Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

I see you�re having a hard time counting the Arvanites and are referring to some Greek studies on their numbers.

Since this is Eupedia, may I suggest getting access to a database with deep subclades and count the amount of E-V13, R1b, and J2b2 of Central Balkan origin?

A Bosnian member here called Aspurg did a great job separating the aforementioned subclades in Greece into Albanian-like and Bulgarian/Romanian-like, indicating clear Arvanite or Vlach origin of these tested individuals.

Note that their number is quite high and if you deduct the more Northern origin of many E-V13 in Greece, you can to the conclusion that Greece originally didn�t have as much E-V13 as it has now, pointing to late Central Balkan origin, mostly after the Slavic invasion of the Balkans.

I am not having a hard time counting the Arvanites at all! I wrote my thesis on them. I didn't refer to Greek sources aside of Korilos corrections. I referred to Finlay, Philpson, Hahn. And honestly, Finley gave a lower number than what I did (100.000) while Hahn who wrote about the 174.000 Arvanites, he then published a new prologue for his book in which he corrected himself. Based on the corrections of Hahn himself we come to the conclusion of the 120.000 Arvanites in 1830s early 1840s. My Greek sources were for a research done by Philpson, 40 years later, and in the meantime the Greek population had doubled. I Also suggest you to read, not a bosniaks research, but the genetic contribution of Greeks in thessaly and Cordia. E-v13 was directly linked with greek colonisation. In fact occasionally it was the only source. I suggest you read more carefully next time and be more informed about history 🙃
 
I am not having a hard time counting the Arvanites at all! I wrote my thesis on them. I didn't refer to Greek sources aside of Korilos corrections. I referred to Finlay, Philpson, Hahn. And honestly, Finley gave a lower number than what I did (100.000) while Hahn who wrote about the 174.000 Arvanites, he then published a new prologue for his book in which he corrected himself. Based on the corrections of Hahn himself we come to the conclusion of the 120.000 Arvanites in 1830s early 1840s. My Greek sources were for a research done by Philpson, 40 years later, and in the meantime the Greek population had doubled. I Also suggest you to read, not a bosniaks research, but the genetic contribution of Greeks in thessaly and Cordia. E-v13 was directly linked with greek colonisation. In fact occasionally it was the only source. I suggest you read more carefully next time and be more informed about history 🙃
You seem like the type that isn?t focused while reading and needs a second explanation.

Aspurg didn?t conduct a research, he just noticed in YFull or elsewhere how the parent clades of a very large number of E-V13 in Greece are in the area between Albania and Bulgaria/Romania, the majority being of Medieval origin and a minority of Iron Age/Illyrian origin.

J2a is the truly predominant haplogroup of the Greeks, excluding the Neo-Greeks after 1821.

As for Arvanites, we know plenty of examples of villages and lastnames with Albanian origins who have lost their identity long time ago, especially in Arcadia, Lakonia, and Mani, and even instances around Tripoli after the expulsion of the Muslims.
 
You seem like the type that isn�t focused while reading and needs a second explanation.

Aspurg didn�t conduct a research, he just noticed in YFull or elsewhere how the parent clades of a very large number of E-V13 in Greece are in the area between Albania and Bulgaria/Romania, the majority being of Medieval origin and a minority of Iron Age/Illyrian origin.

J2a is the truly predominant haplogroup of the Greeks, excluding the Neo-Greeks after 1821.

As for Arvanites, we know plenty of examples of villages and lastnames with Albanian origins who have lost their identity long time ago, especially in Arcadia, Lakonia, and Mani, and even instances around Tripoli after the expulsion of the Muslims.

First of all. You sound like the guy, who has a conclusion before looking into it. And then he rushes to create an images to prove the pre concluded scenario.

If you know villages in Arcadia, or anywhere else for that matter, where Arvanites, were assimlated, (BEFORE THE 19YH CENTURY) I'd really interested if you could share those data with me.

I personally, as a general rule, prefer it when I talk about things I fully and completely, not Only understand, but Also comprehend. So, without wanting to disprove the infinite wisdom From an Eupedia map. I'll have to redirect you to a study done and published in nature magazine (I can't post link's yet, so you gonna have to look for it) about the Genetic contribution of Greeks to Sicily. The study. Among other things, concluded, that the Haplogroup E-v13 which peaks in Eastern Sicily, was a result of an ancient genetic flow from Greece to Sicily.

