Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 35 of 36 FirstFirst ... 2533343536 LastLast
Results 851 to 875 of 878

Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #851
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-02-21
    Posts
    19


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I am interested in seeing more E-V13 subclades in Peloponessus, it seems to be dominated by E-V13 S2979 subclade. One specific subclade of S2979 is present in Peloponessus and also present among Apuglians so very likely stemming from Dorians.
    Well yes I guess. But In such a tight and interconnected geographic area such as the Southern Balkans especially if we consider that this is the region where this particular haplogroup E v13 appeared there it would be very hard to relate a specific subclades to a specific region. But maybe it could be easier to correlate these subclades with a specific historical event in southern Italy as you said and the Western Mediterranean since haplogroup E v13 arrived there through population movement from the Balkans recently in this is relatively well known.

    But again I'm not a geneticist or something so I would rather not rush to conclusions because there is always the chance that an account of my liking of understanding I misinterpret them.

    The research team didn't really emphasize the existence of different subclades of Ev13. It could be possible that those subclades are really geographically spread since antiquity.

    Judging on the high amount of haplogroups in Greeks albanians in southern Italians and the fact that since prehistoric times the region has had the extreme population mixing (ancestral sources, like Indo europeans, Anatolian farmer's, neo lithic hunter gatherers) I would question whether the dorians had only one prevailing haplogroup, let alone subclade.

    But you could be totally right.

  2. #852
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    432

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    Well yes I guess. But In such a tight and interconnected geographic area such as the Southern Balkans especially if we consider that this is the region where this particular haplogroup E v13 appeared there it would be very hard to relate a specific subclades to a specific region. But maybe it could be easier to correlate these subclades with a specific historical event in southern Italy as you said and the Western Mediterranean since haplogroup E v13 arrived there through population movement from the Balkans recently in this is relatively well known.
    But again I'm not a geneticist or something so I would rather not rush to conclusions because there is always the chance that an account of my liking of understanding I misinterpret them.
    The research team didn't really emphasize the existence of different subclades of Ev13. It could be possible that those subclades are really geographically spread since antiquity.
    Judging on the high amount of haplogroups in Greeks albanians in southern Italians and the fact that since prehistoric times the region has had the extreme population mixing (ancestral sources, like Indo europeans, Anatolian farmer's, neo lithic hunter gatherers) I would question whether the dorians had only one prevailing haplogroup, let alone subclade.
    But you could be totally right.
    I mentioned only the E-V13 part of the Dorians, didn't specify that they were 100% E-V13. Of course they could have been a mix of various Y-DNA.

    There is J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and perhaps some T as well.

  3. #853
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-02-21
    Posts
    19


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I mentioned only the E-V13 part of the Dorians, didn't specify that they were 100% E-V13. Of course they could have been a mix of various Y-DNA.

    There is J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and perhaps some T as well.
    Yeah I know what you mean. It's clear that southern Italy and southern balkans have historic and subsequently genetic ties.

    It could be possible Also for Dorian's to have some I2 a different subclade than the slavic one, but many Cretans have I2 and crete was Also colonized by Dorian's. I don't, know all these are really speculative

  4. #854
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-01-09
    Posts
    659


    Country: UK - Scotland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    [QUOTE=Peter3467;622064]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    found that while Gree
    So the only thing I can really tell you is that as you can read in nature magazine if you Google "genetic input of Greeks in Sicily". They don't study found that Greek colonization had a substantial effect of around 37% of the total gene pool of Sicily. This is not that off from the number 26% percent.
    Sorry, you've lost me. Southern Italy has nothing like 26pc Northwest European.

    Only some areas in the Italian Alps equal or exceed that figure.

  5. #855
    Regular Member cybernautic's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-18
    Posts
    69


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: UK - England



    EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.

    The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
    and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.

    These Locals may have carried EV13

  6. #856
    Regular Member cybernautic's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-18
    Posts
    69


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    Yeah I know what you mean. It's clear that southern Italy and southern balkans have historic and subsequently genetic ties.
    It could be possible Also for Dorian's to have some I2 a different subclade than the slavic one, but many Cretans have I2 and crete was Also colonized by Dorian's. I don't, know all these are really speculative
    Some I clades have been found in ancient Minoan people from Crete which were analyzed.

    I don't remember though if it was I2

  7. #857
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-02-21
    Posts
    19


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.

    The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
    and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.

