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    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    See:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718a.html

    George Stamatoyannopoulos et al:
    Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks

    "Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

    Well, that's always what's made sense to me, so...


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    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. " These were also all people from rural villages.

    That's the way it should be done.

    ADMIXTURE results:
    The Peloponnese population is south of Tuscans, and Sicily and the Peloponnese overlap. It's what I have been proposing for years, but I think some anthrofora posters are going to need smelling salts. :)

    It would have been nice to see a comparison to someplace like Campania. I wonder if there would be total overlap?

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

    "Sicilians and Italians serve as a bridge between Peloponneseans and other European populations (Basque, Andalusians and French). Slavic populations are placed far away from the Peloponneseans as are the Near Eastern populations. The latter are connected to the Peloponnesus via the islands of Crete and the Dodecanese."

    " The ADMIXTURE analysis of Figure 1e shows that the Maniots and Tsakones are clearly separated from each other and from all other Peloponnesean populations."

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    >>Cannot post quote here<< For those unfamiliar, the Maniots, as described here, are those people on the Mani peninsula ('deep Mani') and the population on the west and east sides of the Tayetos mountain. Edit: This is southeast (Mani) or east and northeast (the Tayetos) from the modern town of Kalamata (of the superb olive fame), and birthplace of the Greek independence revolution. FYI The Tsakones are on the east side of the Peloponnesus in apparently a somewhat isolated area.

    My maternal line is West Tayetos (classified as 'Maniot' -that is, part of - late in the study), so this is definitely interesting. I have cousins who are in the paternal line.

    >>Cannot post quote here<< All this leaves open the composition of Haplogroups between Maniots and any 'ancient DNA' that can be recovered.

    Also, it should be noted - regarding 'the ancient Greek religion', there is a decidedly pagan festival each year prior to Greek Orthodox Christian Lent (Triodion) in the village of Nedousa, which is West Tayetos. That town had a 'slavic' name, Megali Anastasova, until the 1920s.

    Also, I read elsewhere that the Slavs on the Tayetos were used by the Ottomans to guard certain passes there. I think it might be normal that such a role would isolate them from the mass of the 'regular' inhabitants.

    My only regret with the study is it would be greatly useful to compare these areas with the Albanians. The Albanians of FYROM (so-called, 'macedonians') are a huge nuisance with any Greek oriented site. Perhaps someone can take the study and do that comparison.

    Thank you Angela for posting this. I presume your interest is the Italian commonalities. I think you should be satisfied, cousin.
    Last edited by last-resort; 13-03-17 at 14:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    >>Cannot post quote here<< For those unfamiliar, the Maniots, as described here, are those people on the Mani peninsular ('deep Mani') and the population on the west and east sides of the Tayetos mountain. This is east (Mani) or northeast (the Tayetos) from the modern town of Kalamata (of the superb olive fame), and birthplace of the Greek independence revolution. FYI The Tsakones are on the east side of the Peloponnesus in apparently a somewhat isolated area.

    My maternal line is West Tayetos (classified as 'Maniot' -that is, part of - late in the study), so this is definitely interesting. I have cousins who are in the paternal line.

    >>Cannot post quote here<< All this leaves open the composition of Haplogroups between Maniots and any 'ancient DNA' that can be recovered.

    Also, it should be noted - regarding 'the ancient Greek religion', there is a decidedly pagan festival each year prior to Greek Orthodox Christian Lent in the village of Nedusa, which is West Tayetos. That town had a 'slavic' name, Megali Anastasova, until the 1920s.

    Also, I read elsewhere that the Slavs on the Tayetos were used by the Ottomans to guard certain passes there. I think it might be normal that such a role would isolate them from the mass of the 'regular' inhabitants.

    My only regret with the study is it would be greatly useful to compare these areas with the Albanians. The Albanians of FYROM (so-called, 'macedonians') are a huge nuisance with any Greek oriented site. Perhaps someone can take the study and do that comparison.

    Thank you Angela for posting this. I presume your interest is the Italian commonalities. I think you should be satisfied, cousin.
    Now, when Greeks tell me upon hearing my last name, as they always do, "Una faccia, una razza", I can say, yes, indeed, and the genetics proves it. :)

    My husband was always very interested in the commonalities between the Greeks and the southern Italians as some of his family were speaking Griko into the 19th century, and his paternal grandfather was born within sight of Greek ruins. He also was a Classics minor at university, Latin and Greek studies. So, very interested indeed.

    To be completely honest, though, I also like being right. :)

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    My understanding is that Mussolini closed the Greek language schools in Italy in the 1920s. I also read that even today, Griko has not been entirely eradicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now, when Greeks tell me upon hearing my last name, as they always do, "Una faccia, una razza", I can say, yes, indeed, and the genetics proves it. :)

    My husband was always very interested in the commonalities between the Greeks and the southern Italians as some of his family were speaking Griko into the 19th century, and his paternal grandfather was born within sight of Greek ruins. He also was a Classics minor at university, Latin and Greek studies. So, very interested indeed.

