Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

If there's one thing i can not understand is how exactly can be considered to quote one of the leading experts of the nineteenth century, a person who has personally visited Greece as Fallmerayer, a provocation, and against the rules of this forum. And from the other hand you allow a person as Yetos that in all his posts attacks the Albanians with a vulgar vocabulary, the last in this thread. I can do a whole thread with the offenses of Yetos against my people. The way you operate as a moderator is unheard.
Please, make a black list with the authors that you don't like.

No one was issued an infraction for referring to this outdated scholar or his ideas. You were issued an infraction for finding and posting quotes from him deliberately designed to bolster your theories that there are no Greeks, just Albanians who learned Greek, which is the kind of ultra-nationalist attack on another ethnicity which seems to be the hallmark of Balkan discussions, certainly on anthrofora, and which leads to insults, flame wars, and other mayhem.

This thread is not going to be used for that purpose. Am I clear?

The Albanians were not even included in the study. There were two points being made: the people of the Peloponnese are not transplanted "Slavs" mixed with newly arrived "Turks", and there are strong genetic similarities between the people of the Peloponesse and the Sicilians. Period. The method of proving that was genetics.

That's what we do here; discuss genetics, not some half-baked fantasy of an early 19th century German which was based on his totally subjective "observations" and which are contradicted by actual documentation. Those days are over, just like the days when people could claim that the Bosniaks are Turks in disguise, no matter how much some people may not like it.

These questions are going to be resolved by genetics one way or another, not by nationalist myths. Whatever the science shows, it will show. I'm perfectly happy with that as regards my own ethnicity. The people of the Balkans had better accustom themselves to it as well.
 
That is disappointing Angela, your 'basically in agreement' gives credence to his Albanian massive waves trope, which disappeared by 1821 per Turkish viewpoint at least the 'massive' aspect. As I stated in my earliest post here, would that the authors had included an Albanian comparison! Perhaps a reliable Albanian autosomal DNA test group doesn't exist?

But then it seems that the FYROM crowd would not be satisfied with that comparison if it could be made as (speculating here, but not much) the true Albanian Admixture is simply the Greek admixture, regardless of location.

Good grief, so Nik is Albanian too, not Swiss? So, that's a false flag he's flying? How do you people keep track of these things? How many games are being played under the surface? You know what, I don't want to know. This is why I don't frequent anthrofora.

What massive Albanian waves?

What I was agreeing with is that the genetic similarity between Greece (specifically here Peloponnese) and Sicily in particular would have many sources, the Neolithic movements, the Bronze Age, and, of course, the period of settlement of Magna Graecia. I thought and think that "Nik" is clearly minimizing its effect. There is also gene flow going the other way, although it may not have had the same kind of effect.

Separating out which alleles came when and specifically with whom might be very difficult even with dstats and ancient samples.

How could anyone who has been studying these things disagree with that? The Albereshe certainly did come to various areas of southern Italy, but their influence would be several orders of magnitude smaller because these were small movements of people. Again, their dna is heavily Neolithic and has been impacted by Bronze Age migrations, so it might be difficult to pinpoint exact percentages.

People have got to become accustomed to the idea that modern population/ethnic groups didn't exist in antiquity, much less back in the Bronze or Neolithic. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.
 
No one was issued an infraction for referring to this outdated scholar or his ideas. You were issued an infraction for finding and posting quotes from him deliberately designed to bolster your theories that there are no Greeks, just Albanians who learned Greek, which is the kind of ultra-nationalist attack on another ethnicity which seems to be the hallmark of Balkan discussions, certainly on anthrofora, and which leads to insults, flame wars, and other mayhem.

This thread is not going to be used for that purpose. Am I clear?

The Albanians were not even included in the study. There were two points being made: the people of the Peloponnese are not transplanted "Slavs" mixed with newly arrived "Turks", and there are strong genetic similarities between the people of the Peloponesse and the Sicilians. Period. The method of proving that was genetics.

That's what we do here; discuss genetics, not some half-baked fantasy of an early 19th century German which was based on his totally subjective "observations" and which are contradicted by actual documentation. Those days are over, just like the days when people could claim that the Bosniaks are Turks in disguise, no matter how much some people may not like it.