    These Locals may have carried EV13
    It most likely arrived to the peloponnese from somewhere. I don't know though if this was in late pre historic times. It totally could be there for many thousands year's, seeing how haplogroup E arrived in Europe ~25.000 years ago. Judging by it existing from Serbia to Crete, it's totally possible that maybe we are looking for a specific event/migration which happened in so early that we can't know anything about it. Although tbh, it's first appearance and it's modern existence in the peloponnese must be pretty different. I would argue, that it existed a time when Haplogroup E-v13 was really dominant in southern balkans, before the arrival of the Anatolian farmers who impacted a lot places like Greece (where nowadays, most of the gene pool is of those Anatolians) and the later Slavic invasion which completely changed the northern Balkans. Kosovo could be an example of how large parts if Serbia and Dalmatia were before the slavic invasion.

  8. #858
    Regular Member cybernautic's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-18
    Posts
    69


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    It most likely arrived to the peloponnese from somewhere. I don't know though if this was in late pre historic times. It totally could be there for many thousands year's, seeing how haplogroup E arrived in Europe ~25.000 years ago. Judging by it existing from Serbia to Crete, it's totally possible that maybe we are looking for a specific event/migration which happened in so early that we can't know anything about it. Although tbh, it's first appearance and it's modern existence in the peloponnese must be pretty different. I would argue, that it existed a time when Haplogroup E-v13 was really dominant in southern balkans, before the arrival of the Anatolian farmers who impacted a lot places like Greece (where nowadays, most of the gene pool is of those Anatolians) and the later Slavic invasion which completely changed the northern Balkans. Kosovo could be an example of how large parts if Serbia and Dalmatia were before the slavic invasion.
    My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
    but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.

    Just one possibility

    Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.

  9. #859
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    45
    Posts
    789

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.

    The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
    and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.

    These Locals may have carried EV13
    Seriously......


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  10. #860
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    45
    Posts
    789

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
    but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.

    Just one possibility

    Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.
    Urnfield Hungary, would be a better guess, it exploded with urnfield culture.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  11. #861
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-02-21
    Posts
    19


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
    but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.

    Just one possibility

    Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.
    I am sceptic about the one in Cyclades. It could be a recent mutation. It may be that our sample size is very small. It could be a certain colonisation of the islands before the Mycenaean period. Sample sizes make conclusions with that accuracy problematic

  12. #862
    Regular Member cybernautic's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-18
    Posts
    69


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    I am sceptic about the one in Cyclades. It could be a recent mutation. It may be that our sample size is very small. It could be a certain colonisation of the islands before the Mycenaean period. Sample sizes make conclusions with that accuracy problematic
    You might take a look at the thread about EV13 here for further information about this clade

  13. #863
    Regular Member cybernautic's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-18
    Posts
    69


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Urnfield Hungary, would be a better guess, it exploded with urnfield culture.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    If it came from Urnfield it should be or have been common in Northern and Central parts of Italy too then

  14. #864
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-02-21
    Posts
    19


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    You might take a look at the thread about EV13 here for further information about this clade
    I meant that I am sceptic about the sample size and it's verification. I do not trust Eupedia for such in depth analysis.

  15. #865
    Regular Member cybernautic's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-18
    Posts
    69


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    I meant that I am sceptic about the sample size and it's verification. I do not trust Eupedia for such in depth analysis.
    Hmm ok, better to not fully trust it.

  16. #866
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    27-08-20
    Posts
    33


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Peter3467 View Post
    I meant that I am sceptic about the sample size and it's verification. I do not trust Eupedia for such in depth analysis.
    You dont trust anything, not even the most basic facts about parent clades and younger clades splitting off from them.

    But were supposed to trust everything you say. Even the long tiring comments without paragraphs.

    Arent you supposed to be knowledgeable first in order to distrust/disprove someone elses opinion?

  17. #867
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-02-21
    Posts
    19


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    You don�t trust anything, not even the most basic facts about parent clades and younger clades splitting off from them.

    But we�re supposed to trust everything you say. Even the long tiring comments without paragraphs.

    Arent you supposed to be knowledgeable first in order to distrust/disprove someone else�s opinion?
    1) Sorry about the paragraphs.

    2) I most definitely do not demand expect or hope you fully trust what I am saying. Doubt, questioning and criticism are important

    3) I never questioned the science behind the subclade in the Cyclades. If you read my dialogue with cybernautic you'll see that I questioned the sample size which lead to that conclusion

    4) Questioning and trusting are two different things. I don't think Cybernautic lied, I genuinely think there is this subclade of E v13 which according to people who shared their results and willingly talked about them is only found there. I questioned though the sample size, the geographic location ( some Cyclades islands have had a history of re Population and have been anything but isolated From the mainland).

