Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[ihype02]

You missed my point. The point is that all Europeans overlap with Myceneans depending on the sample, for example Serbs in that study turned out to be Minoans. Unless the Greek population have been replaced with eg. Native Americans or Ethopians the study would show any meaningful results. All humans share similar DNA.
Mycenaeans were replaced by Dorians. Even the ancient Hellenes were not overwhelmingly of Mycenaean origin.
http://www.historywiz.com/mycenaeanfall.htm

 

[Angela]

You missed my point. The point is that all Europeans overlap with Myceneans depending on the sample, for example Serbs in that study turned out to be Minoans. Unless the Greek population have been replaced with eg. Native Americans or Ethopians the study would show any meaningful results. All humans share similar DNA.
Mycenaeans were replaced by Dorians. Even the ancient Hellenes were not overwhelmingly of Mycenaean origin.
http://www.historywiz.com/mycenaeanfall.htm

That is completely contrary to all the scientific genetic evidence at our disposal and should therefore just be ignored.

This is almost aluminum hat territory: no, Serbs are nowhere near as "Minoan" as mainland Greeks, who would be at least about 58% Minoan like if you subtract the 15% "new" steppe ancestry from the Mycenaean number. Do you honestly think such absurd claims are going to convince anyone?

Look, I know it's sticking in the craw of some Balkanites that the Mycenaeans, and no doubt the classical Greeks, who gave so much to Europe and indeed the world are closer genetically even to mainland Greeks than they are to people from further north in the Balkans, but it is what it is, and you just look ridiculous trying to desperately deny it.

Like it or not, the further north you go in the Balkans, the less genetic similarity there will be to the ancient Greeks. There will be a lot, because you're still majority "southern" Europeans, but you have too much late arriving "Slavic", and perhaps even some Celtic and Germanic to be as close as the Greeks. That's perhaps all going to make you less similar to the people of the great cultures of "Old Europe" too, although still very related, although we have to wait for the comparisons to be made of modern people to those ancient samples.

 

[ihype02]

I was being ironic about Serbs being "Minoans". Incase you didn't recognize it.

 

[Jovialis]

Incase you didn't recognize it.

Don't worry, we don't recognize anything you have said.

 

[LeBrok]

I don't know if I necessarily agree with your assessment. I haven't read anything (that is sensible) that suggests that mainland Greeks cluster with Slavs and certainly nothing that suggests Near Eastern affinity. As far as Central and Southern Italians are concerned they're genetic proximity to Greeks can't be denied. My own raw data has me consistently near various Central and Southern Italian samples. Why couldn't those samples be a proxy for Mainland Greeks. I agree Mycaeneans aren't Greeks but Greeks have a unique genetic makeup that varies region to region but as someone on this site pointed out mainland Greeks as a whole are fairly uniform.

You missed my point. The point is that all Europeans overlap with Myceneans depending on the sample, for example Serbs in that study turned out to be Minoans. Unless the Greek population have been replaced with eg. Native Americans or Ethopians the study would show any meaningful results. All humans share similar DNA.
Mycenaeans were replaced by Dorians. Even the ancient Hellenes were not overwhelmingly of Mycenaean origin.
http://www.historywiz.com/mycenaeanfall.htm

Hey guys, to avoid misunderstandings use Reply With Quote button of the post you are referring to. Thanks

 

[Joey D]

It's good that the science can confirm the absolute bleeding obvious.

Southern Italians and Sicilians clustering with the Peloponnese and Aegean islands - well knock me down with a feather, I'll be buggered! What a revelation!

We know there's a continuum from Cyprus through the Greek Islands to Southern Italy and Sicily.

We know that populations established in an area for hundreds (and even thousands) of years result in DNA which is very, very difficult to dislodge without major events.

In the case of Southern Italy and Sicily, one such major event was the establishment of Greek colonies starting around 750BC which came to be known as Magna Graecia, absorbing most of the original populations over a period of some 500 years or so.

Obviously DNA aligns very closely between Southern Italy/Sicily and the Aegean to the present day, which quite clearly is the Magna Graecia effect and quite clearly we talking substantially about shared DNA going back to the classical age.