These questions are going to be resolved by genetics one way or another, not by nationalist myths. Whatever the science shows, it will show. I'm perfectly happy with that as regards my own ethnicity. The people of the Balkans had better accustom themselves to it as well.

Who decide if a scholar is outdated? If you have an list with outdated and forbiden authors, please post it. So in the future we can avoid to use this authors.
The quote from Fallmerayer was not just an random quote, is his conclusion after he visited Greece personally. I doubt if someone here has visited Greece in year 1832, he was there.
About the rest of the post of half-baked fantasies, etc,let me tell you something.
If from all the historical credibile sources, the population of country is half Albanian and majority of this people can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If 90% of the heroes of the liberation war are Albanians. If the first President, Vice President of the country, the Speaker of the Parliament, are Albanians and can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If the speeches of the members of the Parliament are always in Albanian. Then what name you give to this country? How the genetic explain all this situation?
 
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Who decide if a scholar is outdated? If you have an list with outdated and forbiden authors, please post it. So in the future we can avoid to use this authors.
The quote from Fallmerayer was not just an random quote, is his conclusion after he visited Greece personally. I doubt if someone here has visited Greece in year 1832, he was there.
About the rest of the post of half-baked fantasies, etc,let me tell you something.
If from all the historical credibile sources, the population of country is half Albanian and majority of this people can speak only Albanian and not another language. If 90%of the heroes of the liberation war are Albanians. If the first President, Vice President of the country, the Speaker of the Parliament, are Albanians and can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If the speeches of the members of the Parliament are always in Albanian. Then what name you give to this country? How the genetic explain all this situation?

This is your last warning. This thread is not about the Albanians or a comparison of Albanians and Greeks. Get back on topic.

Claims about "ethnicity" are to be based on genetics for the most part. Historical documentation, if the claims can be proved, are obviously helpful, but that's about it.
 
Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks
 
Funny isn't it?

after the atrocities against Arbanites at the times of Orlov's revolt,
seems someones today remember them forgeting the past,

and although all official clubs and unions of Arbanites estimate them today about 150-200 000,
some believe they are millions,

reading Fallmayer and A Kolla seems to be not good idea for the brain.
 
ejhg201718f3.jpg


I was always wondering different Greek people. Now thanks for that. Cappadocian, Pontos, Asia Minor and Peloponnese. Just Cappadocian and Pontos are more far then I thought and it is good to see that clear borders between Pontic-Cappadocian then Peloponnese, not like West Asian and Peloponnese.

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Sorry but I didn't get how it is relevant with medieval Peloponnesean Greeks, and the similarity of Peloponnesean Greeks(1800's) and Sicilians-South Italian

If you want to deny the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, you have to check current Peloponnesean and medievals, not like it.

I agree these words

"Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters."



 
Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks
Search infos about Arbereshe peoples in South Italy and Sicily.
 
A key of answer is surely the aDNA; I would think bronze age populations of South Italy and Greece were close together, not just Magna Grecia, not just Roman settlements to Greece, not just Eastern Roman Empire input and not just Athens and Neopatria under Sicilian control in 1300-1400, or Corf? under Neapolitan control.
 
Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks

I'll direct you to the appropriate threads, but any discussion of it would be off topic.

You're free, of course, to comment in these dedicated threads.

See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30539-The-Arbereshe-Communities-of-Italy?highlight=Arbereshe

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30539-The-Arbereshe-Communities-of-Italy?highlight=Arbereshe

You'll find links in those threads to studies of the Arbereshe by Italian scholars.

Generally as to the Arberesh, if many of them came from southern Albania and even parts of Greece, and given the similar population movements that affected all these areas, including southern Italy and Sicily, I think attempts to distinguish these people autosomally are going to be a bit difficult.

I don't think dodecad project was ever able to get Albanians for the project, but perhaps Eurogenes included them. Unfortunately I don't have a link to the "national" results sheet, but perhaps someone else can chime in.
 
Funny isn't it?

after the atrocities against Arbanites at the times of Orlov's revolt,
seems someones today remember them forgeting the past,

and although all official clubs and unions of Arbanites estimate them today about 150-200 000,
some believe they are millions,

reading Fallmayer and A Kolla seems to be not good idea for the brain.

