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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #51
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    Your post is appreciated but this particular user does this in every forum he participates in (and he's participated in plenty under different names). He skirts with getting banned until the forum owners finally get tired of his bringing his Balkan Wars into every topic that concerns his various "enemies". Just letting you know since he's notorious and I can see he's done similar in this forum in the past as well.

    Anyway, take care.

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    @Angela
    Obviously every Greek settlement in Magna Graecia had an impact, but could not be held responsible for the genetic similarities between Greece and Italy. Like u said urself, the connection reaches back into the Neolithic and even farther, and we see a similar trend of population movements going on for centuries. It seems to be always the case that people from northern Balkans move south and from there to Italy. Even the ancient Greek and Roman mythology always claimed that several tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor, then we have the famous colonies of Magna Graecia, then we have the expulsion of Greeks by the Byzantine Empire forming the Griko minority, then the Turks influenced the same trend, followed even by the Albanians known as Arbereshe who had also settled in Greece for 3-4 centuries already, and so on.

    With regards to the Slavic settlements in Peloponnese, even if they were pure Polish-like with no admixture whatsoever, they could never be enough to drastically change the genetic makeup, especially after the massive waves of Albanians coming from the North and bringing even more almost identical genetic makeup to the region. That is why I brought them up, as they would have easily outnumbered any Slavic migration, knowning that in the entire Balkans the number of Slavs was 100,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    @Angela
    Obviously every Greek settlement in Magna Graecia had an impact, but could not be held responsible for the genetic similarities between Greece and Italy. Like u said urself, the connection reaches back into the Neolithic and even farther, and we see a similar trend of population movements going on for centuries. It seems to be always the case that people from northern Balkans move south and from there to Italy. Even the ancient Greek and Roman mythology always claimed that several tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor, then we have the famous colonies of Magna Graecia, then we have the expulsion of Greeks by the Byzantine Empire forming the Griko minority, then the Turks influenced the same trend, followed even by the Albanians known as Arbereshe who had also settled in Greece for 3-4 centuries already, and so on.

    With regards to the Slavic settlements in Peloponnese, even if they were pure Polish-like with no admixture whatsoever, they could never be enough to drastically change the genetic makeup, especially after the massive waves of Albanians coming from the North and bringing even more almost identical genetic makeup to the region. That is why I brought them up, as they would have easily outnumbered any Slavic migration, knowning that in the entire Balkans the number of Slavs was 100,000.
    We are basically in agreement, except that we may differ as to the extent of the impact of the Greek colonization of Magna Graecia.

    Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters.


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    Angela, thank you for the Griko notes and the pizzica orientation. I understood a few words of the Griko song.

    As to the pizzica dance, it is unfamiliar to me. Most Greek dances featuring women are sedate and almost always in 3 or more dancing. (My limited experience.) Even the 'belly dance' tsifteteli while it has a lot of hip swinging, the feet do not move nearly as much as what i saw in the pizzica. And I've never seen such twirling. Having said that, Greek culture is very vast, it is not for me to rule it out.

    As for the town square dance, male-female dancing - as pairs - is quite rare in traditional Greek dancing. I saw a dance troop -non Greeks - purport to show a Greek dance featuring paired dancing. However, in the Kalamatianos circle dance, men and women and children can make up the 'chorus line' hand in hand - particularly among family and familiars.

    I think it is wonderful that traces - fun traces- of a Greek presence on the Italian mainland exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We basically in agreement, except that we may differ as to the extent of the impact of the Greek colonization of Magna Graecia.

    Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters.
    there r simply way too many migrations from different sources to consider the colonization from mainland Greece as the main reason. Even the Albanians r enough to compete in numbers with the ancient colonisation of Magna Graecia. Italy has always been populous enough to not be that genetically influenced by a few cities on its shores.

    And with regards to appearance, I'm surprised that people find them that similar. Italians have a very distinct look no matter if they're from North or South. I've visited South Italy and Sicily many times so I have enough knowledge on the appearance topic.

