Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

I agree. I believe a portion of the Arvanite or Greek Albanian population fully assimilated and really never considered themselves distinct. I do believe based on recent 23 and Me results as well as the G 25 calculator that I’m somewhere in the vicinity of 25% Albanian.
 
Arvanites in 19th century were 15% of the Early Greek state 12.5% of Peloponesse and 3.7% of overall Greek population excluding Northern mainland and rural zones so around 4% to 5% in total. In 15th century in Peloponnese Arvanites were around 30% to 40% according to Ottoman census.


Here is a real census from the 19th century and not Albanian hot air.
It is around 3% of the Early (and small) Greek state, and around 4% in Peloponnese. Their Numbers will remain the same for the 30-40 years, when the settlement of Refugees and mass Education would favorite Greek.
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Here is a real census from the 19th century and not Albanian hot air.
It is around 3% of the Early (and small) Greek state, and around 4% in Peloponnese. Their Numbers will remain the same for the 30-40 years, when the settlement of Refugees and mass Education would favorite Greek.
View attachment 11913
Do you seriously think that Greek census is reliable?
arvanitika_horia_hartis_lithoxooy.jpg

This doesn't look 3% to me.
 
Do you seriously think that Greek census is reliable?
arvanitika_horia_hartis_lithoxooy.jpg

This doesn't look 3% to me.

That's just dots on the map some person drew 150 years later, for god knows why.
Arvanites were recorded in census going back 150 years. ALL other estimations are based on the TOTAL population of the areas they lived. Which i call wishful thinking
 
This paper is superficial, no depth, no evidence. This concludes my argument here.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Wow guess that map confirms the Albanian connection.My maternal grandfather was from Aetos Messinia and his father was the mayor in the late 1800’s. No family member ever mentioned this to me.
 
Any data on this, like Y-DNA percentages of Tsakonians and Maniots?

Autosomally i have heard Tsakonians and Maniots to be very Southern European, not influenced by Slavic migration at all.
 
Any data on this, like Y-DNA percentages of Tsakonians and Maniots?

Autosomally i have heard Tsakonians and Maniots to be very Southern European, not influenced by Slavic migration at all.

Yes from all accounts and results I’ve seen that’s true. Deep Mani was essentially impenetrable to post 6th C Slav incursion and the Slavs (Melengi) were situated in the more accessible regions of Laconia. The Eastern Tsakonians in the Parnon Mountains of (now) Arcadia were also pretty isolated. The Tsakonian and Maniot results seem to be on par with Southern Italians/Eastern Sicilians so yes much more Southern Med Europe than other mainland Greeks which may pull either NW or NE.
 
Haven't read all the posts here but I find it problematic the paper didn't attempt any comparisons with the neighbouring Slavophone populations: North Macedonians and Bulgarians. Was there any follow-up?
 
Haven't read all the posts here but I find it problematic the paper didn't attempt any comparisons with the neighbouring Slavophone populations: North Macedonians and Bulgarians. Was there any follow-up?

We may be able to make inferences from a few other studies, including one with some of the same authors as this study (Neolithic maritime colonization of Europe). In the maritime study Peloponnesians seem close to “East Rumelia” (south Bulgaria location) but more distant from Serbians (also the case in a Crete study).

Hopefully someday we will get south Balkan genetic results from after the Mycenaeans and before the Slavic invasions. At least two studies indicate modern south Balkans populations have significant/substantial descent from Anatolian Neolithic farmers. We really don’t know what we’ll find but I’d be surprised if the missing samples deviate very much from the Neolithic farmers.
 
The Maniots used in this study strongly overlap with Abruzzes with one being really close to Sicilians and Myceneans. But Abruzzes are really close to Sicilians too.
zeKvWAg_d.webp
 
No modern population has ancestry identical to the ancient Greeks, but for both ancient Peloponnesians and Mycenaeans the closest appear to be southern Italians and European Jews. I don't know if the greater proximity is due to historical facts like Magna Grecia or convergence of ancestry by other factors. I believe that there is ancient Greek ancestry in southern Italy.

Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean ( Ancient )
0.04621749 Italian_Calabria
0.04809301 Italian_Campania
0.04995337 Italian_Apulia
0.04999662 Italian_Basilicata
0.05085840 Sicilian_East
0.05100394 Greek_Kos
0.05364142 Italian_Jew
0.05422889 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05499403 Italian_Molise
0.05550306 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05562459 Greek_Crete
0.05592334 Greek_Izmir
0.05626353 Maltese
0.05656291 Italian_Lazio
0.05678297 Romaniote_Jew
0.05702418 Greek_Peloponnese
0.05864657 Sicilian_West
0.05865498 Italian_Umbria
0.05947326 Sephardic_Jew
0.06132962 Italian_Marche
0.06302862 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.06323593 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06498286 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.06505373 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06516680 Cypriot
0.06542563 French_Corsica
0.06565813 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.06637160 Italian_Tuscany
0.07008550 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Distance to: GRC_Peloponnese_N ( ancient )
0.07906802 Sardinian
0.10066285 Italian_Jew
0.10100808 Italian_Campania
0.10105324 Italian_Calabria
0.10258457 Italian_Apulia
0.10324413 Romaniote_Jew
0.10340779 Sicilian_East
0.10353597 Italian_Basilicata
0.10391238 Greek_Kos
0.10437045 Italian_Lazio
0.10610497 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.10633783 Sephardic_Jew
 
No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
View attachment 11902
Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.

