all! I wrote my thesis on them. I didn't refer to Greek sources aside of Korilos corrections. I referred to Finlay, Philpson, Hahn. And honestly, Finley gave a lower number than what I did (100.000) while Hahn who wrote about the 174.000 Arvanites, he then published a new prologue for his book in which he corrected himself. Based on the corrections of Hahn himself we come to the conclusion of the 120.000 Arvanites in 1830s early 1840s. My Greek sources were for a research done by Philpson, 40 years later, and in the meantime the Greek population had doubled. I Also suggest you to read, not a bosniaks research, but the genetic contribution of Greeks in thessaly and Cordia. E-v13 was directly linked with greek colonisation. In fact occasionally it was the only source. I suggest you read more carefully next time and be more informed about history 🙃

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    I am not having a hard time counting the Arvanites at all! I wrote my thesis on them. I didn't refer to Greek sources aside of Korilos corrections. I referred to Finlay, Philpson, Hahn. And honestly, Finley gave a lower number than what I did (100.000) while Hahn who wrote about the 174.000 Arvanites, he then published a new prologue for his book in which he corrected himself. Based on the corrections of Hahn himself we come to the conclusion of the 120.000 Arvanites in 1830s early 1840s. My Greek sources were for a research done by Philpson, 40 years later, and in the meantime the Greek population had doubled. I Also suggest you to read, not a bosniaks research, but the genetic contribution of Greeks in thessaly and Cordia. E-v13 was directly linked with greek colonisation. In fact occasionally it was the only source. I suggest you read more carefully next time and be more informed about history 🙃
    You seem like the type that isnt focused while reading and needs a second explanation.

    Aspurg didnt conduct a research, he just noticed in YFull or elsewhere how the parent clades of a very large number of E-V13 in Greece are in the area between Albania and Bulgaria/Romania, the majority being of Medieval origin and a minority of Iron Age/Illyrian origin.

    J2a is the truly predominant haplogroup of the Greeks, excluding the Neo-Greeks after 1821.

    As for Arvanites, we know plenty of examples of villages and lastnames with Albanian origins who have lost their identity long time ago, especially in Arcadia, Lakonia, and Mani, and even instances around Tripoli after the expulsion of the Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    You seem like the type that isn�t focused while reading and needs a second explanation.

    Aspurg didn�t conduct a research, he just noticed in YFull or elsewhere how the parent clades of a very large number of E-V13 in Greece are in the area between Albania and Bulgaria/Romania, the majority being of Medieval origin and a minority of Iron Age/Illyrian origin.

    J2a is the truly predominant haplogroup of the Greeks, excluding the Neo-Greeks after 1821.

    As for Arvanites, we know plenty of examples of villages and lastnames with Albanian origins who have lost their identity long time ago, especially in Arcadia, Lakonia, and Mani, and even instances around Tripoli after the expulsion of the Muslims.
    First of all. You sound like the guy, who has a conclusion before looking into it. And then he rushes to create an images to prove the pre concluded scenario.

    If you know villages in Arcadia, or anywhere else for that matter, where Arvanites, were assimlated, (BEFORE THE 19YH CENTURY) I'd really interested if you could share those data with me.

    I personally, as a general rule, prefer it when I talk about things I fully and completely, not Only understand, but Also comprehend. So, without wanting to disprove the infinite wisdom From an Eupedia map. I'll have to redirect you to a study done and published in nature magazine (I can't post link's yet, so you gonna have to look for it) about the Genetic contribution of Greeks to Sicily. The study. Among other things, concluded, that the Haplogroup E-v13 which peaks in Eastern Sicily, was a result of an ancient genetic flow from Greece to Sicily.

