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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #876
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    Im from Turkey and i think i have any "Greek" Ancestry

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the origin of the urnfield is not northern europe, the carpathian basin is more likely
    I talked about Northern Italy not Northern Europe

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.
    I don’t know what you see in your end, but on my side Peloponnesus comes closest than Laberia.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    According to the Updated version of the Dodecad K12b modern coordinates, Peloponnese are to the direct "East" of me. At a 7-plus distance:

    Distance to: Jovialis
    7.06623662 Greek_Peloponnese


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    I seem to plot roughly between Mycenaean Peloponnese and Modern Peloponnese, which is a coincidence. Nevertheless, I am certain that I have some Greek ancestry, given the history of my region of Italy.

    Which is confirmed by DNA testing:


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    i plot the same as myheritage and similar numbers




    and my #1 in MTA is I7043 ............hungarian burial ...most probably migrated from west to east in europe




    Copper Age Szigetszentmiklos Hungary 2350 BC

    I7043



    mtDNA: H1b1Y-DNA: R1b1a1b1a1a4 (FGC37097)
    Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 41)
    6 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 29.94 cM
    Largest chain: 357 SNPs / 8.19 cM
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I seem to plot roughly between Mycenaean Peloponnese and Modern Peloponnese, which is a coincidence. Nevertheless, I am certain that I have some Greek ancestry, given the history of my region of Italy.

    Which is confirmed by DNA testing:

    Can you hep me, I cannot post any photo?


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    ^^You need to use a website like imgur, to upload the photo, and embed the bbcode in a post.

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    I am wondering how much seafaring happened in the Bronze Age or even earlier the Neolithic. What types of boats or rafts? Any archaeological finds to document seafaring among southern Greece and Southern Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I am wondering how much seafaring happened in the Bronze Age or even earlier the Neolithic. What types of boats or rafts? Any archaeological finds to document seafaring among southern Greece and Southern Italy?
    The was certainly some seafaring going on.

    Scientists even speculate that the Neanderthals used boats:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...-mediterranean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.
    My maternal grandfather came from a village in Messinia (Aetos, Tryfilia) and I'm getting (I believe) Albanian matches through him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    My maternal grandfather came from a village in Messinia (Aetos, Tryfilia) and I'm getting (I believe) Albanian matches through him.
    How many Albanian matches do you have?

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    How many people are getting tested in each of the Balkan countries? If the Albanians are getting tested more than the other countries you will probably get a lot matches compared to the North Macedonians and the Bulgarians.

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    Having grown up in the Greek community, it was very exclusive. We only associated with other Greeks (no offense, it was something like the big, fat Greek wedding movie). We come from villages in the Peloponnese that had Turkish or Slavic/Greek names. In those villages, the people spoke Greek going back to at least the late 1700’s, early 1800’s, from the few family lines I can trace and some village historians. Before that, there could have been Arvanites coming to live in those villages, converting to Greek and intermarrying.

    There must have been significant gene introgression into the Greek community, for us to have a lot of Arvanite ancestry. In my case, the question is when did it happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Having grown up in the Greek community, it was very exclusive. We only associated with other Greeks (no offense, it was something like the big, fat Greek wedding movie). We come from villages in the Peloponnese that had Turkish or Slavic/Greek names. In those villages, the people spoke Greek going back to at least the late 1700’s, early 1800’s, from the few family lines I can trace and some village historians. Before that, there could have been Arvanites coming to live in those villages, converting to Greek and intermarrying.

    There must have been significant gene introgression into the Greek community, for us to have a lot of Arvanite ancestry. In my case, the question is when did it happen.
    This is not a difficult question to answer considering big-y and TMRCA of the male lines in Peloponnesus compared with the Albanian y dna lines.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I don’t know what you see in your end, but on my side Peloponnesus comes closest than Laberia.

    Sorry for the delay, I was on holiday.

    There are of course people in Peloponnesus who share with Labs in the past 400 years. Some sample pots are going to reflect this obvious fact. I just think the hypothesis sometimes put forward on these forums (essentially all or most Peloponnesians are descended in part from Albanians) is a lot more complicated. I feel this way as someone who used to be a proponent of the above to some extent. My anecodtal evidence is that people who have grandparents who spoke Arvantika share ancestors with South Albanians in the early modern period. Those whose grandparents were monolingual do not. There are bound to be exceptions. I do not know the exact reason why. It's clear that at one point there were many many Albanians in Morea. Perhaps the majority migrated to Italy. Perhaps they were already a mixed lot once they arrived there. Some ydna studies on the E1b in Morea would be helpful in this regard.

    I do know that the Kolokotronis DNA project found his descendents to be I1, possibly a Norman clade brought to Greece by Albanians.