So. Based on that, which I tend to trudt a little bit more. I can firmly question you theory. Since it becomes obvious, Greece had high E v13 rates since antiquity. In fact, this haplogroup has become a signature fir greek colonisation. Also. As a guy who has spent so much time researching the arrival of the Arvanites in southern Greece, and their evolution. I can inform you, that it would have been for them impossible to create, such an impressive genetic shift, the likes of which the settlement of Greeks in Sicily didn't (The Same study funds the Greek contribution to be about 37% of the total gene pool dispite the intense colonisation).

But if you want to use Gedmatch and similar questionable sources. Then you gonna realise you are contradicting yourself. Since albanians are genetically closer to the Greeks Who have had the greatest slavic influence of all, native Greek speaking (Maybe not, it's really hard to know with Gedmatch, it could have been grecomans) macedonians. And genetically more distant to the peloponnese out of all the mainland groups.

Concluding. Historically. Such a genetic shift can exist as a hypothesis only in the sphere of fantasy. Since, the Arvanites had neither the numbers nor the geographic spread (I've studied every Damn movement of them) Genetically. The ancient Greeks not having high E v13 number's. Is wrong. (Here, I can use firm language, since science, is not exactly a negotiable field).

But your theory, shows Also, an extreme luck of understanding of the ancient world. Albanians are a small people in the southern balkan peninsula. Not Even ancestors of all the illyrians, just a handful of southern tribes. Greeks, were geographically and historically great. The Greek speakers of Cyprus, and Pontus speak the language and call themselves Greeks since 600BC. By definition, they are ancient Greeks. Yet are genetically divergent From mainland Greeks. Mainland Greeks themselves, ever since the period of Mycenaeans were genetically different than the islands and especially Crete (a study published nature magazine, the results are free to read but you need subscription for the analytic data). Concluding. An approach which suggests that ancient Greeks, even only in the mainland had one dominant haplogroup, while we know very well events such as the Dorian invasion affected only some areas of the mainland, is either a naive prospective, or an ideologically motivated one.

All considered. Evidence until the 19th century suggest albanisation of Greeks rather than the opposite. Family name's, villages are all primarily in greek. In Attica, the albanisation of locals is even more pronounced than anywhere. Since in attica, There are Very few Arvanite toponyms, excepting the deserted regions of the aravnite military villages (long story short Turks killed a lot of Arvanites). The Albanian language status in the ottoman empire, albanian tax collectors and officials, a warrior class (the Arvanites) in a humiliated and horrified agricultural majority (the Greeks). Arvanite culture of persistence in comparison with greek culture of adaptation. The simplicity of the Arvanite language in comparison with greek, and the absence of a Greek state (which historically has been the only way hellinization worked). All contributed to the albanisation of Greeks. Before you start yelling abou the church. Let me inform you, that the patriarch of Constantinople didn't give a Damn in the context of the ottoman empire about the culture and ethnic identity of his subjects. As long as they were loyal to him, and not to the other orthodox churches. On fact. Hellinization through the church was promoted through the church of Greece (funded after the independence) and only as a weapon of the Greek state (similar to the bulgarian exarchate church). This religious pressure for ethnic conversion, was pointless in a pre nation's world (most of the Ottoman period) where the ethnic identity of the subject was irrelevant, and ethnic struggles were non existent. In fact, the venicians probably understood how interchangeable the Greeks and Arvanites had become through mixing, and how the arvanite identity became more of a cultural thing, since in their speeches they specified, that the Arvanites and the Greeks are one nation. (This is from the Venetian senate, you can Google it).
 
First of all. You sound like the guy, who has a conclusion before looking into it. And then he rushes to create an images to prove the pre concluded scenario.

If you know villages in Arcadia, or anywhere else for that matter, where Arvanites, were assimlated, (BEFORE THE 19YH CENTURY) I'd really interested if you could share those data with me.

I personally, as a general rule, prefer it when I talk about things I fully and completely, not Only understand, but Also comprehend. So, without wanting to disprove the infinite wisdom From an Eupedia map. I'll have to redirect you to a study done and published in nature magazine (I can't post link's yet, so you gonna have to look for it) about the Genetic contribution of Greeks to Sicily. The study. Among other things, concluded, that the Haplogroup E-v13 which peaks in Eastern Sicily, was a result of an ancient genetic flow from Greece to Sicily.

So. Based on that, which I tend to trudt a little bit more. I can firmly question you theory. Since it becomes obvious, Greece had high E v13 rates since antiquity. In fact, this haplogroup has become a signature fir greek colonisation. Also. As a guy who has spent so much time researching the arrival of the Arvanites in southern Greece, and their evolution. I can inform you, that it would have been for them impossible to create, such an impressive genetic shift, the likes of which the settlement of Greeks in Sicily didn't (The Same study funds the Greek contribution to be about 37% of the total gene pool dispite the intense colonisation).

But if you want to use Gedmatch and similar questionable sources. Then you gonna realise you are contradicting yourself. Since albanians are genetically closer to the Greeks Who have had the greatest slavic influence of all, native Greek speaking (Maybe not, it's really hard to know with Gedmatch, it could have been grecomans) macedonians. And genetically more distant to the peloponnese out of all the mainland groups.

Concluding. Historically. Such a genetic shift can exist as a hypothesis only in the sphere of fantasy. Since, the Arvanites had neither the numbers nor the geographic spread (I've studied every Damn movement of them) Genetically. The ancient Greeks not having high E v13 number's. Is wrong. (Here, I can use firm language, since science, is not exactly a negotiable field).

But your theory, shows Also, an extreme luck of understanding of the ancient world. Albanians are a small people in the southern balkan peninsula. Not Even ancestors of all the illyrians, just a handful of southern tribes. Greeks, were geographically and historically great. The Greek speakers of Cyprus, and Pontus speak the language and call themselves Greeks since 600BC. By definition, they are ancient Greeks. Yet are genetically divergent From mainland Greeks. Mainland Greeks themselves, ever since the period of Mycenaeans were genetically different than the islands and especially Crete (a study published nature magazine, the results are free to read but you need subscription for the analytic data). Concluding. An approach which suggests that ancient Greeks, even only in the mainland had one dominant haplogroup, while we know very well events such as the Dorian invasion affected only some areas of the mainland, is either a naive prospective, or an ideologically motivated one.

All considered. Evidence until the 19th century suggest albanisation of Greeks rather than the opposite. Family name's, villages are all primarily in greek. In Attica, the albanisation of locals is even more pronounced than anywhere. Since in attica, There are Very few Arvanite toponyms, excepting the deserted regions of the aravnite military villages (long story short Turks killed a lot of Arvanites). The Albanian language status in the ottoman empire, albanian tax collectors and officials, a warrior class (the Arvanites) in a humiliated and horrified agricultural majority (the Greeks). Arvanite culture of persistence in comparison with greek culture of adaptation. The simplicity of the Arvanite language in comparison with greek, and the absence of a Greek state (which historically has been the only way hellinization worked). All contributed to the albanisation of Greeks. Before you start yelling abou the church. Let me inform you, that the patriarch of Constantinople didn't give a Damn in the context of the ottoman empire about the culture and ethnic identity of his subjects. As long as they were loyal to him, and not to the other orthodox churches. On fact. Hellinization through the church was promoted through the church of Greece (funded after the independence) and only as a weapon of the Greek state (similar to the bulgarian exarchate church). This religious pressure for ethnic conversion, was pointless in a pre nation's world (most of the Ottoman period) where the ethnic identity of the subject was irrelevant, and ethnic struggles were non existent. In fact, the venicians probably understood how interchangeable the Greeks and Arvanites had become through mixing, and how the arvanite identity became more of a cultural thing, since in their speeches they specified, that the Arvanites and the Greeks are one nation. (This is from the Venetian senate, you can Google it).

One question only, was E-V13 dominant haplogroup in Peloponnesus before 1200 BC or was a latter addition?


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From Wikipedia alone I understand the following:

A study from the Universit? Cattolica del Sacro Cuore found that while Greek colonization left little significant genetic contribution, data analysis sampling 12 sites in the Italian peninsula supported a male demic diffusion model and Neolithic admixture with Mesolithic inhabitants.[35]

Overall the estimated Central Balkan and North Western European paternal contributions in South Italy and Sicily are about 63% and 26% respectively.[40]
 
Wikipedia is a dubious source.

As much as 26pc NW European?

I think not.
 