    Back to topic, I still think this study was a waste of money. It looks like they did all that to disprove a deceased scientist from 2 centuries ago when the Slavic admixture in Greece is not even a delicate topic nowadays. Even the Catalans could have had a higher impact.

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    That is disappointing Angela, your 'basically in agreement' gives credence to his Albanian massive waves trope, which disappeared by 1821 per Turkish viewpoint at least the 'massive' aspect. As I stated in my earliest post here, would that the authors had included an Albanian comparison! Perhaps a reliable Albanian autosomal DNA test group doesn't exist?

    But then it seems that the FYROM crowd would not be satisfied with that comparison if it could be made as (speculating here, but not much) the true Albanian Admixture is simply the Greek admixture, regardless of location.

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    Angela, here ("Even the Albanians r enough..."), Swiss Nik is asserting an Albanian core to your Italy. Glad to see there is no limit to Albanian impact in this nor indeed, any region of the world.
    Last edited by last-resort; 10-03-17 at 14:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I am only going to be saying this once, people: Cut it out.

    This thread is not, repeat, not, going to be ruined and turned into the setting for another Balkan War.

    This thread is not about the treatment of Albanians or Albanian speakers in Greece, or even the genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians, which obviously exist.

    For those who don't see the point of the paper, just look at how that fossil Falmerayer still gets thrown out there.

    @Marko,
    I hope that quote was posted in a spirit of irony.

    @Nik,
    Obviously, the genetic links between Greece and Italy are multiple, reaching back into the Neolithic and the Bronze Age. That doesn't mean that the Greek settlement of Magna Graecia had no impact. Nor does it mean that there wasn't gene flow in the other direction as well.

    As to the "Slavs", I don't know how "mixed" the group was that actually entered Greece. I see this comment often, but I don't see any proof provided. Were there long periods of hiatus along the way, where they mixed with locals, before moving onto Greece? Do you have actual documentary evidence for it? We certainly have no ancient dna, which would actually answer a lot of these questions.

    I also wish there had been comparisons with other Balkan populations, as well as with other areas of Greece and Italy (and something besides PCA and ADMIXTURE). However, would similarities between northern Balkan peoples and Greeks mean that the incoming "Slavs" to Greece were mixed?

    Is it really news to anyone that "South Slavs", while they may speak Slavic languages, aren't actually "Slavs" genetically? The paper is addressing the question of how much non-Balkan actual Slavic genetics is in the people of the Peloponnese.

    I actually think Poles are a good choice for seeing overall historic "Slav" similarity. Look at the IBD sharing analysis from Ralph and Coop.
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NsM0V5DAj...op_2_small.png

    Oh, for new members to the forum, I know how provocative some of this stuff can be, but stay civil, and no cursing.
    If there's one thing i can not understand is how exactly can be considered to quote one of the leading experts of the nineteenth century, a person who has personally visited Greece as Fallmerayer, a provocation, and against the rules of this forum. And from the other hand you allow a person as Yetos that in all his posts attacks the Albanians with a vulgar vocabulary, the last in this thread. I can do a whole thread with the offenses of Yetos against my people. The way you operate as a moderator is unheard.
    Please, make a black list with the authors that you don't like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Angela, thank you for the Griko notes and the pizzica orientation. I understood a few words of the Griko song.

    As to the pizzica dance, it is unfamiliar to me. Most Greek dances featuring women are sedate and almost always in 3 or more dancing. (My limited experience.) Even the 'belly dance' tsifteteli while it has a lot of hip swinging, the feet do not move nearly as much as what i saw in the pizzica. And I've never seen such twirling. Having said that, Greek culture is very vast, it is not for me to rule it out.

    As for the town square dance, male-female dancing - as pairs - is quite rare in traditional Greek dancing. I saw a dance troop -non Greeks - purport to show a Greek dance featuring paired dancing. However, in the Kalamatianos circle dance, men and women and children can make up the 'chorus line' hand in hand - particularly among family and familiars.