    To be completely honest, though, I also like being right. :)
    Me too, una faccia una razza is real, Greek ancestry in South Italy but we don't forget Roman/Italic settlements to Greek world. The Eastern Roman Empire survived until 1453 ;)
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. " These were also all people from rural villages.

    That's the way it should be done.

    ADMIXTURE results:
    The Peloponnese population is south of Tuscans, and Sicily and the Peloponnese overlap. It's what I have been proposing for years, but I think some anthrofora posters are going to need smelling salts. :)

    It would have been nice to see a comparison to someplace like Campania. I wonder if there would be total overlap?

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

    "Sicilians and Italians serve as a bridge between Peloponneseans and other European populations (Basque, Andalusians and French). Slavic populations are placed far away from the Peloponneseans as are the Near Eastern populations. The latter are connected to the Peloponnesus via the islands of Crete and the Dodecanese."

    " The ADMIXTURE analysis of Figure 1e shows that the Maniots and Tsakones are clearly separated from each other and from all other Peloponnesean populations."

    https://makedonika.files.wordpress.c...nes_ethnic.jpg

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    I believe that for Italians they think Southern Italians. No doubts that Peloponnesians have loads of overlap with Sicily and Southern Italy, loads of cities of Magna Grecia and Sikelia were from Messenia or Corinto just to say.

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    Good study, but too bad that they did not have any Proto-Slavic and Early Slavic ancient DNA samples.

    Instead they had to rely on comparisons with modern populations. This might change soon, because samples from 900s AD Poland will be published. It would be even better to have Slavic samples from Late Iron Age and from the Migration Period.

    The main problem is that cremation was widely practiced by Early Slavs, inhumations were rare at that time.

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    There was I think in 1923 a huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Greeks took about 1.5 million Anatolian Greeks and resettled them in mainland, including Populousness. That was 40% of population of Greece of that time. So no genetic study of Greeks tells the truth about genetic composition of Greeks of Middle ages when Fallmerayer visited Greece. To say now that Peloponnese's was not touched by resettlement of populations from Anatolia is not the truth. When Fallmerayer visited Greece he landed by ship on port of Pireus close to present day Athens. The first thing he realized was that local population spoke no Greek. He was greeted by hordes of Arvanites who spoke no Greek. Also the Vlah population of of Greece was significant. They might have composed 10% of total Greek population. He famously said something like: I guess I have to visit cemeteries. There is where the real Greeks lay. Unless the Anatolian Greeks have the same genes like the one Peloponesses have I don't see how this study could be true? I come to believe the expression: Don't believe everything you read!

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    Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

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    I cannot post a link, but Google (search) for 'Greek War of Independence and its Toll on Turks' You should find an article prepared by the Turkish American Coalition. It says that that there 'was nearly 30 thousands (sic) Muslims living in the Peloponnese in March 1821' (the start of the war). "A month later, ...there was hardly any.' Further down a British author counts '20,000 (Muslim) souls'. This is a TURKISH article. The transfer largely had to do with Muslims in territory Greece gained since Independence - Greece's territory expanded a lot - also documented in that article. The Greek war of independence continued until 1829, the year before the German visited.

    If you need to make a point, try to not lie so blatantly. I feel good that Greeks are hated. It makes them and me feel special. DuPidh, say something positive about YOUR people. Try that for a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

    I suggest read correct the Greek revolt from Orlov's to 1828
    and seek the batlle of Lalla by Kolokotronis



    Anyway

    The Slavic admixture

    The SLavic admixture in Greece as area not as nation reached Peloponese
    we have toponyms like Helmos ex-Αροανεια and historical facts, the 2 tribe are (Ν)Εζεριται Μελιγγοι (Ν)ezer Meliggoi
    they were absorved by time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai

    Personally I always believed that there is a max 8-15% Slavic admixture at total Greek area (not from minor Asian) population except Crete and islands West and East.


