Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[Jovialis]

And you're extremely ticklish and touchy.

Oh I forgot, you're a mind reader, you can even read the intentions of the geneticists that wrote this study. Also, why don't you at least substantiate some of your claims. Your perceived authority on the subject means nothing to me. At least for every comment I made, I linked a legitimate source. On top of that, I wasn't asserting anything, I was merely bringing to light some questions I had. Sorry if that hurt your feelings!

Another unsubstantiated claim , I recall you said it couldn't be known due to Patricians practicing cremation. Now you're absolutely sure.

BTW, you were wrong about the TSI, and it's location, because it cannot be known other than it's near Florence. Where do you get your information from?!

I even e-mailed the company

Another instant of you being wrong.

I was wrong about that other study, and concede that because you actually linked a source by the author critiquing the study I found. See how it works? This is why I called you presumptuous. It's an observation, not an insult.

Do me a favor, and don't assume anything about me ever again.

 

[Angela]

Gentlemen, please, let's dial it back, ok.? There's no need for this. Enough.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Oh I forgot, you're a mind reader, you can even read the intentions of the geneticists that wrote this study. Also, why don't you at least substantiate some of your claims. Your perceived authority on the subject means nothing to me. At least for every comment I made, I linked a legitimate source. On top of that, I wasn't asserting anything, I was merely bringing to light some questions I had. Sorry if that hurt your feelings!

What should I substantiate? That you're a bit touchy? You're acting like that, but I'm not angry with you. In Italy it is the end of the summer, I feel extremely relaxed, the heat wave is finally over, but you can still go for nightclubs at night, and there are still many tourists around. For this reason, I dedicate you this Italian summer hit, including to all the Italians who don't live in Italy. As a sign of peace and friendship. I'm not joking.

BTW, you were wrong about the TSI, and it's location, because it cannot be known other than it's near Florence.

What would be wrong? Lazaridis uses indeed the HGDP sample in the PCA, it's enough to count them: 8. The PCA you've posted is from another author. Then, Lazaridis has, if memory serves me, used TSI for other kind of analysis in some of his previous papers, but not for the PCA.

And what would be the other mistake on TSI? That they are not from south-east of Florence?

Another instant of you being wrong.

Ok.

I was wrong about that other study, and concede that because you actually linked a source by the author critiquing the study I found. See how it works? This is why I called you presumptuous. It's an observation, not an insult.

Ok.

 

[Jovialis]

As a sign of peace and friendship. I'm not joking.

Peace

:cool-v:

Edit:

Let's move the discussion to this thread. I will answer when I get home.

 

[Angela]

We should have posted that song in the Italian music thread.

From it, I think the sensible take-away is that one should feel sorry for anyone who isn't young, beautiful, and in Italy in the summer, and that includes me.

Pace, indeed, gentlemen.

 

[LATGAL]

I can't quite tell. Are you agreeing with me or not?

Generally speaking, Albanians are eastern shifted Tuscans.

Sorry for the late response but I was agreeing of course (basically restating your main point more verbosely) and disagreeing with sile. And yes, Albanians and mainland Greeks look like 'eastern'-shifted Tuscans. I'm guesing it's due to Tuscans apparently having slightly greater EEF+WHG and Albanians/Greeks slightly greater steppe+extra CHG/Iran_N.

In those West Eurasian PCAs in the recent papers (for example) Southern Europe basically makes a Y shape with the stem (i.e. populations closer together) being South Italians/Sicilians + Greek islanders and Albanians/Greeks + Tuscans and the two horns (i.e. populations more apart on the PCA) being North Italians+Iberians and Slavic-speaking Balkanites. This (increasing) difference seems to be mostly caused by slightly higher amounts of steppe+Iran in the Balkan populations and slightly higher EEF+WHG in the 'equivalent' Italian and Iberian ones.

The study finds 85-96 percent similarity between the Greeks and south Italians, not Tuscans or north Italains. And the greater difference seems to be from additional Slavic ancestry. If you take a look at the first pca, the Greeks who don't plot with Sicily are more north and closer to the 85 percent figure, again due to additional Slavic.