One question only, was E-V13 dominant haplogroup in Peloponnesus before 1200 BC or was a latter addition?


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As I have explained before my field of expertise is history not genetics. I like to compliments my knowledge of history with genetics when we're talking about ancient immigrations but I'm really not an expert. Thus I do not make conclusions or discuss a lot about genetics I only mentioned what I have read in studies I can read online in scientific magazines like nature or science.

The study claimed that there was a flow of this haplogroup from Southern Greece and the Balkans to Sicily in antiquity during the Greek colonization. So by the arcade and classical. Of Greece 800 to 400 BC it's obvious that high blood group E existed strongly in Greece. The same paper claimed that this particular mutation of capital group E appeared in the southern Balkans thousands of years ago. But the specific location or it's geographic distribution at the time is unknown. An event which could have saved the demography of ancient Greece is the Dorian invasion.

Scholars have adopted one of two theories regarding this historical event. Some claim it was small in numbers and didn't really affect the population which it assimilated to Dorian culture. Some say that the invasion included significant numbers of people. If you were to hypothesize that dorians contributed to an increased presence of capital group E in southern Greece you wouldn't be baseless. But to what I'm aware of there is no study which has shown what happened group The dorians had or what it was its contribution in the Southern Bank and peninsula. Generally as I've understood it it's pretty hard to use genetics for immigration in a small geographic area by neighboring and similar people.

So my answer would be that I do not know whether it was strongly present in the peloponnese at 1200 BC. It's definitely was heavily present by the time of Greek expansion due to it's being found in Sicily southern Italy Corsica southern France and being directly linked to the historical event. But other than that I really cannot give you anything else if you find something let me know.
 
From Wikipedia alone I understand the following:

found that while Greek colonization left little significant genetic contribution, data analysis sampling 12 sites in the Italian peninsula supported a male
Overall the estimated Central Balkan and North Western European paternal contributions in South Italy and Sicily are about 63% and 26% respectively.


I really don't want to be one of those who are quick to mention how unreliable Wikipedia is but as a guy who has had to dive deep in many historical events and specified subjects I can guarantee you that Wikipedia is really inaccurate when the topic is really specific or is really specialized.

So the only thing I can really tell you is that as you can read in nature magazine if you Google "genetic input of Greeks in Sicily". They don't study found that Greek colonization had a substantial effect of around 37% of the total gene pool of Sicily. This is not that off from the number 26% percent.

I said also told you you'll find that haplogroup E v13 is directly related with this event, not only in Sicily but I'm the whole of Western Mediterranean.

For me this shows two things.
1)That haplogroup E v13 was heavily reosrested in ancient southern balkan peninsula and specifically Greece.
2) that the comparison of ancient Greeks with modern Southern Italians is wrong. since Southern Italians and especially Sicilians draw most of their genetics from non Greek sources including Middle East North Africa Northern Italy and native Sicilians
 
I am interested in seeing more E-V13 subclades in Peloponessus, it seems to be dominated by E-V13 S2979 subclade. One specific subclade of S2979 is present in Peloponessus and also present among Apuglians so very likely stemming from Dorians.
 
I am interested in seeing more E-V13 subclades in Peloponessus, it seems to be dominated by E-V13 S2979 subclade. One specific subclade of S2979 is present in Peloponessus and also present among Apuglians so very likely stemming from Dorians.

Well yes I guess. But In such a tight and interconnected geographic area such as the Southern Balkans especially if we consider that this is the region where this particular haplogroup E v13 appeared there it would be very hard to relate a specific subclades to a specific region. But maybe it could be easier to correlate these subclades with a specific historical event in southern Italy as you said and the Western Mediterranean since haplogroup E v13 arrived there through population movement from the Balkans recently in this is relatively well known.

But again I'm not a geneticist or something so I would rather not rush to conclusions because there is always the chance that an account of my liking of understanding I misinterpret them.

The research team didn't really emphasize the existence of different subclades of Ev13. It could be possible that those subclades are really geographically spread since antiquity.

Judging on the high amount of haplogroups in Greeks albanians in southern Italians and the fact that since prehistoric times the region has had the extreme population mixing (ancestral sources, like Indo europeans, Anatolian farmer's, neo lithic hunter gatherers) I would question whether the dorians had only one prevailing haplogroup, let alone subclade.

But you could be totally right.
 