The changes to Sicilian DNA have been tiny since that event.

Even with how close North Africa is to Sicily, and the periods of shared history, such as 150 years of Saracen rule, the impact on Sicilian DNA has been tiny. I show up as being 2% North African. My GedMatch calcs throw up Greek over and over and over (Eurogenes K13 below).

The main complication is not so much the obvious Greek input into Sicilian DNA, or the differing inputs, but the shared DNA which might exist from Sicily's original inhabitants (Elymian, Sicani and Siculi), some of whom may have passed through the Aegean, and/or Anatolia, and/or the Caucusus, and may already have shared DNA with the Greeks, or related peoples. In fact, for mine, it is this latter question which is the most intriguing of all: why exactly do Sicilians throw up links to Anatolia and the Caucusus? Surely one or more of the Elymian, Sicani or Siculi carried this?

Population		K13
East_Med	32.02
West_Med	21.60
West_Asian	17.55
North_Atlantic	16.11
Baltic	7.62
Red_Sea	1.72
Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 5.035903
2 Central_Greek @ 5.834502
3 East_Sicilian @ 6.550463
4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.940369
5 West_Sicilian @ 9.769127
6 Ashkenazi @ 9.952132
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.608373

 

[matadworf]

It's good that the science can confirm the absolute bleeding obvious.

Southern Italians and Sicilians clustering with the Peloponnese and Aegean islands - well knock me down with a feather, I'll be buggered! What a revelation!

We know there's a continuum from Cyprus through the Greek Islands to Southern Italy and Sicily.

We know that populations established in an area for hundreds (and even thousands) of years result in DNA which is very, very difficult to dislodge without major events.

In the case of Southern Italy and Sicily, one such major event was the establishment of Greek colonies starting around 750BC which came to be known as Magna Graecia, absorbing most of the original populations over a period of some 500 years or so.

Obviously DNA aligns very closely between Southern Italy/Sicily and the Aegean to the present day, which quite clearly is the Magna Graecia effect and quite clearly we talking substantially about shared DNA going back to the classical age.

The changes to Sicilian DNA have been tiny since that event.

Even with how close North Africa is to Sicily, and the periods of shared history, such as 150 years of Saracen rule, the impact on Sicilian DNA has been tiny. I show up as being 2% North African. My GedMatch calcs throw up Greek over and over and over (Eurogenes K13 below).

The main complication is not so much the obvious Greek input into Sicilian DNA, or the differing inputs, but the shared DNA which might exist from Sicily's original inhabitants (Elymian, Sicani and Siculi), some of whom may have passed through the Aegean, and/or Anatolia, and/or the Caucusus, and may already have shared DNA with the Greeks, or related peoples. In fact, for mine, it is this latter question which is the most intriguing of all: why exactly do Sicilians throw up links to Anatolia and the Caucusus? Surely one or more of the Elymian, Sicani or Siculi carried this?

Population		K13
East_Med	32.02
West_Med	21.60
West_Asian	17.55
North_Atlantic	16.11
Baltic	7.62
Red_Sea	1.72
Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 5.035903
2 Central_Greek @ 5.834502
3 East_Sicilian @ 6.550463
4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.940369
5 West_Sicilian @ 9.769127
6 Ashkenazi @ 9.952132
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.608373

Out of curiosity where does the West Asian come from? And I notice in my own results that there is a definite pull towards the NE (higher Baltic) which makes sense given the Slavic incursions into Greece.

 

[Constantine]

For any newbies, this is absolute bunk.

None of the recent papers even mentions haplogroups (uniparental markers), so that's a complete straw man argument. As is the statement that anyone says the Greeks are the most indigenous population. I would challenge you to find such a statement and post it. I would join you in disagreeing with it.

These studies are based on total genetic similarity, i.e. autosomes. You really shouldn't be in the business of criticizing something you have clearly made no effort to understand.