What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.

Haha hilarious stuff, north albania is the least mixed place in all of Europe.

If you want to talk about mixed go look at the state of Greek y dna, as far as I can tell Greece suffered a lot from ottoman era genetically. I would also say some of the albanian & especially slavic y dna in greece is from ottoman deployment because it simply has too much to be logical

There is no such thing as turkoalbanian, Albanians spread their y dna in Turkey (because they were taken there) not the other way round, most albanians are too racist to mix with others

Autosomal dna means nothing because it comes from women too and Muslim women from middle east were shared around in ottoman era, only thing you need to be concerned with is y dna because that is what makes a country/race
 
^^Rarely have I heard such nonsense. It's also nonsense which is totally off topic. This is not a thread for prolonged analysis of Albanian genetics.

Now, this is too important a thread to close, so some of you are going to be silenced if you don't stop posting a-scientific drivel and take your disputes to the Balkan thread dedicated to your fraternal fights.

I am also considering just deleting all these Albanian genetics posts, so if you want to preserve them, do it now, and post on the appropriate threads.

Posts with nonsense about identity being tied only to the y chromosome will be among the first to go.

Last warning.
 
^^Rarely have I heard such nonsense. It's also nonsense which is totally off topic. This is not a thread for prolonged analysis of Albanian genetics.

Now, this is too important a thread to close, so some of you are going to be silenced if you don't stop posting a-scientific drivel and take your disputes to the Balkan thread dedicated to your fraternal fights.

I am also considering just deleting all these Albanian genetics posts, so if you want to preserve them, do it now, and post on the appropriate threads.

Posts with nonsense about identity being tied only to the y chromosome will be among the first to go.

Last warning.

I apologise but you cant allow people to make false claims when we have dna tests now. Words like "turkoalbanian" shouldn't be allowed especially when aimed at North albanians - it is scientifically proven false BS, utterly ridiculous

A lot of greeks today look like this guy and try to ignore their history and the history of others -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbqdEna2Ww

Genetics can tell us more about our past than most other things can as most history was written from different points of view and some people did not care for writing so history is skewed, not to mention there was pillaging, thieves etc. Y dna is relevant because it was mostly men who moved around and decided how things should be instead of women. But yes, in modern age it is different
 
Parapolitikos: one more stupid t-rolling comment from you against Albanians and you're going to go to sleep for a long time.

Any more off topic comments and I'll temporarily close the thread and remove as many as I have the patience to do.

I also don't want to see any more sexist b.s. that the only thing that matters is the y chromosome for identity.

Am I clear?

Now don't ruin today for those of us who celebrate it. Have some consideration and civility.
 
The Tsakonians appear to be interesting. They are separated from the Peloponnesian cluster in the PC map, in which Deep Mani occupies the southern end. It is said or theorized somewhere that Tsakonians came to Arcadia from east Laconia, escaping some invasion and bringing their Doric dialect with them. But Deep Mani, also in Laconia and historically considered to be different than the rest of the Peloponnese (Mani was another refuge for Greeks escaping invasions), is quite different than Tsakonians. So maybe Tsakonians are indigenous in east Arcadia and a different “tribe” of Greek speakers than the Deep Mani ancestors?
4AD9E55C-1C23-4BB8-A37B-BD331FF08D6C.jpg
 
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No modern population has ancestry identical to the ancient Greeks, but for both ancient Peloponnesians and Mycenaeans the closest appear to be southern Italians and European Jews. I don't know if the greater proximity is due to historical facts like Magna Grecia or convergence of ancestry by other factors. I believe that there is ancient Greek ancestry in southern Italy.

I think this is mostly due to with their ancestral components' percentages being similar after PCA analysis. It doesn't necessarily mean recent common heritage. Lots of Greeks and Italians plot close to Ashkenazi Jews but score 0% Ashkenazi on 23andMe and MyHeritage (which have a lot of Ashkenazis in their databases). We do share neolithic ancestry for sure, but ethnic groupings like Jews, Romans, etc came later.
 
A lot of greeks today look like this guy and try to ignore their history and the history of others -

I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.
 
I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.

I didn't say there is anything wrong with it but you have to say he doesn't look "european", we need to understand from you greeks what did the ancient greeks look like because you can't seem to decide. For me, that guy looks typical middle eastern and you will find a lot similar in turkey because the history of the ottoman is a continuation of the islamic caliphates before it. They spoke arabic and persian as did most of the middle east by that point so migration from middle east would have been quite common, especially in terms of joining their "army"

Which would you say are the true original Greek y dna that have carried into today?
Don't forget greeks and persians share a history of j2a so with that you have to be careful when deciding which sub clades in greeks today are carried from ancient greeks and which are from possible ottoman settlement/deployment
 

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