    I think it is wonderful that traces - fun traces- of a Greek presence on the Italian mainland exist.
    You're quite welcome. As I said, I have an interest in it because of my husband's background.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR-cZ6IORIc

    These are Griko speakers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSktx_kr4ww

    As to the dance style, my reference was to ancient Greece, the Greece of the Dionysian festivals, not the Greece of the modern era, even loosely defined.

    The pizzica is basically the specific Salento version of the tarantella. That is thought to have originated in a dance ritual performed by women who had been bitten by a tarantula, and the dancing was to drive out the poison. As time passed, certain of the movements were incorporated into dances performed by women with women, and men with men, and eventually by women and men. In very recent times it has acquired a more theatrical aspect as it is often performed by professionals.

    "Pizzica originated as the music of tarantismo, a cultural phenomenon peculiar to Salento that, according to researcher Giorgio Di Lecce, dates back to the sixth century. Its origins, scholars say, lie in ecstatic Dionysian worship rites.Tarantismo employed music and dance in a symbolic ritual to cure peasants, mainly women, from maladies purportedly caused by the poisonous bite of the tarantula. (Pizzica derives from pizzicare, meaning to bite or sting.) The afflicted would dance, to the point of collapsing, to the frenetic rhythms of the pizzica songs played by a small group that included tamburello (frame drum), violin, chitarra battente (a large four- or five-string guitar indigenous to Southern Italy), and organetto (a type of accordion)."

    The older woman in this video is performing a more traditional version of the pizzica.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-UHk-7uoFI

    This couple out in the piazza are not professionals. This is the way people dance it today, in what could loosely be called the "courtship" style, I think. (There are other types, including some between men which mimes a sword fight.) It's not the version of their great-grandparents, but it's still descended from it. That's reflected in part by the fact that for all the sexual tension between the man and the woman in this dance, he never touches her. Apparently, in the past, if you touched her you married her. :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsV93f8f-VY

    Anyway, I've taken us off topic, so I'll stop here. :) In fact, I may move this discussion to a dedicated thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Would be interested in a link to the Report cited above. Would like to see its conclusions.

    As to the quote of 'only Greeks' in Greece, that is national policy. The Turks have the same view. So, it should not be surprising that knowledge of Greek is what the schools and official entities would emphasize. What people do in their homes is their own business.
    I can't link because this can cause to me an another infraction. But you know very well the story of your country.
    About the policy followed by your country and Turkey, i agree with you. You are neighbouring countries, stessa faccia, stessa razza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    If there's one thing i can not understand is how exactly can be considered to quote one of the leading experts of the nineteenth century, a person who has personally visited Greece as Fallmerayer, a provocation, and against the rules of this forum. And from the other hand you allow a person as Yetos that in all his posts attacks the Albanians with a vulgar vocabulary, the last in this thread. I can do a whole thread with the offenses of Yetos against my people. The way you operate as a moderator is unheard.
    Please, make a black list with the authors that you don't like.
    No one was issued an infraction for referring to this outdated scholar or his ideas. You were issued an infraction for finding and posting quotes from him deliberately designed to bolster your theories that there are no Greeks, just Albanians who learned Greek, which is the kind of ultra-nationalist attack on another ethnicity which seems to be the hallmark of Balkan discussions, certainly on anthrofora, and which leads to insults, flame wars, and other mayhem.

    This thread is not going to be used for that purpose. Am I clear?

    The Albanians were not even included in the study. There were two points being made: the people of the Peloponnese are not transplanted "Slavs" mixed with newly arrived "Turks", and there are strong genetic similarities between the people of the Peloponesse and the Sicilians. Period. The method of proving that was genetics.

    That's what we do here; discuss genetics, not some half-baked fantasy of an early 19th century German which was based on his totally subjective "observations" and which are contradicted by actual documentation. Those days are over, just like the days when people could claim that the Bosniaks are Turks in disguise, no matter how much some people may not like it.