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    Im a North Albanian from the region bordering Montenegro and I get Peloponnese as a top match. The connection between Peloponnese and Albanians is not a coincidence and it is not solely related to the Arvanites, but also previous internal Balkan migrations in earlier times, resulting in the accumulation of a a high percentage of Albanian/Arvanite amd Albanian-like admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    Sorry for the delay, I was on holiday.

    There are of course people in Peloponnesus who share with Labs in the past 400 years. Some sample pots are going to reflect this obvious fact. I just think the hypothesis sometimes put forward on these forums (essentially all or most Peloponnesians are descended in part from Albanians) is a lot more complicated. I feel this way as someone who used to be a proponent of the above to some extent. My anecodtal evidence is that people who have grandparents who spoke Arvantika share ancestors with South Albanians in the early modern period. Those whose grandparents were monolingual do not. There are bound to be exceptions. I do not know the exact reason why. It's clear that at one point there were many many Albanians in Morea. Perhaps the majority migrated to Italy. Perhaps they were already a mixed lot once they arrived there. Some ydna studies on the E1b in Morea would be helpful in this regard.

    I do know that the Kolokotronis DNA project found his descendents to be I1, possibly a Norman clade brought to Greece by Albanians.
    Kolokotronis DNA project? Link?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I�m a North Albanian from the region bordering Montenegro and I get Peloponnese as a top match. The connection between Peloponnese and Albanians is not a coincidence and it is not solely related to the Arvanites, but also previous internal Balkan migrations in earlier times, resulting in the accumulation of a a high percentage of Albanian/Arvanite amd �Albanian-like� admixture.
    A lot of guessing and speculating on your part when the Arvanite/Albanian migration has been well documented and was quite large especially in the Peloponnese. Now if we found that Albanians and Cretans/Thracian Greeks/Macedonian Greeks then I think you would possibly have a point. But the fact is as I said the Arvanite migrations were quite large and are well documented and are thus the only reason to explain these genetic similarities.

    I think you might just be underestimating the scale of the migration. Keep in mind that there were Islands close to Peloponnesus which became entirely inhabited by Arvanites/Albanians.

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    As I posted on Anthrogenica earlier today I discovered (just yesterday) that my maternal grandfather was an Arvanite. I had suspected this for the past few years. My suspicion was linked partly to a strong Albanian shift on G 25 but was confirmed when I posted my grandfather’s oral history (transcribed by my mom in 1959) on the FB Greek Ancestry/History site. The oral history traces his paternal line to an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis Arcadia. Other posters confirmed both his birth village, Aetos Messinia and ancestral village as being Arvanite. It’s really no surprise to me but was never mentioned or even known by my mom. My cousin who visited Greece with my Grandfather in the 60s mentioned an Albanian connection but it wasn’t further explored until now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    As I posted on Anthrogenica earlier today I discovered (just yesterday) that my maternal grandfather was an Arvanite. I had suspected this for the past few years. My suspicion was linked partly to a strong Albanian shift on G 25 but was confirmed when I posted my grandfather’s oral history (transcribed by my mom in 1959) on the FB Greek Ancestry/History site. The oral history traces his paternal line to an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis Arcadia. Other posters confirmed both his birth village, Aetos Messinia and ancestral village as being Arvanite. It’s really no surprise to me but was never mentioned or even known by my mom. My cousin who visited Greece with my Grandfather in the 60s mentioned an Albanian connection but it wasn’t further explored until now.
    Would be great to have that side tested somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Would be great to have that side tested somehow.
    I know. Only one (male) first cousin who carries the male haplogroup from that Arvanite line. I'm trying to reach and have him tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    A lot of guessing and speculating on your part when the Arvanite/Albanian migration has been well documented and was quite large especially in the Peloponnese. Now if we found that Albanians and Cretans/Thracian Greeks/Macedonian Greeks then I think you would possibly have a point. But the fact is as I said the Arvanite migrations were quite large and are well documented and are thus the only reason to explain these genetic similarities.

    I think you might just be underestimating the scale of the migration. Keep in mind that there were Islands close to Peloponnesus which became entirely inhabited by Arvanites/Albanians.
    Ill break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times).

    The only thing I didnt do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian.

    Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close.

    On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we dont.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I�ll break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times).

    The only thing I didn�t do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian.

    Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close.

    On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we don�t.
    One also has to account for
    -The internal migrations during the centuries before the completion of the Ottoman conquest of Peloponnese and after it.
    -The external migrations to places like South Italy.
    -The conversion to Islam of at least a part of the population, with the exception of any possible back conversions to Christianity during or after the Greek revolution and the establishment of the first Greek state the rest being counted as "Turk-Albanians" would had normally been "taken out" of the local -Christian- gene pool.
    -The migration of Epirotes and Vlachs to various parts of Peloponnese, these populations would have brought additional West Balkan/Albanian-like "signatures" / shared IBD ?

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