Well yes I guess. But In such a tight and interconnected geographic area such as the Southern Balkans especially if we consider that this is the region where this particular haplogroup E v13 appeared there it would be very hard to relate a specific subclades to a specific region. But maybe it could be easier to correlate these subclades with a specific historical event in southern Italy as you said and the Western Mediterranean since haplogroup E v13 arrived there through population movement from the Balkans recently in this is relatively well known.
But again I'm not a geneticist or something so I would rather not rush to conclusions because there is always the chance that an account of my liking of understanding I misinterpret them.
The research team didn't really emphasize the existence of different subclades of Ev13. It could be possible that those subclades are really geographically spread since antiquity.
Judging on the high amount of haplogroups in Greeks albanians in southern Italians and the fact that since prehistoric times the region has had the extreme population mixing (ancestral sources, like Indo europeans, Anatolian farmer's, neo lithic hunter gatherers) I would question whether the dorians had only one prevailing haplogroup, let alone subclade.
But you could be totally right.

I mentioned only the E-V13 part of the Dorians, didn't specify that they were 100% E-V13. Of course they could have been a mix of various Y-DNA.

There is J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and perhaps some T as well.
 
I mentioned only the E-V13 part of the Dorians, didn't specify that they were 100% E-V13. Of course they could have been a mix of various Y-DNA.

There is J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and perhaps some T as well.

Yeah I know what you mean. It's clear that southern Italy and southern balkans have historic and subsequently genetic ties.

It could be possible Also for Dorian's to have some I2 a different subclade than the slavic one, but many Cretans have I2 and crete was Also colonized by Dorian's. I don't, know all these are really speculative
 
found that while Gree
So the only thing I can really tell you is that as you can read in nature magazine if you Google "genetic input of Greeks in Sicily". They don't study found that Greek colonization had a substantial effect of around 37% of the total gene pool of Sicily. This is not that off from the number 26% percent.

Sorry, you've lost me. Southern Italy has nothing like 26pc Northwest European.

Only some areas in the Italian Alps equal or exceed that figure.:confused:
 
EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.

The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.

These Locals may have carried EV13
 
Yeah I know what you mean. It's clear that southern Italy and southern balkans have historic and subsequently genetic ties.
It could be possible Also for Dorian's to have some I2 a different subclade than the slavic one, but many Cretans have I2 and crete was Also colonized by Dorian's. I don't, know all these are really speculative

Some I clades have been found in ancient Minoan people from Crete which were analyzed.

I don't remember though if it was I2
 
EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.

The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.

These Locals may have carried EV13

It most likely arrived to the peloponnese from somewhere. I don't know though if this was in late pre historic times. It totally could be there for many thousands year's, seeing how haplogroup E arrived in Europe ~25.000 years ago. Judging by it existing from Serbia to Crete, it's totally possible that maybe we are looking for a specific event/migration which happened in so early that we can't know anything about it. Although tbh, it's first appearance and it's modern existence in the peloponnese must be pretty different. I would argue, that it existed a time when Haplogroup E-v13 was really dominant in southern balkans, before the arrival of the Anatolian farmers who impacted a lot places like Greece (where nowadays, most of the gene pool is of those Anatolians) and the later Slavic invasion which completely changed the northern Balkans. Kosovo could be an example of how large parts if Serbia and Dalmatia were before the slavic invasion.
 
It most likely arrived to the peloponnese from somewhere. I don't know though if this was in late pre historic times. It totally could be there for many thousands year's, seeing how haplogroup E arrived in Europe ~25.000 years ago. Judging by it existing from Serbia to Crete, it's totally possible that maybe we are looking for a specific event/migration which happened in so early that we can't know anything about it. Although tbh, it's first appearance and it's modern existence in the peloponnese must be pretty different. I would argue, that it existed a time when Haplogroup E-v13 was really dominant in southern balkans, before the arrival of the Anatolian farmers who impacted a lot places like Greece (where nowadays, most of the gene pool is of those Anatolians) and the later Slavic invasion which completely changed the northern Balkans. Kosovo could be an example of how large parts if Serbia and Dalmatia were before the slavic invasion.

My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.

Just one possibility

Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.
 
EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.

The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.

These Locals may have carried EV13

Seriously......


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My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.

Just one possibility

Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.

Urnfield Hungary, would be a better guess, it exploded with urnfield culture.


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