Keep in mind that South Italy and Sicily (and Greek islanders) also apparently have more post-Neolithic Near Eastern input compared to mainland Greeks (and other Italians), if we use those Mycenaeans as a tentative baseline, so it's not just due to extra northern ancestry in mainland Greeks. Either way, our Italian and Balkan sampling is still in its infancy so you can just guess at the fine(r) details at this point.

 

[LATGAL]

What does "shared ancestry" exactly mean?

The average of the shared components in K4 to K8 ADMIXTURE runs. It's not exactly the best method but they're communicating what they're doing pretty clearly.

And, above all, why did they use in their comparisons only northern Slavic populations (Russians, Polish, Belarussians, Ukranians) and not southern Slavic populations like Bulgarians, Serbs or Macedonians (from Fyrom)?

Because they were trying to estimate early Slavic ancestry in Greeks. Using populations that clearly already have a good chunk of pre-Slavic Balkan ancestry shared with Greeks would confound things. Limited as well but I think it's clear what they were trying to do in this case too.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Sorry for the late response but I was agreeing of course (basically restating your main point more verbosely) and disagreeing with sile. And yes, Albanians and mainland Greeks look like 'eastern'-shifted Tuscans. I'm guesing it's due to Tuscans apparently having slightly greater EEF+WHG and Albanians/Greeks slightly greater steppe+extra CHG/Iran_N.
In those West Eurasian PCAs in the recent papers (for example) Southern Europe basically makes a Y shape with the stem (i.e. populations closer together) being South Italians/Sicilians + Greek islanders and Albanians/Greeks + Tuscans and the two horns (i.e. populations more apart on the PCA) being North Italians+Iberians and Slavic-speaking Balkanites. This (increasing) difference seems to be mostly caused by slightly higher amounts of steppe+Iran in the Balkan populations and slightly higher EEF+WHG in the 'equivalent' Italian and Iberian ones.

It's even more simple, they are mostly using a sample from south Tuscany from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) . A regional Tuscan average is a bit more northwest than that, a bit closer to Bergamo.

 

[ihype02]

Because they were trying to estimate early Slavic ancestry in Greeks. Using populations that clearly already have a good chunk of pre-Slavic Balkan ancestry shared with Greeks would confound things. Limited as well but I think it's clear what they were trying to do in this case too.

Sure they were.

 

[LATGAL]

It's even more simple, they are mostly using a sample from south Tuscany from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) . A regional Tuscan average is a bit more northwest than that, a bit closer to Bergamo.

That seems to be the case. From what I've seen, some Tuscan samples seem to cluster a bit more towards the Balkans than others.

Sure they were.

Dude, it's obvious you don't even have an interest in actually trying to understand these analyses in the first place based on some other comments. What exactly does this post of yours contribute?

 

[ihype02]

That seems to be the case. From what I've seen, some Tuscan samples seem to cluster a bit more towards the Balkans than others.

They even score closer to Greeks than the Sicilians in some studies.

Dude, it's obvious you don't even have an interest in actually trying to understand these analyses in the first place based on some other comments. What exactly does this post of yours contribute?

The study was done specifically to test the theory of Fallmerayer otherwise it wouldn't include Levantines.

 

[LATGAL]

They even score closer to Greeks than the Sicilians in some studies.

Err yes, some Italian populations/samples seem to be a bit closer to some Greek ones than other Italian ones and some Greek ones seem to be a bit closer to some Italian populations than some Greek ones. Mainland Greece + Tuscany (+ Albania) vs the Aegean and South Italy/Sicily. It's probably due to greater later steppe ancestry in the former and greater near eastern ancestry in the latter added to the Neolithic base.

The study was done specifically to test the theory of Fallmerayer otherwise it wouldn't include Levantines.

I'm talking about specifically the 'early Slavic' element. If they included Bulgaro-Macedonians and Serbo-Croats, they'd confuse things (especially with this limited ADMIXTURE approach) since those have a decent amount of Balkan ancestry already. You can tell by how close some of those are to Albanians and Greeks vs populations closer to the proto-Slavic urheimat (that would have admixed with more similar populations in the first place) like Ukrainians and Poles.

We can disagree on some things but at least take some time to understand what's exactly going on in that analysis instead of offering purely snarky comments that add nothing. Unless you were actually agreeing with me with your previous post, in which case I misunderstood you.