All the papers are saying is that there has been genetic continuity in mainland Greece since the time of the Mycenaeans. None of the researchers has said there have been no changes in their genomes since then. In fact, they said the opposite. An autosomal similarity of approximately 73% is not total similarity.

As for when and why the changes occurred, we have to wait for the ancient dna, unless you happen to have some Dorian remains stashed away someplace that you've had tested at a top notch lab? Stop talking through your hat.

As for denying that there was some input into Greece from Slavic speaking peoples, good luck with that. As to percentages, unlike you I don't have a crystal ball, so I'll wait for the ancient dna. There is absolutely no logic in stating that some degree of admixture would make Greeks cluster with Poles or Russians. You would need near total replacement for that, which obviously didn't happen.

Please also stop with the racist East Europeans have East Asian and southern Italians have African nonsense. Do some people in those areas have a few percent of that ancestry? Yes, they do, as do people in Spain and Portugal. So what? What's wrong with it? Plus, it's not enough to change overall similarity.

The sheer nonsense of saying that the first Greek speakers weren't really Greek boggles the mind and doesn't really deserve an answer.

Some issues:

1) I mentioned nothing about haplogroups being mentioned in scientific papers. I said *some people in this forum* like to get "creative" with haplogroups.

2) That Greeks are the most indigenous population is *my* assessment, not anyone else's.

3) I know what the papers say. I only made one (vague) reference to a paper; almost all of my post is directed toward opinions I see bandied about in this thread. That means PEOPLE, not papers.

4) 73% similarity is not total similarity because *a lot* has happened between Mycenaeans and Slavs. Most of the the remaining percentage can easily be deduced and is quite obvious. (Good) anthropologists figured this out almost a hundred years ago, and the DNA evidence is merely (albeit slowly, bit by bit) recapitulating what they said.

5) And I'm not being racist. East Asian/African are Facts that I see all over 23andMe, Gedmatch, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Modern Greeks have to have one or the other (or even both) for these dilution theories to make any sense. They have neither, at least in relation to the peoples discussed, and hence, they must be the most indigenous.

Some of you paint my post as unscientific, but your ad-hominen name-calling, emotional tones, not even understanding what I write seem like poor science on your end.

 

[Joey D]

Out of curiosity where does the West Asian come from? And I notice in my own results that there is a definite pull towards the NE (higher Baltic) which makes sense given the Slavic incursions into Greece.

Partly why I ask about the origins of the early pre-Greek inhabitants in Sicily (Elymians, Sicani and Sicels).

Depending on how they define West Asia, but I know my various calcs regularly throw up links to the Levant (Lebanon/Syria/Israel); Anatolia and the Caucusus (Armenia, Georgia, Ossetia and Abkahzia). In fact, my Ancestry DNA results shows Caucusus as being 17%, while Italy/Greece is 74%.

Phoenician settlements in Western Sicily from around 1100BC (later taken over by the Carthaginians), might explain DNA from the Levant, as might flows of muslims during the Saracen reign, as might Sicily's large Jewish population that had lived in Sicily for some 1,500 years before they were expelled in 1493, and may have made up around 8% of the population at some point - or it might be shared DNA from the neolithic.

As for Anatolia and the Caucusus, I'm thinking this is something very old, and I can't help thinking it relates to Sicily's pre-Greek inhabitants. As others have stated here and elsewhere, we can't discount the possibility that some of these DNA flows are also shared with the Aegean, in other words, DNA similarities between Sicily and Greece are not restricted to the classical age, but could be even older.

Some of the more distant readings coming out of K13 (which often come up in most of the calculators):

12 Cyprian @ 16.361963
13 Libyan_Jewish @ 16.398252
14 Tuscan @ 16.539730
15 Lebanese_Muslim @ 20.270666
16 Turkish @ 20.511642
17 Syrian @ 22.094732
18 Bulgarian @ 22.195393
19 North_Italian @ 23.482134
20 Romanian @ 24.759869