    These questions are going to be resolved by genetics one way or another, not by nationalist myths. Whatever the science shows, it will show. I'm perfectly happy with that as regards my own ethnicity. The people of the Balkans had better accustom themselves to it as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    That is disappointing Angela, your 'basically in agreement' gives credence to his Albanian massive waves trope, which disappeared by 1821 per Turkish viewpoint at least the 'massive' aspect. As I stated in my earliest post here, would that the authors had included an Albanian comparison! Perhaps a reliable Albanian autosomal DNA test group doesn't exist?

    But then it seems that the FYROM crowd would not be satisfied with that comparison if it could be made as (speculating here, but not much) the true Albanian Admixture is simply the Greek admixture, regardless of location.
    Good grief, so Nik is Albanian too, not Swiss? So, that's a false flag he's flying? How do you people keep track of these things? How many games are being played under the surface? You know what, I don't want to know. This is why I don't frequent anthrofora.

    What massive Albanian waves?

    What I was agreeing with is that the genetic similarity between Greece (specifically here Peloponnese) and Sicily in particular would have many sources, the Neolithic movements, the Bronze Age, and, of course, the period of settlement of Magna Graecia. I thought and think that "Nik" is clearly minimizing its effect. There is also gene flow going the other way, although it may not have had the same kind of effect.

    Separating out which alleles came when and specifically with whom might be very difficult even with dstats and ancient samples.

    How could anyone who has been studying these things disagree with that? The Albereshe certainly did come to various areas of southern Italy, but their influence would be several orders of magnitude smaller because these were small movements of people. Again, their dna is heavily Neolithic and has been impacted by Bronze Age migrations, so it might be difficult to pinpoint exact percentages.

    People have got to become accustomed to the idea that modern population/ethnic groups didn't exist in antiquity, much less back in the Bronze or Neolithic. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No one was issued an infraction for referring to this outdated scholar or his ideas. You were issued an infraction for finding and posting quotes from him deliberately designed to bolster your theories that there are no Greeks, just Albanians who learned Greek, which is the kind of ultra-nationalist attack on another ethnicity which seems to be the hallmark of Balkan discussions, certainly on anthrofora, and which leads to insults, flame wars, and other mayhem.

    This thread is not going to be used for that purpose. Am I clear?

    The Albanians were not even included in the study. There were two points being made: the people of the Peloponnese are not transplanted "Slavs" mixed with newly arrived "Turks", and there are strong genetic similarities between the people of the Peloponesse and the Sicilians. Period. The method of proving that was genetics.

    That's what we do here; discuss genetics, not some half-baked fantasy of an early 19th century German which was based on his totally subjective "observations" and which are contradicted by actual documentation. Those days are over, just like the days when people could claim that the Bosniaks are Turks in disguise, no matter how much some people may not like it.

    These questions are going to be resolved by genetics one way or another, not by nationalist myths. Whatever the science shows, it will show. I'm perfectly happy with that as regards my own ethnicity. The people of the Balkans had better accustom themselves to it as well.
    Who decide if a scholar is outdated? If you have an list with outdated and forbiden authors, please post it. So in the future we can avoid to use this authors.
    The quote from Fallmerayer was not just an random quote, is his conclusion after he visited Greece personally. I doubt if someone here has visited Greece in year 1832, he was there.
    About the rest of the post of half-baked fantasies, etc,let me tell you something.
    If from all the historical credibile sources, the population of country is half Albanian and majority of this people can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If 90% of the heroes of the liberation war are Albanians. If the first President, Vice President of the country, the Speaker of the Parliament, are Albanians and can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If the speeches of the members of the Parliament are always in Albanian. Then what name you give to this country? How the genetic explain all this situation?
    Last edited by LABERIA; 10-03-17 at 00:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Who decide if a scholar is outdated? If you have an list with outdated and forbiden authors, please post it. So in the future we can avoid to use this authors.
    The quote from Fallmerayer was not just an random quote, is his conclusion after he visited Greece personally. I doubt if someone here has visited Greece in year 1832, he was there.
    About the rest of the post of half-baked fantasies, etc,let me tell you something.
    If from all the historical credibile sources, the population of country is half Albanian and majority of this people can speak only Albanian and not another language. If 90%of the heroes of the liberation war are Albanians. If the first President, Vice President of the country, the Speaker of the Parliament, are Albanians and can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If the speeches of the members of the Parliament are always in Albanian. Then what name you give to this country? How the genetic explain all this situation?
    This is your last warning. This thread is not about the Albanians or a comparison of Albanians and Greeks. Get back on topic.