You cut it out, too. Any more of this stuff and I'll start handing out infractions like Easter chocolates.
 
I'll direct you to the appropriate threads, but any discussion of it would be off topic.

You're free, of course, to comment in these dedicated threads.

See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30539-The-Arbereshe-Communities-of-Italy?highlight=Arbereshe

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30539-The-Arbereshe-Communities-of-Italy?highlight=Arbereshe

You'll find links in those threads to studies of the Arbereshe by Italian scholars.

Generally as to the Arberesh, if many of them came from southern Albania and even parts of Greece, and given the similar population movements that affected all these areas, including southern Italy and Sicily, I think attempts to distinguish these people autosomally are going to be a bit difficult.

I don't think dodecad project was ever able to get Albanians for the project, but perhaps Eurogenes included them. Unfortunately I don't have a link to the "national" results sheet, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

I'd just add that any Albanians who have tested with 23andme or other companies and run their data through the Gedmatch calculators could compare themselves to the Greek sample, which in most cases is from Thessaly unless otherwise labeled.

You might also want to take a look at this, which gives some idea, although AIMS are also an outmoded and not totally reliable measure.
http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30115-3/abstract

[FONT=&quot]"The results were compared to other population samples previously typed for the same markers. The panel of AIMs was capable of differentiating the Albanian population from other population groups except for the Greek population. These results were expected due to the history and the geographical proximity of Albania and Greece."

[/FONT]
There don't seem to be very many Albanian samples at all, certainly not any released for use by labs, which is undoubtedly why they're not included in these studies.
 
I question any study of the Peloponnese without first analyzing or explaining the Arvanita element. This study, even if it has any validity, is therefore flawed.
 
I prepared the list below based on this link

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml


Distribution maps of autosomal admixtures in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa


Edit: The list below assumes the existence of an autosomal DNA database for Albania; but if the maps were not prepared using same, then this list is no better than the fancy maps from which it is derived. end-Edit.

The list shows the values (or no difference) between Greeks and Albanians, respectively. The values represent a range (not shown), so that for example '80' is a range that is actually 80-90 in this case. I thought it enough to show a difference.

The values with a '/' denote a region in the country with a different value. Edit: The first value is always the most southern. As such, these reflect a gradient within the country. end-Edit.

If I made an error it is unintentional and related to interpreting the colors differences.

I marked those categories with differences by an * prefix.

To me, it would seem that there is a difference in the two countries' admixtures. It would be useful if the authors of the Stamatoyannopoulos paper would issue a supplemental report to assess these differences for the Peloponnesean populations. (After he explains the fig a and b apparent discrepancy.)

Greece Albania
*Early European Farmer (EEF) 80 70
*Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) 5/7.5 10
West European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) no diff 5
*Northwest European admixture 5/10 15
East European admixture no diff 10
Mediterranean admixture no diff 50?
West Asian admixture no diff 20
Atlantic admixture no diff 5
Atlantic_Med admixture no diff 15?
Caucasian admixture no diff 20
*Gedrosian admixture 2.5 2.5/5 upper half
Southwest Asian admixture no diff 5
Red Sea (Horn of Africa) admixture no diff 2.5
African admixture no diff 0.5
East Asian admixture no diff < 0.5
 
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I don't know what reference populations were used, but that's also what the academic study using AIMS showed: minimal differences between Greeks and Albanians. That's also what can be seen in numerous academic studies. I didn't say that researchers haven't collected and used Albanian samples. However, samples were often not made public in the past for certain populations, i.e. if samples weren't collected as part of the HGDP or 1000 genomes projects, so some of the gedmatch calculators don't have them.

See: Novembre et al. Click to enlarge. The Albanian samples overlap most of the Greek ones.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7218/images/nature07331-f1.2.jpg
See: Haak et al
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images_article/nature13673-f2.jpg

Generally, as far as Italian populations are concerned, Tuscans are closer to Albanians, and North Italians to Bulgarians. The differences are more substantial, however.