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Armenian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 4.459842
2 Armenian + Ashkenazi + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.490211
3 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Central_Greek + North_Italian @ 4.499205
4 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 4.503705
5 Assyrian + North_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.596081
6 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Tuscan @ 4.604049
7 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.608373
8 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.632735
9 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.634153
10 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 4.636154
11 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.676492
12 Armenian + East_Sicilian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 4.680919
13 Armenian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Serbian @ 4.684395
14 Armenian + Ashkenazi + Cyprian + Spanish_Valencia @ 4.701924
15 Central_Greek + South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.703184
16 Armenian + Ashkenazi + South_Italian + Tuscan @ 4.708105
17 Armenian + Ashkenazi + Tuscan + West_Sicilian @ 4.708322
18 Assyrian + Central_Greek + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.710711
19 Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 4.716255
20 Armenian + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 4.718494

 

[Nik]

Out of curiosity where does the West Asian come from? And I notice in my own results that there is a definite pull towards the NE (higher Baltic) which makes sense given the Slavic incursions into Greece.

Again, just like the Greek member from Pylos, your NE pull could be better explained by Arvanite admixture since you're from Messinia and have a grandmother from Arcadia.

 

[matadworf]

Again, just like the Greek member from Pylos, your NE pull could be better explained by Arvanite admixture since you're from Messinia and have a grandmother from Arcadia.

True I even believe that my maternal grandfather's village (Aetos, Messinia) may have been Arvanite at one time as indicated by a map of Albanian speaking villages from the 1890's. In the 1960's he wrote a brief story of his life and family (that was in my mom's possession) but didn't make mention of any Arvanite connection so I'm not sure.

 

[Angela]

I mentioned nothing about haplogroups being mentioned in scientific papers. I said *some people in this forum* like to get "creative" with haplogroups.

Since no one is discussing them and the thread is about autosomal results, and, in addition, we've mentioned in passing that any likely "steppe" haplogroups are rare in Greece, that was just a gratuitous shot at the forum and perhaps Maciamo, and I didn't appreciate it.

That Greeks are the most indigenous population is *my* assessment, not anyone else's.

Your clear implication seemed to me to be that I or other members posting on this thread are implying that Greeks are the most "indigenous" population in Europe, which is absolutely not true. We are neither saying it nor is it an objective fact, so your perception is incorrect. What seems increasingly obvious, however, is that in Europe as elsewhere the rule is population stasis for long periods of time punctuated by occasional mass migrations if we are talking about massive changes in the genome, and that for many European countries, MUCH, but by no means ALL of the genetic variation was already in place by the end of the Bronze Age. This is true even in the case of England, I think, where the Anglo-Saxon invasions, for example, are responsible for about 30% as a maximum of the genome in certain areas. Not, I hasten to add, that this is more "virtuous" or to be celebrated. It just is....

73% similarity is not total similarity because *a lot* has happened between Mycenaeans and Slavs. Most of the the remaining percentage can easily be deduced and is quite obvious. (Good) anthropologists figured this out almost a hundred years ago, and the DNA evidence is merely (albeit slowly, bit by bit) recapitulating what they said.

Again, this is a straw man argument. It has been specifically said over and over again in this thread by me and others that 73% similarity is not TOTAL similarity. How many times does it have to be repeated? I would argue also that a lot of anthropologists thought that the ancient Greek physiognomy was "Nordic", which is a crock, but that's neither here nor there. We're talking genetics.

And I'm not being racist. East Asian/African are Facts that I see all over 23andMe, Gedmatch, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Modern Greeks have to have one or the other (or even both) for these dilution theories to make any sense. They have neither, at least in relation to the peoples discussed, and hence, they must be the most indigenous.

I share with a lot of southern Italians and some Iberians at 23andme. What I see on 23andme is .8, .6, occasionally 1%, sometimes no SSA. Some of the Iberian scores are around the same, some a bit higher depending on the area, but in the same general ball park. On gedmatch the combination for West African and East African, the latter of which may be very old, is around 1.5% for southern Italy/Sicily. This strikes you as significant enough to bring up, does it? Also, I see no reason for mainland Greece to ever have had it. It seems pretty clear to me that most of it in southern Italy and Iberia is the result of the Moorish invasions, which didn't at all impact mainland Greece.