    So. Based on that, which I tend to trudt a little bit more. I can firmly question you theory. Since it becomes obvious, Greece had high E v13 rates since antiquity. In fact, this haplogroup has become a signature fir greek colonisation. Also. As a guy who has spent so much time researching the arrival of the Arvanites in southern Greece, and their evolution. I can inform you, that it would have been for them impossible to create, such an impressive genetic shift, the likes of which the settlement of Greeks in Sicily didn't (The Same study funds the Greek contribution to be about 37% of the total gene pool dispite the intense colonisation).

    But if you want to use Gedmatch and similar questionable sources. Then you gonna realise you are contradicting yourself. Since albanians are genetically closer to the Greeks Who have had the greatest slavic influence of all, native Greek speaking (Maybe not, it's really hard to know with Gedmatch, it could have been grecomans) macedonians. And genetically more distant to the peloponnese out of all the mainland groups.

    Concluding. Historically. Such a genetic shift can exist as a hypothesis only in the sphere of fantasy. Since, the Arvanites had neither the numbers nor the geographic spread (I've studied every Damn movement of them) Genetically. The ancient Greeks not having high E v13 number's. Is wrong. (Here, I can use firm language, since science, is not exactly a negotiable field).

    But your theory, shows Also, an extreme luck of understanding of the ancient world. Albanians are a small people in the southern balkan peninsula. Not Even ancestors of all the illyrians, just a handful of southern tribes. Greeks, were geographically and historically great. The Greek speakers of Cyprus, and Pontus speak the language and call themselves Greeks since 600BC. By definition, they are ancient Greeks. Yet are genetically divergent From mainland Greeks. Mainland Greeks themselves, ever since the period of Mycenaeans were genetically different than the islands and especially Crete (a study published nature magazine, the results are free to read but you need subscription for the analytic data). Concluding. An approach which suggests that ancient Greeks, even only in the mainland had one dominant haplogroup, while we know very well events such as the Dorian invasion affected only some areas of the mainland, is either a naive prospective, or an ideologically motivated one.

    All considered. Evidence until the 19th century suggest albanisation of Greeks rather than the opposite. Family name's, villages are all primarily in greek. In Attica, the albanisation of locals is even more pronounced than anywhere. Since in attica, There are Very few Arvanite toponyms, excepting the deserted regions of the aravnite military villages (long story short Turks killed a lot of Arvanites). The Albanian language status in the ottoman empire, albanian tax collectors and officials, a warrior class (the Arvanites) in a humiliated and horrified agricultural majority (the Greeks). Arvanite culture of persistence in comparison with greek culture of adaptation. The simplicity of the Arvanite language in comparison with greek, and the absence of a Greek state (which historically has been the only way hellinization worked). All contributed to the albanisation of Greeks. Before you start yelling abou the church. Let me inform you, that the patriarch of Constantinople didn't give a Damn in the context of the ottoman empire about the culture and ethnic identity of his subjects. As long as they were loyal to him, and not to the other orthodox churches. On fact. Hellinization through the church was promoted through the church of Greece (funded after the independence) and only as a weapon of the Greek state (similar to the bulgarian exarchate church). This religious pressure for ethnic conversion, was pointless in a pre nation's world (most of the Ottoman period) where the ethnic identity of the subject was irrelevant, and ethnic struggles were non existent. In fact, the venicians probably understood how interchangeable the Greeks and Arvanites had become through mixing, and how the arvanite identity became more of a cultural thing, since in their speeches they specified, that the Arvanites and the Greeks are one nation. (This is from the Venetian senate, you can Google it).

  20. #845
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    First of all. You sound like the guy, who has a conclusion before looking into it. And then he rushes to create an images to prove the pre concluded scenario.

    If you know villages in Arcadia, or anywhere else for that matter, where Arvanites, were assimlated, (BEFORE THE 19YH CENTURY) I'd really interested if you could share those data with me.

    I personally, as a general rule, prefer it when I talk about things I fully and completely, not Only understand, but Also comprehend. So, without wanting to disprove the infinite wisdom From an Eupedia map. I'll have to redirect you to a study done and published in nature magazine (I can't post link's yet, so you gonna have to look for it) about the Genetic contribution of Greeks to Sicily. The study. Among other things, concluded, that the Haplogroup E-v13 which peaks in Eastern Sicily, was a result of an ancient genetic flow from Greece to Sicily.