    A very small Slavic admixture might also pass from some Vlach-Aromani tribes (that descend from North Balkans) some Arbanites and from Byzantine guards
    remember some Palaiologoi married Slavic brides
    I repeat a small cause these tribes (Aromani etc ) are not considered Slavic but living nearby with South Slavic populations, as also some other Northern DNA like East Vikings.


    about Peloponese and Ottomans,


    Before Orlov's revolt 1770 estimated around 20 000
    After Orlov's are about 40 000 due to Ottoman (Turk and Albanian) army
    10 000 Albanian Army (Ottoman citizenship and Muslim religion = Turk to every census) came to Peloponese,
    they went away after the battle of Lalla, and Kolokotronis struggle, to North to my Makedonia to Platamon, for stop but could not stay, so went East by ships, many ships sumk and raids against them by Diamantis Nikolaou.
    not to be misunderstood, Albanians not Arbanites,
    after June 1821 not a single Muslim existed at Peloponese except the city of Patrai
    many descriptions are written about the crimes comited by Albanians against Greeks from 1770 to 1820 and Then by Greeks after 1821
    but it is certain that when Greek state stablished not 1 muslim Albanian or Turk existed at Peloponese,

    about ΤΣΑΚΩΝΕΣ Tsakones

    their dialect come from antique and is clearly Dorian,
    in fact it is the only live remnant of Dorian dialect in Greece.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language


    West European admixture Latinocracy

    Peloponese due to her position had enough population traffic with West Europe,
    Crusaders Francs Catalans Italians etc created castles and small kingdoms
    Peloponese is affected by Francocracy Φραγκοκρατια from 1204 to 1430 (FranKs, Knights, Navarresse- Magna Societas)
    and many parts/castles from Enetocracy Ενετοκρατια (Italy mainly Venice)


    ROman era


    at the Roman era Achaia and Corinthos (North Peloponese) was a significant center for Roman world and army


    Now
    I do not know how many marks left the above, countable on fingers or a consirable % , But these I believe are the main known devastations to Peloponese,
    ok maybe I lost one,
    Last edited by Yetos; 09-03-17 at 02:11.
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    "Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks."

    Very little. The two communities were almost segregated on the basis of religion, as Greeks were Christians the Ottomans were Muslims. Intermarriages were not allowed and whoever converted to Islam automatically joined the Ottoman community, regardless of their ethnic origin. In fact, the offspring of those few converts had to leave and resettle in Turkey with the population exchange program that took place in the 1920s.

    "How could you believe this study?"

    I can believe it because it is a peer review study, conducted by a reputable istitution and published in a scientific publication, not an uninformed opinion based on superficial knowledge.


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    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.
    In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.

    FEARFUL HISTORY

    Demetrios Horologas

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.

    FEARFUL HISTORY

    Demetrios Horologas
    If I'm understanding you correctly, I'm surprised and disappointed both. Genetics is genetics, for goodness sakes. It's time to let go of all this noxious politics.

    @Hauteville,

    I agree. There was definitely Italian gene flow into the islands ruled by Venezia and Genova and during the days of Byzantium as well.
    Last edited by Angela; 09-03-17 at 03:47.

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    It appears that this study put the lie to Mr. Horologas' assertions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.

    FEARFUL HISTORY

    Demetrios Horologas
    so you do belive that albanians have slavic arched eye brows? as you clearly were raised in greece you know that is very easy to distinguish a greek from an albanian and if you are not sure then the short one should be the albanian

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    so you do belive that albanians have slavic arched eye brows? as you clearly were raised in greece you know that is very easy to distinguish a greek from an albanian and if you are not sure then the short one should be the albanian
    You are right that many Albanians in Greece are indeed short, especially the Tosk. But I dont think many people will agree with you if you compare the Albanian and Greek communities in the USA for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    so you do belive that albanians have slavic arched eye brows? as you clearly were raised in greece you know that is very easy to distinguish a greek from an albanian and if you are not sure then the short one should be the albanian
    I think you have to read carefully this greek scholar.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
    so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
    the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
    the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
    finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
    so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
    the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
    the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
    finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that
    I think, speaking about slavs, Maniates, refugees, there is something emblematic, right in the heart of greekdom:
    Areopoli

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
    so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
    the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
    the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
    finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    The Wikipedia's page is clear, there is also a map about settlements. Peloponneso was basically untouched by Asia Minor Greeks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

    The worst part of Population Exchange is the number of Turks. Turks have been fleeting from Greece since its independence (1821). However, Exchange was mostly focusing recent immigrations. Probably it is true also for Greeks

    When the first time Greece's decleration of independence, they didn't have many lands so obviously people who escaped from Ottomans and decided to fight for Greece, went to Morea too. Not much as Greek Macedonia, but also not untouched by Asia Minor. Also even in the research, not all West Asian Greeks are different from Peloponnesian
    Did someone tell something about a simple wiki research?

    "In the early 20th century, Patras developed fast and became the first Greek city to introduce public streetlights and electrified tramways.[12] The war effort necessitated by the first World War hampered the city's development and also created uncontrollable urban sprawl after the influx of displaced persons from Asia Minor after the 1922 population exchange between Greece and Turkey."