 

[ihype02]

I wonder why Tsakonians differ from others.

 

[Pratt]

Err yes, some Italian populations/samples seem to be a bit closer to some Greek ones than other Italian ones and some Greek ones seem to be a bit closer to some Italian populations than some Greek ones. Mainland Greece + Tuscany (+ Albania) vs the Aegean and South Italy/Sicily. It's probably due to greater later steppe ancestry in the former and greater near eastern ancestry in the latter added to the Neolithic base.

That seems to be the case. From what I've seen, some Tuscan samples seem to cluster a bit more towards the Balkans than others.

Dodecad K12 has two different Tuscan sample, TSI30 and Tuscan (HGDP).This is the PCA done based on the matrix of variance-covariance. Nothing unusual, everyone is in his place.

Here is the PCA based on the matrix of correlation. TSI30 remains in the Italian cluster and closer to the north of Italy, while Tuscan (HGDP) goes even in the direction of Bulgaria followed by the Greek sample. I do not like throwing hasty conclusions but Tuscan (HGDP) seems to have a shift towards the Balkans completely missing in the other Tuscan sample. Why?

 

[Angela]

Dodecad K12 has two different Tuscan sample, TSI30 and Tuscan (HGDP).This is the PCA done based on the the matrix of variance-covariance. Nothing unusual, everyone is in their place.

Here is the PCA based on the matrix of correlation. TSI30 remains in the Italian cluster and closer to the north of Italy, while Tuscan HGDP goes even in the direction of Bulgaria followed by the Greek sample. I do not like throwing hasty conclusions but Tuscan (HGDP) seems to have a shift towards the Balkans completely missing in the other Tuscan sample. Why?

I don't know, but back in the old days at 23andme where they provided all sorts of data for other people if you agreed to share with them, it was my impression that everybody from Rome south had some Balkan, and the further east they were the more they had, whereas Northwest Italians had more Iberian and much less or no Balkan. North east Italians did have high Balkan scores. That HGDP Tuscan sample is closer to Rome than it is to Firenze.

 

[Pratt]

I don't know, but back in the old days at 23andme where they provided all sorts of data for other people if you agreed to share with them, it was my impression that everybody from Rome south had some Balkan, and the further east they were the more they had, whereas Northwest Italians had more Iberian and much less or no Balkan. North east Italians did have high Balkan scores. That HGDP Tuscan sample is closer to Rome than it is to Firenze.

From what I understand PCA based on correlation may "be more informative and reveals some structure in the data and relationships between variables", I'm quoting the exact words of an expert user on PCA. So maybe this PCA may reveal indeed a Balkan influence which differentiates the two Tuscan samples.

I do agree with that you Northwest Italians are those who have less Balkan influence, which instead exists in the Northeast Italians.

 

[ihype02]

Err yes, some Italian populations/samples seem to be a bit closer to some Greek ones than other Italian ones and some Greek ones seem to be a bit closer to some Italian populations than some Greek ones. Mainland Greece + Tuscany (+ Albania) vs the Aegean and South Italy/Sicily. It's probably due to greater later steppe ancestry in the former and greater near eastern ancestry in the latter added to the Neolithic base.

But why is that central Italy is closer to Greece and Albania than let's say Anatolia?

 

[Angela]

But why is that central Italy is closer to Greece and Albania than let's say Anatolia?

Is that supposed to be a serious question?

 

[ihype02]

Is that supposed to be a serious question?

It is.
-- Here is one map showing Greece closer to Anatolia (Turkey/TR) than Italy. So it depends on the composition and calculation.
View attachment 9278
Link:https://image.ibb.co/jZ2QDk/main_qimg_5d65828c54a935296eb53d78bd5fbb19_c.jpg

 

[LATGAL]

It is.
-- Here is one map showing Greece closer to Anatolia (Turkey/TR) than Italy. So it depends on the composition and calculation.
View attachment 9278
Link:https://image.ibb.co/jZ2QDk/main_qimg_5d65828c54a935296eb53d78bd5fbb19_c.jpg

That PCA is pretty old and doesn't seem to use good, representative sampling overall. Check out more recent stuff. You don't get a great reception because people are unsure whether you've just not kept up with this stuff at all or are just trawling, I think.