    Claims about "ethnicity" are to be based on genetics for the most part. Historical documentation, if the claims can be proved, are obviously helpful, but that's about it.

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    Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks

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    Funny isn't it?

    after the atrocities against Arbanites at the times of Orlov's revolt,
    seems someones today remember them forgeting the past,

    and although all official clubs and unions of Arbanites estimate them today about 150-200 000,
    some believe they are millions,

    reading Fallmayer and A Kolla seems to be not good idea for the brain.
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    I was always wondering different Greek people. Now thanks for that. Cappadocian, Pontos, Asia Minor and Peloponnese. Just Cappadocian and Pontos are more far then I thought and it is good to see that clear borders between Pontic-Cappadocian then Peloponnese, not like West Asian and Peloponnese.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry but I didn't get how it is relevant with medieval Peloponnesean Greeks, and the similarity of Peloponnesean Greeks(1800's) and Sicilians-South Italian

    If you want to deny the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, you have to check current Peloponnesean and medievals, not like it.

    I agree these words

    "Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters."




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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks
    Search infos about Arbereshe peoples in South Italy and Sicily.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    A key of answer is surely the aDNA; I would think bronze age populations of South Italy and Greece were close together, not just Magna Grecia, not just Roman settlements to Greece, not just Eastern Roman Empire input and not just Athens and Neopatria under Sicilian control in 1300-1400, or Corf under Neapolitan control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks
    I'll direct you to the appropriate threads, but any discussion of it would be off topic.

    You're free, of course, to comment in these dedicated threads.

    See:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe

    You'll find links in those threads to studies of the Arbereshe by Italian scholars.

    Generally as to the Arberesh, if many of them came from southern Albania and even parts of Greece, and given the similar population movements that affected all these areas, including southern Italy and Sicily, I think attempts to distinguish these people autosomally are going to be a bit difficult.

    I don't think dodecad project was ever able to get Albanians for the project, but perhaps Eurogenes included them. Unfortunately I don't have a link to the "national" results sheet, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Funny isn't it?

    after the atrocities against Arbanites at the times of Orlov's revolt,
    seems someones today remember them forgeting the past,

    and although all official clubs and unions of Arbanites estimate them today about 150-200 000,
    some believe they are millions,

    reading Fallmayer and A Kolla seems to be not good idea for the brain.
    You cut it out, too. Any more of this stuff and I'll start handing out infractions like Easter chocolates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'll direct you to the appropriate threads, but any discussion of it would be off topic.

    You're free, of course, to comment in these dedicated threads.

    See:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe

    You'll find links in those threads to studies of the Arbereshe by Italian scholars.

    Generally as to the Arberesh, if many of them came from southern Albania and even parts of Greece, and given the similar population movements that affected all these areas, including southern Italy and Sicily, I think attempts to distinguish these people autosomally are going to be a bit difficult.

    I don't think dodecad project was ever able to get Albanians for the project, but perhaps Eurogenes included them. Unfortunately I don't have a link to the "national" results sheet, but perhaps someone else can chime in.
    I'd just add that any Albanians who have tested with 23andme or other companies and run their data through the Gedmatch calculators could compare themselves to the Greek sample, which in most cases is from Thessaly unless otherwise labeled.

    You might also want to take a look at this, which gives some idea, although AIMS are also an outmoded and not totally reliable measure.
    http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/articl...115-3/abstract

    "The results were compared to other population samples previously typed for the same markers. The panel of AIMs was capable of differentiating the Albanian population from other population groups except for the Greek population. These results were expected due to the history and the geographical proximity of Albania and Greece."