    5) If you want to question anything I've said, I would be more than happy to hear it. This is why I wrote it after all in this forum. Not for everyone to agree with it, but for someone to criticize it so we can have a discussion.

  18. #868
    Regular Member Mineiro25's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-05-21
    Posts
    36

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF27
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2

    Ethnic group
    49.1 Portuguese, 20.1 Italy_Veneto,16.0 Yoruban, 9.8 North_German, 5.0 Karitiana
    Country: Brazil



    1 members found this post helpful.
    In the modern Peloponnese there seems to have been an increase in Slavic and Levantine ancestry in relation to ancient Minoan and Mycenean samples. But apparently there was somewhere between 50% continuity, which is quite a lot.


    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.8607% / 0.01860665
    32.6 Corded_Ware_POL
    23.6 GRC_Minoan_EBA
    22.4 GRC_Mycenaean
    21.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA

    Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese
    0.06417624 GRC_Mycenaean
    0.09880740 GRC_Minoan_EBA
    0.11279586 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    0.15870429 Corded_Ware_POL:N49

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    0.05467739 GRC_Minoan_EBA
    0.10080089 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    0.21222048 Corded_Ware_POL:N49

  19. #869
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,288

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mineiro25 View Post
    In the modern Peloponnese there seems to have been an increase in Slavic and Levantine ancestry in relation to ancient Minoan and Mycenean samples. But apparently there was somewhere between 50% continuity, which is quite a lot.
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.8607% / 0.01860665
    32.6 Corded_Ware_POL
    23.6 GRC_Minoan_EBA
    22.4 GRC_Mycenaean
    21.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese
    0.06417624 GRC_Mycenaean
    0.09880740 GRC_Minoan_EBA
    0.11279586 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    0.15870429 Corded_Ware_POL:N49
    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    0.05467739 GRC_Minoan_EBA
    0.10080089 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    0.21222048 Corded_Ware_POL:N49
    This modeling makes no sense. If you are going to regurgitate clichés from misinformed people from Anthrogenica, you're not impressing anyone. G25's modern populations were even dismissed by Davidiski himself, for inaccuracies.

  20. #870
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    584


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This modeling makes no sense. If you are going to regurgitate clichés from misinformed people from Anthrogenica, you're not impressing anyone. G25's modern populations were even dismissed by Davidiski himself, for inaccuracies.
    They shouldn't include Minoans. That is the mistake.

  21. #871
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,288

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    They shouldn't include Minoans. That is the mistake.
    Myceaneans can be modeled with Minoans in and of themselves. But also, I seriously doubt LBA_Ashkelon is a viable source as well. 21% is ludicrous, there's no way that is close to accurate.

  22. #872
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    584


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Myceaneans can be modeled with Minoans in and of themselves. But also, I seriously doubt LBA_Ashkelon is a viable source as well. 21% is ludicrous, there's no way that is close to accurate.
    Most Middle Eastern DNA in European Greeks must be of Anatolian origin by a historical perspective not Levantine.

  23. #873
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,288

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Most Middle Eastern DNA in European Greeks must be of Anatolian origin by a historical perspective not Levantine.
    Indeed, historic and prehistoric, which would be overwhelmingly Anatolian_N, and CHG.

  24. #874
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,190


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This modeling makes no sense. If you are going to regurgitate clichés from misinformed people from Anthrogenica, you're not impressing anyone. G25's modern populations were even dismissed by Davidiski himself, for inaccuracies.
    Eurogenes' minions never give up. Or perhaps it's him.:)

    Anything to try to show it's Corded Ware people who came to Greece, whom, from all we know, seem to have gone north and west not south, and not people from, say, Catacomb culture or down the western side from Central Europe. Also, since ancient Greeks are so close to Southern Italians, we've got to get Levant in there somewhere, or they've been wrong for close to a decade.

    This is presupposing, in terms of Levant Ashkelon, that, for them to represent the ancestry of modern Greeks, a tidal wave of them went to Greece, in a movement undocumented in the history and archaeology.

    Shades of the Etruscans. :) They never tire of being wrong.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  25. #875
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    143


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    If it came from Urnfield it should be or have been common in Northern and Central parts of Italy too then
    the origin of the urnfield is not northern europe, the carpathian basin is more likely

Page 35 of 36 FirstFirst ... 2533343536 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •