Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

@Angela
Obviously every Greek settlement in Magna Graecia had an impact, but could not be held responsible for the genetic similarities between Greece and Italy. Like u said urself, the connection reaches back into the Neolithic and even farther, and we see a similar trend of population movements going on for centuries. It seems to be always the case that people from northern Balkans move south and from there to Italy.

It doesn't necessarily, the earliest migrations in Balkans might have rather been from South upwards to the North.

And the people who colonized Italy where Greeks not North Balkanians

Even the ancient Greek and Roman mythology always claimed that several tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor, then we have the famous colonies of Magna Graecia, then we have the expulsion of Greeks by the Byzantine Empire forming the Griko minority, then the Turks influenced the same trend, followed even by the Albanians known as Arbereshe who had also settled in Greece for 3-4 centuries already, and so on.

If tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor they weren't from North Balkans
Neither Greece nor Asia Minor is in North Balkans
 
^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.

I don’t see Slavic migration as negative either, after all they, goths, and Avars saved Albanian from complete romanization breaking the dominance of Roman rule in the Balkan.

But to think otherwise is completely acceptable depending on the historical prospective.


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^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.

The amount of Slavic admixture though grows exponentially in some peoples imagination compared
to what it is in reality

At least when it comes to Greece
 
Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

You are painfully wrong. For starters. In the pelloponese, the total population of Turks (Muslims) was 42.750 before the revolution, not 100.000. After the revolution, the total Turkish Population of Greece was 0. This can be found in various sources. Such as the correspondence of the Greek leader Kapodistrias. The Arvanites of mainlanf peloponnese were at the time, according an extremely inaccurate estimate of Mr Philpson an outstanding 50.000 people in a population of 750.000 in the 1840s. This study was overblown, famously including the ten thousand Arvanites of Laconia. Which are even reosrested on maps! The only problem being. That according to mr Korilos, and the local Greeks, the only Arvanite village of the region had 706 people. No vlach settlement existed in the peloponnese. Only in Pindus. Finally. Modern Gedmatch results of the Greeks of Attica (a region etnirely inhabited by Arvanites) show the closest population to be Eastern Sicily. Peloponnese and Attica are the most distant Greek regions of Greece to albania. Genitally. This is a prove of Kostas Biris's theory, Who wrote in his famous and awarded book called "The Arvanites". That Modern Greek Arvanites, are Albanised local Hellines with some small and distant Arvanite heritage. Of you want to know more on this subject, I could kindly give you all the informations you want. This study is not only peer reviewed, but it Also proves the Greek continuity. It's normal, that people learn in Their schools about how great the ancient Greeks were. When they find themselves against modern Greeks in reality, as Many Turks, albanians, and Slavs have in the last centuries, they are being put in a position of hating something worthy of admiration. Poorly structured and debunked arguments are being used as a result, to legalise and justify morally this realtion.
 
You are painfully wrong. For starters. In the pelloponese, the total population of Turks (Muslims) was 42.750 before the revolution, not 100.000. After the revolution, the total Turkish Population of Greece was 0. This can be found in various sources. Such as the correspondence of the Greek leader Kapodistrias. The Arvanites of mainlanf peloponnese were at the time, according an extremely inaccurate estimate of Mr Philpson an outstanding 50.000 people in a population of 750.000 in the 1840s. This study was overblown, famously including the ten thousand Arvanites of Laconia. Which are even reosrested on maps! The only problem being. That according to mr Korilos, and the local Greeks, the only Arvanite village of the region had 706 people. No vlach settlement existed in the peloponnese. Only in Pindus. Finally. Modern Gedmatch results of the Greeks of Attica (a region etnirely inhabited by Arvanites) show the closest population to be Eastern Sicily. Peloponnese and Attica are the most distant Greek regions of Greece to albania. Genitally. This is a prove of Kostas Biris's theory, Who wrote in his famous and awarded book called "The Arvanites". That Modern Greek Arvanites, are Albanised local Hellines with some small and distant Arvanite heritage. Of you want to know more on this subject, I could kindly give you all the informations you want. This study is not only peer reviewed, but it Also proves the Greek continuity. It's normal, that people learn in Their schools about how great the ancient Greeks were. When they find themselves against modern Greeks in reality, as Many Turks, albanians, and Slavs have in the last centuries, they are being put in a position of hating something worthy of admiration. Poorly structured and debunked arguments are being used as a result, to legalise and justify morally this realtion.

The Central Greek sample in Gedmatch is a mixed islander with mainlander not an actual Arvanite from Attica if that's what you are talking about.
Arvanites were 12% in Peloponnese in 1890.
 
Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

The Central Greek sample in Gedmatch is a mixed islander with mainlander not an actual Arvanite from Attica if that's what you are talking about.
Arvanites were 12% in Peloponnese in 1890.

I am not talking about the Central_Greek on Gedmatch. There is a different category called Greek_Attica. A sample collected From an inhabitant with full ancestry From Attica, a region with high degrees of endogamy. The sample was extremely close to Eastern Sicily. The center of Greek colonisation. Arvanites in the pelloponese weren't 12%. A German demographer, Alfred Philpson, who hardly visited the pelloponese reported this number in 1888. He reported 90.000 out of a Population of 730.000. On the same year. An Athenian academic, Mr Korilos published his detailed census of the peloponnese, having visited the Arvanite villages one by one. The mistakes of Philpson were truly unbelievable. He even claimed my own Laconian village, was Arvanite speaking! Funny enough, the elders of my village, born a few decades after his research, told me their parents and grandparents didn't speak Arvanite. In fact Mr Korilos's report showed 50.000 Arvanites in mainland pelloponese. And 20.000 in two little islands (they were historically densely populated). In fact, the Actual number, of Arvanite descent in the pelloponese is extremely small. The same German ethnographer, Philpson, noted in his works that the family names of the Arvanites, were nearly exclusively, Greek. Note that this wasn't a result of hellinization. Since the assimilation of Arvanites happened in the decade between 1912-1922 in this decade of war, the Arvanite youth followed Their fellow Greeks in battle, the family structure which spread and maintained the Arvanite language was broken, state control was increased, and 1.5 million Greeks arrived and settled amongst other places the aravnite center of Attica. Arvanites themselves live in places with not only Greek, But specifically ancient Greek names. 40% of the family names of the entire community, not the ones in the pelloponese only, were Greek, while the Arvanite name's, were only 25% of the community. The rest 35% were of mixed or unclear origins. In fact. Atticas albanisation, is not only carefully recorded, but in the 19th century, elders, still remembered nthe stories of Their grandparents. Which lived in th 17th century, the period When the albanisation of attica occurred.
 
^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.
 
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Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.

I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?

In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of nothern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.

As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.

Dear friend. I will presume that your interest on this matter is genuine. So I'll answer you likewise. The arrival and settlement of the Arvanites in Greece, has been perhaps the least studied part of the history of the region. And by least, I mean hardly anyone studied before the second world war. The westerners, were uncomfortable with non Greek speakers in the heart of Hellenism. They tried to disassociate it from the Hellines, for purely ideological reasons, not accepting the history of Greece. The numbers I gave if course we're not of the Greek government. The Greek state, didn't collect such data at the time. The numbers about the Greek Arvanites were given by the following people. Hahn(1840s), Philpson(1880s) and Finley(1830s). Those are the only foreigners Who in the 19th century attempted Such censuses. Hahn, was the first to publish his findings. He reported 174.000 Arvanites, in his book he rounds it up to 200.000. His work though was extremely problematic, regularly included non existent people, like the 10.000 Arvanites of Laconia, the 14.000 of phokaia and the 4.000 of sperchios. People who, don't exist. Hahn didn't visit all the Arvanite places, but rather asked others, falmereier about most of the data. Finley objected to Hahn's findings. Hahn, layer after the publication of his book, wrote a new prologue, admitting that his numbers were generally, not represenrive of the exact reality. Finley, had calculated 100.000 Arvanites (in his published notes). He also, in his work reported 200.000, possibly for not wanting to deviate from the pre existing assumptions, he generally, didn't spent much time talking about the Arvanites, he wasn't for the aforementioned reasons keen on the matter. Finally. Philpson, in his twelve month's in the country, reported the numbers I mentioned in the previous comments. The one who corrected him, was professor Korillos. Who collected the data by asking for the numbers from Major's of the Arvanite regions of Greece, Who were often enough of aravnite descent themselves. The most accurate of Those censuses, was. The one of Hahn. With some corrections, we can approximate the number of Greek Arvanites in the 1840s and 1850s to 120.000. the corrections are the aforementioned, plus.1) he talked about 30.000 Arvanites in Attica excluding the Greek speaking cities of Athens and Megara. But the population of the region was not only half the size, but Also included mixed settlements like elefsina. (Based in ottoman data, and travelers/visitors). He made the same mistake in South Euboea.