    There don't seem to be very many Albanian samples at all, certainly not any released for use by labs, which is undoubtedly why they're not included in these studies.

  23. #73
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    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I question any study of the Peloponnese without first analyzing or explaining the Arvanita element. This study, even if it has any validity, is therefore flawed.

  24. #74
    Regular Member last-resort's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (R-L2)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellenic
    Country: United States



    I prepared the list below based on this link

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso..._dodecad.shtml


    Distribution maps of autosomal admixtures in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa


    Edit: The list below assumes the existence of an autosomal DNA database for Albania; but if the maps were not prepared using same, then this list is no better than the fancy maps from which it is derived. end-Edit.

    The list shows the values (or no difference) between Greeks and Albanians, respectively. The values represent a range (not shown), so that for example '80' is a range that is actually 80-90 in this case. I thought it enough to show a difference.

    The values with a '/' denote a region in the country with a different value. Edit: The first value is always the most southern. As such, these reflect a gradient within the country. end-Edit.

    If I made an error it is unintentional and related to interpreting the colors differences.

    I marked those categories with differences by an * prefix.

    To me, it would seem that there is a difference in the two countries' admixtures. It would be useful if the authors of the Stamatoyannopoulos paper would issue a supplemental report to assess these differences for the Peloponnesean populations. (After he explains the fig a and b apparent discrepancy.)

    Greece Albania
    *Early European Farmer (EEF) 80 70
    *Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) 5/7.5 10
    West European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) no diff 5
    *Northwest European admixture 5/10 15
    East European admixture no diff 10
    Mediterranean admixture no diff 50?
    West Asian admixture no diff 20
    Atlantic admixture no diff 5
    Atlantic_Med admixture no diff 15?
    Caucasian admixture no diff 20
    *Gedrosian admixture 2.5 2.5/5 upper half
    Southwest Asian admixture no diff 5
    Red Sea (Horn of Africa) admixture no diff 2.5
    African admixture no diff 0.5
    East Asian admixture no diff < 0.5
    Last edited by last-resort; 10-03-17 at 20:59.

  25. #75
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I don't know what reference populations were used, but that's also what the academic study using AIMS showed: minimal differences between Greeks and Albanians. That's also what can be seen in numerous academic studies. I didn't say that researchers haven't collected and used Albanian samples. However, samples were often not made public in the past for certain populations, i.e. if samples weren't collected as part of the HGDP or 1000 genomes projects, so some of the gedmatch calculators don't have them.

    See: Novembre et al. Click to enlarge. The Albanian samples overlap most of the Greek ones.
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...07331-f1.2.jpg
    See: Haak et al
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re13673-f2.jpg

    Generally, as far as Italian populations are concerned, Tuscans are closer to Albanians, and North Italians to Bulgarians. The differences are more substantial, however.

    Of course, a lot of studies used to use only one small Greek sample, the one taken, I believe, in Thessaly.* Of course, being an academic sample, care would have been taken to make sure that all four grandparents came from the area, so, almost certainly, grandparents born before 1920. That's the standard protocol for genetics studies. Still, it's one very small group from, I believe, one area in the very north of the country, in a very heterogeneous country, with, as the authors imply, a north/south cline not unlike Italy's. There might indeed be more of a difference between Albanians and people of the Peleponnesse, but that's just a guess.

    *If anyone has a cite to a study which answers that question, that would be very much appreciated.

    While you're waiting for the answer to that question, I'm sure there are Albanians who have tested and have run their raw data through gedmatch.com calculators. If they've posted anywhere, anyone can go to dodecad, for one, and compare against these northern Greeks. That should give a rough idea.

    @last-resort,
    There is no discrepancy, to my knowledge, in the two PCAs. That's how PCA works. There are going to be slight differences depending on the populations being compared, or, in the "universe". If someone knows differently, please correct the record.

    People, there are threads on Albanian genetics. Use them for detailed discussions. Find them through the search engine.
    Last edited by Angela; 10-03-17 at 03:33.

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