    So. Based on that, which I tend to trudt a little bit more. I can firmly question you theory. Since it becomes obvious, Greece had high E v13 rates since antiquity. In fact, this haplogroup has become a signature fir greek colonisation. Also. As a guy who has spent so much time researching the arrival of the Arvanites in southern Greece, and their evolution. I can inform you, that it would have been for them impossible to create, such an impressive genetic shift, the likes of which the settlement of Greeks in Sicily didn't (The Same study funds the Greek contribution to be about 37% of the total gene pool dispite the intense colonisation).

    But if you want to use Gedmatch and similar questionable sources. Then you gonna realise you are contradicting yourself. Since albanians are genetically closer to the Greeks Who have had the greatest slavic influence of all, native Greek speaking (Maybe not, it's really hard to know with Gedmatch, it could have been grecomans) macedonians. And genetically more distant to the peloponnese out of all the mainland groups.

    Concluding. Historically. Such a genetic shift can exist as a hypothesis only in the sphere of fantasy. Since, the Arvanites had neither the numbers nor the geographic spread (I've studied every Damn movement of them) Genetically. The ancient Greeks not having high E v13 number's. Is wrong. (Here, I can use firm language, since science, is not exactly a negotiable field).

    But your theory, shows Also, an extreme luck of understanding of the ancient world. Albanians are a small people in the southern balkan peninsula. Not Even ancestors of all the illyrians, just a handful of southern tribes. Greeks, were geographically and historically great. The Greek speakers of Cyprus, and Pontus speak the language and call themselves Greeks since 600BC. By definition, they are ancient Greeks. Yet are genetically divergent From mainland Greeks. Mainland Greeks themselves, ever since the period of Mycenaeans were genetically different than the islands and especially Crete (a study published nature magazine, the results are free to read but you need subscription for the analytic data). Concluding. An approach which suggests that ancient Greeks, even only in the mainland had one dominant haplogroup, while we know very well events such as the Dorian invasion affected only some areas of the mainland, is either a naive prospective, or an ideologically motivated one.

    All considered. Evidence until the 19th century suggest albanisation of Greeks rather than the opposite. Family name's, villages are all primarily in greek. In Attica, the albanisation of locals is even more pronounced than anywhere. Since in attica, There are Very few Arvanite toponyms, excepting the deserted regions of the aravnite military villages (long story short Turks killed a lot of Arvanites). The Albanian language status in the ottoman empire, albanian tax collectors and officials, a warrior class (the Arvanites) in a humiliated and horrified agricultural majority (the Greeks). Arvanite culture of persistence in comparison with greek culture of adaptation. The simplicity of the Arvanite language in comparison with greek, and the absence of a Greek state (which historically has been the only way hellinization worked). All contributed to the albanisation of Greeks. Before you start yelling abou the church. Let me inform you, that the patriarch of Constantinople didn't give a Damn in the context of the ottoman empire about the culture and ethnic identity of his subjects. As long as they were loyal to him, and not to the other orthodox churches. On fact. Hellinization through the church was promoted through the church of Greece (funded after the independence) and only as a weapon of the Greek state (similar to the bulgarian exarchate church). This religious pressure for ethnic conversion, was pointless in a pre nation's world (most of the Ottoman period) where the ethnic identity of the subject was irrelevant, and ethnic struggles were non existent. In fact, the venicians probably understood how interchangeable the Greeks and Arvanites had become through mixing, and how the arvanite identity became more of a cultural thing, since in their speeches they specified, that the Arvanites and the Greeks are one nation. (This is from the Venetian senate, you can Google it).
    One question only, was E-V13 dominant haplogroup in Peloponnesus before 1200 BC or was a latter addition?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  21. #846
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    From Wikipedia alone I understand the following:

    A study from the Universit Cattolica del Sacro Cuore found that while Greek colonization left little significant genetic contribution, data analysis sampling 12 sites in the Italian peninsula supported a male demic diffusion model and Neolithic admixture with Mesolithic inhabitants.[35]

    Overall the estimated Central Balkan and North Western European paternal contributions in South Italy and Sicily are about 63% and 26% respectively.[40]

  22. #847
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Wikipedia is a dubious source.