    This is from Wiki about Greek city Patras.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    The worst part of Population Exchange is the number of Turks. Turks have been fleeting from Greece since its independence (1821). However, Exchange was mostly focusing recent immigrations. Probably it is true also for Greeks

    When the first time Greece's decleration of independence, they didn't have many lands so obviously people who escaped from Ottomans and decided to fight for Greece, went to Morea too. Not much as Greek Macedonia, but also not untouched by Asia Minor. Also even in the research, not all West Asian Greeks are different from Peloponnesian
    Did someone tell something about a simple wiki research?

    "In the early 20th century, Patras developed fast and became the first Greek city to introduce public streetlights and electrified tramways.[12] The war effort necessitated by the first World War hampered the city's development and also created uncontrollable urban sprawl after the influx of displaced persons from Asia Minor after the 1922 population exchange between Greece and Turkey."

    This is from Wiki about Greek city Patras.
    there is discussion among 2 high level politicians ( I think one is Kapodistrias (Capo d' Istria was alternative name for the Greek community hiden company like the Philiki of Trieste -Tergest after 1720's)
    and it is said that none Turk left in that time modern Greece, by the term Turk or προσκυνημενοι (those who kneel) Greeks mean muslims and that include not only Turks but other Muslim nationalities also, like Albanians,

    the
    the exchange of 1922 has 3 rules

    Rule 1 the Greeks who arrive will occupy each Turkish property of those who left as exchanged population to Turkey,
    the Turk who stay will might keep max 100 000 m2 or 10 % of their property according the qitap (land register) with min the house or 8-10 000 m2
    That is about 80% of Pontic people who stayed at the villages or at the tsiflik of the Turks who left 1 year before, and about 30 % of minor Asian (Smyrna) at what was called Nees ktiseis or New Greece (Greek expansion after 1860, Makedonia Epirus some islands and a part of Thessaly the ones called Vakuf (Ottoman properties like camps or forests who stayed as common property before, etc etc)

    rule 2 Those who will go to old Greece (before 1860) will accept some British sauvereign or some other currency as help but not land to cultivate, since the land is given and is registered
    alternative the state kept the money and bought land (απαλοτριωσις) and share a small piece of land able enough to build a typical poor home of tha era.
    that is major part of minor Asians (Smyrna) about 50% and 10 % of Pontic, most them are those who raise the industrial effort of the big cities.of 30's till late 70's,
    that was the major labour dynamic of the time, they mostly become working class for 2 generations. and is focused in certain areas, like Pireus Athens Volos Herakleion Mytiline Thessaloniki
    and mostly have names of the area they come, like Nea Smyrne (New Izmir) Kordellio (karsiyaka) Nea Ionia (Yunan= Ιων=Ιοnian) etc

    Rule 3
    where the church has property big land area (do not remember the size), or areas that were in progress to dry for farming 50% will pass to refuggees (new land),
    At peloponese there are 2 villages of minor Asians (Smyrna) at Heleia preferacture, but since they are after 1920's surely excluded from the search.
    BUT Peloponese took the lowest almost zero of exchange population, since there was no Turkish property or exchangable population.

    About Patras I do not know if there was previous devastation, from minor Asia, but if it was it should be merchants guild devastation, as also was at Smyrna,
    but early 20th century is at least 40 after the limit of the search border 1860 if remember coorect, (I might be wrong)



    Other interesting data that might be interest the Forum members,


    Well Albanians have a point of view through Fallamyer, but they do not know that,

    At 1821 Cretans came to fight, Karaiskakis died at Κρητων αναχωμα (Cretan defence) but none become Greek citizen, they remained Ottoman citizens,
    at 1821 at Makedonia happened many revolts, most remarkable was Emm Pappas from Serres Georgakis |Olympios and |Diamantis Nikolaou ( from Pieria Makedonia)
    all these and their men none become Greek citizen, all remained Ottoman citizens and went back,
    Can you imagine how Makedonian Diamantis Nikolaou felt when he revolt, he liberated 3 islands he had his own battaglion gave battles there where no one dared to do,
    But he returned as Ottoman citizen back to his lands?
    can you imagine the rebels of Pappas who revolt almost conguer Thessaloniki (and they would do so, if ...) went to new Greece to see their leader die
    and then return back as Ottoman citizens,
    I will not expand to this why Fallmayer took wrong vision of Greece.
    400 years of raya, what he expected to see? Greek man philosophizing? or naked man make gymnastics? maybe symposiums with Sokrates?
    the 200 Pontic Greeks who followed Ypsilantis (majority went to Romania to revolt, Greek revolution started there)
    went back to Ottoman empire and seen their leader die at Vienna, and his sister married to Crete, still as Ottoman citizens,

    for the above reasons I am certain that the Greek from Asia admixture if the search is before 1860 is not at considerable level.

    Last edited by Yetos; 15-03-17 at 08:59.

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