Of course, a lot of studies used to use only one small Greek sample, the one taken, I believe, in Thessaly.* Of course, being an academic sample, care would have been taken to make sure that all four grandparents came from the area, so, almost certainly, grandparents born before 1920. That's the standard protocol for genetics studies. Still, it's one very small group from, I believe, one area in the very north of the country, in a very heterogeneous country, with, as the authors imply, a north/south cline not unlike Italy's. There might indeed be more of a difference between Albanians and people of the Peleponnesse, but that's just a guess.

*If anyone has a cite to a study which answers that question, that would be very much appreciated.

While you're waiting for the answer to that question, I'm sure there are Albanians who have tested and have run their raw data through gedmatch.com calculators. If they've posted anywhere, anyone can go to dodecad, for one, and compare against these northern Greeks. That should give a rough idea.

@last-resort,
There is no discrepancy, to my knowledge, in the two PCAs. That's how PCA works. There are going to be slight differences depending on the populations being compared, or, in the "universe". If someone knows differently, please correct the record.

People, there are threads on Albanian genetics. Use them for detailed discussions. Find them through the search engine.
 
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Something interesting in the Supplement. The Sicilians don't actually overlap most closely with the major Maniot cluster. The closest match on the PCA, anyway, is with "East Tay", except for two outliers.
Peloponesse and Sicily PCA.PNG
 
ejhg201718f3.jpg


I was always wondering different Greek people. Now thanks for that. Cappadocian, Pontos, Asia Minor and Peloponnese. Just Cappadocian and Pontos are more far then I thought and it is good to see that clear borders between Pontic-Cappadocian then Peloponnese, not like West Asian and Peloponnese.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry but I didn't get how it is relevant with medieval Peloponnesean Greeks, and the similarity of Peloponnesean Greeks(1800's) and Sicilians-South Italian

If you want to deny the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, you have to check current Peloponnesean and medievals, not like it.

I agree these words

"Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters."






Indeed that is something I also observed,

cause Kapadokia was not heavily colonised, but Pontos was,
and the study gives first connection with Kappadokia,
but Pontos was another tribe Ionia and not Doric ,

I expect Pontos to be more connected with Athens Miletos and central Greece.

Pontos is a mix of Greek colonies of Ionians and Aryan-Iranian tribes,
the unification happened after Alexander and the first king was a Persian satrape Μιθριδατης Mithridates
 
Angela, thank you for the Griko notes and the pizzica orientation. I understood a few words of the Griko song.

As to the pizzica dance, it is unfamiliar to me. Most Greek dances featuring women are sedate and almost always in 3 or more dancing. (My limited experience.) Even the 'belly dance' tsifteteli while it has a lot of hip swinging, the feet do not move nearly as much as what i saw in the pizzica. And I've never seen such twirling. Having said that, Greek culture is very vast, it is not for me to rule it out.

As for the town square dance, male-female dancing - as pairs - is quite rare in traditional Greek dancing. I saw a dance troop -non Greeks - purport to show a Greek dance featuring paired dancing. However, in the Kalamatianos circle dance, men and women and children can make up the 'chorus line' hand in hand - particularly among family and familiars.

I think it is wonderful that traces - fun traces- of a Greek presence on the Italian mainland exist.

tsifteteli is not a Greek dance , it is Anatolian or Turkish, but stayed as permanent to Greek culture.
Zeimpekiko is a Frygian dance,
and indeed 99,% of Greek dances are circle dances
 
Something interesting in the Supplement. The Sicilians don't actually overlap most closely with the major Maniot cluster. The closest match on the PCA, anyway, is with "East Tay", except for two outliers.
View attachment 8552
Quite interesting, I want to see a comparison between Siracusa and Corinto and between Messina and Messenia who were the two most Peloponneseans colonies of Sikelia and by the most important of Megale Hellas.
 
"Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks."

Very little. The two communities were almost segregated on the basis of religion, as Greeks were Christians the Ottomans were Muslims. Intermarriages were not allowed and whoever converted to Islam automatically joined the Ottoman community, regardless of their ethnic origin. In fact, the offspring of those few converts had to leave and resettle in Turkey with the population exchange program that took place in the 1920s.

"How could you believe this study?"

I can believe it because it is a peer review study, conducted by a reputable istitution and published in a scientific publication, not an uninformed opinion based on superficial knowledge.

 

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