Let's talk though about those "Arvanites". Their Greek name's, which about half of them had. One who doesn't know about the history if their settlement in Greece, might assume that were Hellinized names. This would be a mistake. Since the exact opposite happend. Not hellinization, but albanisation. Attica and Boitia, as the rest of Greece had booming agricultural and manufactural sectors in the 14th century (see William miller's "Francocracy in Greece"). So necessarily, they had a more than sufficient Population. The Arvanite settlements, as recorded in the Catalan, Florentine, and venician records were purely of military nature. Meaning, there was a demand for trained soldiers (all the Arvanites were solders, according to first hand sources, the men had Only one duty, training for and conducting war). Their settlement didn't happen in the densely populated agricultural centres. But in strategic positions. As I've probably written before, the Turkish invasion and venician relocations had as result a targeted and huge demographic decline of the Arvanites. This brought the surviving aravnites in contact with the locals (as refugees From Their initial settlements), and their former villages uninhabited. Arvanite movement South was organised and thus, well recorded. There wer not Many migration events. But one main event. When some of the Arvanites who weren't sent back to arbanon, settled Greece. The settler's Also, weren't only Arvanites. The venician records are clear. The invitation was to anyone who was a soldier, and could maintain himself, his family and one horse. Travelers in Attica in the 17th century, report specifically, no Arvanites in Menid, Marousi, Salamis and Koukouvaounes. Their arrival happened after an Arvanite revoot in Argolis. 7.000 Arvanites From Argolis, were relocated. 5.000 in the agean islands and Crete, and 2.000 in Attica. Then, slowly, the albanisation of attica was complete.