    As much as 26pc NW European?

    I think not.

  23. #848
    Regular Member
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    Country: Greece



    [QUOTE=blevins13;622055]One question only, was E-V13 dominant haplogroup in Peloponnesus before 1200 BC or was a latter addition?


    Sent from my iPhone using

    As I have explained before my field of expertise is history not genetics. I like to compliments my knowledge of history with genetics when we're talking about ancient immigrations but I'm really not an expert. Thus I do not make conclusions or discuss a lot about genetics I only mentioned what I have read in studies I can read online in scientific magazines like nature or science.

    The study claimed that there was a flow of this haplogroup from Southern Greece and the Balkans to Sicily in antiquity during the Greek colonization. So by the arcade and classical. Of Greece 800 to 400 BC it's obvious that high blood group E existed strongly in Greece. The same paper claimed that this particular mutation of capital group E appeared in the southern Balkans thousands of years ago. But the specific location or it's geographic distribution at the time is unknown. An event which could have saved the demography of ancient Greece is the Dorian invasion.

    Scholars have adopted one of two theories regarding this historical event. Some claim it was small in numbers and didn't really affect the population which it assimilated to Dorian culture. Some say that the invasion included significant numbers of people. If you were to hypothesize that dorians contributed to an increased presence of capital group E in southern Greece you wouldn't be baseless. But to what I'm aware of there is no study which has shown what happened group The dorians had or what it was its contribution in the Southern Bank and peninsula. Generally as I've understood it it's pretty hard to use genetics for immigration in a small geographic area by neighboring and similar people.

    So my answer would be that I do not know whether it was strongly present in the peloponnese at 1200 BC. It's definitely was heavily present by the time of Greek expansion due to it's being found in Sicily southern Italy Corsica southern France and being directly linked to the historical event. But other than that I really cannot give you anything else if you find something let me know.

  24. #849
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    Country: Greece



    [QUOTE=Dushman;622058]From Wikipedia alone I understand the following:

    found that while Greek colonization left little significant genetic contribution, data analysis sampling 12 sites in the Italian peninsula supported a male
    Overall the estimated Central Balkan and North Western European paternal contributions in South Italy and Sicily are about 63% and 26% respectively.


    I really don't want to be one of those who are quick to mention how unreliable Wikipedia is but as a guy who has had to dive deep in many historical events and specified subjects I can guarantee you that Wikipedia is really inaccurate when the topic is really specific or is really specialized.

    So the only thing I can really tell you is that as you can read in nature magazine if you Google "genetic input of Greeks in Sicily". They don't study found that Greek colonization had a substantial effect of around 37% of the total gene pool of Sicily. This is not that off from the number 26% percent.

    I said also told you you'll find that haplogroup E v13 is directly related with this event, not only in Sicily but I'm the whole of Western Mediterranean.

    For me this shows two things.
    1)That haplogroup E v13 was heavily reosrested in ancient southern balkan peninsula and specifically Greece.
    2) that the comparison of ancient Greeks with modern Southern Italians is wrong. since Southern Italians and especially Sicilians draw most of their genetics from non Greek sources including Middle East North Africa Northern Italy and native Sicilians

  25. #850
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    I am interested in seeing more E-V13 subclades in Peloponessus, it seems to be dominated by E-V13 S2979 subclade. One specific subclade of S2979 is present in Peloponessus and also present among Apuglians so very likely stemming from Dorians.

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