Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.

I agree, he has a look that is seen among Greeks. Most Greeks are not very close to Middle Easterners as far as I have seen, but there is a little overlap between the Aegean Turkish coast and Peloponnese, in this study. The authors argue that Asia Minor people were not brought in to replace Greeks who might have disappeared by the time the Slavs settled in the Peloponnese.
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The Tsakonians appear to be interesting. They are separated from the Peloponnesian cluster in the PC map, in which Deep Mani occupies the southern end. It is said or theorized somewhere that Tsakonians came to Arcadia from east Laconia, escaping some invasion and bringing their Doric dialect with them. But Deep Mani, also in Laconia and historically considered to be different than the rest of the Peloponnese (Mani was another refuge for Greeks escaping invasions), is quite different than Tsakonians. So maybe Tsakonians are indigenous in east Arcadia and a different “tribe” of Greek speakers than the Deep Mani ancestors?
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PCAs are not meant to be taken 100% literally all the time. In amatuer calculators Tsakonians are similar to Maniotes.
All old Greek tribes were strongly related to each other IMO. Unless they were mixed with something else like Anatolians.
Sicilians, in that PCA overlap with Taygetos.
In the Cretan study, Maniotes and Tsakonians fill the gap by overlapping with Abruzzes, Apulians (I suspect even though they are missing) and northernmost Sicilians.
 
I agree, he has a look that is seen among Greeks. Most Greeks are not very close to Middle Easterners as far as I have seen, but there is a little overlap between the Aegean Turkish coast and Peloponnese, in this study. The authors argue that Asia Minor people were not brought in to replace Greeks who might have disappeared by the time the Slavs settled in the Peloponnese.
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The only Greek populations close to Middle Easterners are those in Anatolia and Caucasus regions. It's Greek as a cultural identity although there is evidence that those same populations have shared Greek genetic ties.Eastern Aegean Islanders can show up with a Levantine (Druze for instance)population in their top 20, however, it's pretty remote. Cypriots vary as well some shifting towards the Levant others toward the Dodacanese Islands.
 
I didn't say there is anything wrong with it but you have to say he doesn't look "european", we need to understand from you greeks what did the ancient greeks look like because you can't seem to decide. For me, that guy looks typical middle eastern and you will find a lot similar in turkey because the history of the ottoman is a continuation of the islamic caliphates before it. They spoke arabic and persian as did most of the middle east by that point so migration from middle east would have been quite common, especially in terms of joining their "army"
Which would you say are the true original Greek y dna that have carried into today?
Don't forget greeks and persians share a history of j2a so with that you have to be careful when deciding which sub clades in greeks today are carried from ancient greeks and which are from possible ottoman settlement/deployment

First of all I'm not a big fan of phenotypic analysis because it's so subjective and can be absurd at times but physiognomy within the Greek population varies drastically. "Greek" is and has always been a cultural identity first so it's difficult to compare the genetic identity of someone from Greek Cappadocia with someone from say Greek Epirus (extreme distance).Likewise when were talking phenotypes the same could be said about "typical regional" looks. Albanians are obviously more homogeneous because there wasn't ever any sort of Albanian cultural expansion.As far as 'looking Euro" that's a pretty absurd notion.
 
First of all I'm not a big fan of phenotypic analysis because it's so subjective and can be absurd at times but physiognomy within the Greek population varies drastically. "Greek" is and has always been a cultural identity first so it's difficult to compare the genetic identity of someone from Greek Cappadocia with someone from say Greek Epirus (extreme distance).Likewise when were talking phenotypes the same could be said about "typical regional" looks. Albanians are obviously more homogeneous because there wasn't ever any sort of Albanian cultural expansion.As far as 'looking Euro" that's a pretty absurd notion.

It is very true. I have blond/blue eyed relatives on both sides of my family (my father, sister) and blond/ginger hair on my mother's side. But my mother, my other sister and I have dark hair/dark eyes and look Med. There are Cretans that have dark hair and blue eyes. Pontian Greeks tend to be have darker hair and eyes.
 
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It is very true. I have blond/blue eyed relatives on both sides of my family (my father, sister) and blond/ginger hair on my mother's side. But my mother, my other sister and I have dark hair/dark eyes and look Med. There are Cretans that have dark hair and blue eyes. Pontian Greeks tend to be have darker hair and eyes.

Which y dna have you found in your family so far?

Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now
 
Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now

Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.
 
Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now

R1b-M269. I think that the ancient Greek invaders might have been a bit more light haired than the local Pelasgians but unless we get some DNA samples analyzed we might never know. Greece and the Eastern Balkans were invaded by a lot of different people including the Celts, Romans, Ostrogoths, Alans, Avars, Slavs, Bulgarians, etc. So there might a bit of a mixture. Then there were the Praetorian guards that were rewarded with land for faithful service.
 
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Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.

How do you know that isn't more recent admixture, possibly Slavic? Which I think it a lot more probable, than suggesting that Neolithic people, especially from Greece, would have light features. Maybe EEF in the west of Europe with more WHG, may have had some blue eyes. But I doubt the Eastern European farmer could have had it commonly.
 
Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now

Yes, the academics working on the Mycenean paper from 2017 have concluded that. I think most people have already assumed that as well.

You have yet to see evidence? Have you missed the paper?

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310
 
Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now

I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.
 
I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.

FWIW, most Greeks have shifted relatively less than Bulgarians, from their original position on the PCA.
 
How do you know that isn't more recent admixture, possibly Slavic? Which I think it a lot more probable, than suggesting that Neolithic people, especially from Greece, would have light features. Maybe EEF in the west of Europe with more WHG, may have had some blue eyes. But I doubt the Eastern European farmer could have had it commonly.

Never said that Neolithics in Greece had light hair, light eyes I realize the consensus is that they were dark haired/dark eyed but do we really know what they looked like? it's all based on simulation. Based on those same simulations WHG were actually darker (in terms of skin tone) than Early Farmers right?
 
Never said that Neolithics in Greece had light hair, light eyes I realize the consensus is that they were dark haired/dark eyed but do we really know what they looked like? it's all based on simulation. Based on those same simulations WHG were actually darker (in terms of skin tone) than Early Farmers right?

Yes, WHGs did have dark skin according to what they found with Cheddar man.
 
I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.

I think the Illyrians from Albania will be similar to Maniots/Tsakonians probably, or Central-Southern Italians, autosomally i mean.
 
I think the Illyrians from Albania will be similar to Maniots/Tsakonians probably, or Central-Southern Italians, autosomally i mean.

illyrians came from central Europe, Hungary-Romania area. Why should they be generically close to Peloponnesus. It makes more sense they were generically close to Romanians. I mean Bronx age Illyrians. As time went by they mixed as everyone did.
 
Isn't that based on just 4 samples?
So what, the discovery of Denisovan, an entire branch of humanity, was based on a single tooth.

Do you know of any other elite burials from the Mycenaean period?
 

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