But Why would the Greeks give up Their language? Why wouldn't the aravnite minority be absorbed by the Greek majority? This is a multifactoral answer. 1) There was no greek, or albanian state control. So every assimilation was a result of social interactions. This is fundamental in our understanding of the events. 2)The Arvanites, as a culture, are famously stubborn. There are plenty of proverbs in Greek, who describe and satirise the stubborn nature of the Arvanites. An assimilation of Arvanites by Greeks was out of the question straight away. The Church, Who many people think Hellinized others, didn't do this before the independence of the Greek state, since in an ottoman context, the language of the subject was irrelevant. Contrary to the heated period of the Macedonian struggle, where hellinization was a tool in the hands of the state. 3)The most important factor, which explains, the insane albanisation, in the specific regions of Attica and Boitia, is the Ottoman administration. Specifically the people, of albanian origin, running it. Tax collectors, of Muslim albanian background, treated the Arvanites better, on account of Their shared language. The Greeks, then. In an attempt to survive the harsh taxes, adjusted, as the Greeks are famous for. The Greek culture. Is incredibly flexible, elastic. Open to outsiders. The Greeks never Hellinized anyone without Their organised States, which could unlish the power of hellinization. Greeks, as a result, adopted Arvanite. The mixed marriages they made resulted in aravnite speaking kids, since this language, had much more social status in the ottoman empire, contrary, to the language of the orthodox Romans, the conquered, the enslaved, the Greeks. The name's of ancient Attica were carefully albanised, Amigdalia became Amigdaleza. Koukouvaines became Koukouvaounes and Varka became Varkiza. Old people, in the village of menidi, in the 19th century, remember hearing stories of the transition, by their grandparents, who were born in the late 17th early, 18th centuries, just after the assimlation. It should Also be noted, that because of different groups of Greeks, retaining different words and phrases from Greek When they transitioned, the Arvanite dialects were hardly mutually understood. As the Arvanites themselves would declare. The popular myths, the song's, the dresses in the weddings, the music, was still similar to the neighbouring greek speakers. This blood connection, of the Greek Arvanites, with hellinism explains what westerners described as following "The people, speak an albanian language, yet they seem all passionately proud about their ancestry From the builders of the Parthenon". In fact. Arvanites, of southern Greece. In their consciousness as a people, were proud about Their descent from the ancient Greeks. Which they called the people of old. This would have been impossible, if they were foreigners to the land. You can see it all around. The relationship the Turks, the Slavs and many others have with Their homeland, is clearly depicting, that they were foreigners to it. (The Turks of Cesme or Bodrum, never looked with pride the ancient Greek theaters of the region, feeling them as foreign to them). The Greek name's, of the Greek Arvanites, were a result of this assimilation.

This as I've said. Explains why the inhabitants of Argolis (largely Arvanite speaking), are not closer to Albanians, genetically, than any other mainland greek, while they are really close (identical) with messinian and other greeks From non Arvanite speaking regions of the pelloponese.
 
Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.

I didn't read all that, I don't have the energy.
But I will share this:
"In all the Villages and Country about Athens, the In∣habitants are most Albaneses; and they are here more populous than in the Morea. I"
In 17th century.

You are using a quote without knowing what it is. You are aware of so little, that you can't understand the meaning of the quote. If you are interested in having a discussion, that's Great. I am happy to listen to your remarks. My answer to this quote is in the previous post. If you want to have a monologue, that's fine, but I am letting you know, that you don't know, and that you should read my comment, otherwise, don't try to make a point without having a discussion.
 
Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.

Albania uber Alles

No... No... No...
 
No... No... No...
8af.jpg
 
Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites?
In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.
Interesting, and it’s seems Peloponnesus is in the same boat [emoji571].
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I was under the impression this was a serious chat Room. Let me explain you a thing or two. 1)Haplogroups don't correspond with ethnc groups. (Haplogroup E is common throughout Greece, southern Italy and the Balkans). 2) Skull shapes do not correspond with ethnic groups, this is 19th century racist propaganda. 3)The world isn't albanian.
Contemporary studies and modern genetics have shown that out of all the Greeks, the closest to the Mycenaeans are the Peloponnesians. The spread of the haplogroup E also corresponds to the Hellenic expansion. In fact, this is one of the few times a certain haplogroup has been strongly identified with one historical event. With abnormal increases of haplogroup E in Corsica and southern France as well as the Asia minor coast. Sorry. But if you want to spread pseudo history/genetics darling, go to someone else, I am way out of your league.
 
And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.

Albanians = Egyptian, that is the funny part. Something and some people can’t change their mind even with genetic studies.


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And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.
I see you?re having a hard time counting the Arvanites and are referring to some Greek studies on their numbers.

Since this is Eupedia, may I suggest getting access to a database with deep subclades and count the amount of E-V13, R1b, and J2b2 of Central Balkan origin?

A Bosnian member here called Aspurg did a great job separating the aforementioned subclades in Greece into Albanian-like and Bulgarian/Romanian-like, indicating clear Arvanite or Vlach origin of these tested individuals.

Note that their number is quite high and if you deduct the more Northern origin of many E-V13 in Greece, you can to the conclusion that Greece originally didn?t have as much E-V13 as it has now, pointing to late Central Balkan origin, mostly after the Slavic invasion of the Balkans.
 

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