So, sorry, but your comments still seem like "sour grapes" to me.

 

[Nik]

True I even believe that my maternal grandfather's village (Aetos, Messinia) may have been Arvanite at one time as indicated by a map of Albanian speaking villages from the 1890's. In the 1960's he wrote a brief story of his life and family (that was in my mom's possession) but didn't make mention of any Arvanite connection so I'm not sure.

Unfortunately politics and religion have separated us for centuries, so I don't think anyone would want to publicly declare of having ties with Albanians at that time.

P.s. I'm currently listening to a Greek song from Sakis Arseniou

 

[matadworf]

Unfortunately politics and religion have separated us for centuries, so I don't think anyone would want to publicly declare of having ties with Albanians at that time.

P.s. I'm currently listening to a Greek song from Sakis Arseniou

Interesting. You know it's probably for another thread but here in the US especially among the first wave immigrants who arrived in the US in the early 1900s ( like all four of my grandparents) they bonded with Albanian immigrants as both groups faced pretty severe discrimination.

 

[ihype02]

With regards to the Slavic settlements in Peloponnese, even if they were pure Polish-like with no admixture whatsoever, they could never be enough to drastically change the genetic makeup, especially after the massive waves of Albanians coming from the North and bringing even more almost identical genetic makeup to the region. That is why I brought them up, as they would have easily outnumbered any Slavic migration, knowning that in the entire Balkans the number of Slavs was 100,000.

Where do you base that the number of Slavs was 100,000?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

True I even believe that my maternal grandfather's village (Aetos, Messinia) may have been Arvanite at one time as indicated by a map of Albanian speaking villages from the 1890's. In the 1960's he wrote a brief story of his life and family (that was in my mom's possession) but didn't make mention of any Arvanite connection so I'm not sure.

.
Hi, it is always interesting these kind of personal stories, actually myself I was wondered for a while about your grandmother...
Without know the details, I guess that there is no reason -for her- to vanish all her memories, especially if she was Arvanitan. I mean that, Arvanites at that time, -as today also-, were well respected with a lot of political power with good economy, strong tradition and culture, as well a dinstictive language and passion for their origins... So...
If a person have the courage to write, - "to live again", I would better say- , her memories, how could forget her special and dinstictive roots. The Arvanitans are very proud for their stock, they have their songs, and their unigue culture.
How a person to "overrun" such a strong tradition and all these customs and ethos which springs from mother and daughter... Like a lullaby.
Sometimes I think that all "sacred things'' we have, is based up on womans effort, That's isn't the reason behind we usually speak for "Mother Tongue".


I think if she was Arvanitan you would knew it. But that's -just- my speculation...

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

Unfortunately politics and religion have separated us for centuries, so I don't think anyone would want to publicly declare of having ties with Albanians at that time.

P.s. I'm currently listening to a Greek song from Sakis Arseniou

.
Sorry, but this is not how the things "work" here - in Greece-, Not only I cannot confirm you, but
I express my deep disapointment for your statement and I reject it. Not only just it isn't true but it is a big lie.
Here we have only proud Arvanitans, proud Vlachs, proud Tsakonians, proud Saracatsans etc. and guess, they all have a good reason to be here.

We're the Neohellenes better from the old ones. We have the "pattern" to innovate ourselves.
-LOL but true!

 

[Nik]

.
Sorry, but this is not how the things "work" here - in Greece-, Not only I cannot confirm you, but
I express my deep disapointment for your statement and I reject it. Not only just it isn't true but it is a big lie.
Here we have only proud Arvanitans, proud Vlachs, proud Tsakonians, proud Saracatsans etc. and guess, they all have a good reason to be here.

We're the Neohellenes better from the old ones. We have the "pattern" to innovate ourselves.
-LOL but true!

Sorry, but you can't know it all when it comes to how things work in Greece. There are examples that prove my points and examples of amazing humans which you talk of. One of my father's best friend is an Arvanite just like many other people I know, and all seem to confirm that back in the days the repression was real. Hundreds of stories about Cretan policemen abusing children for speaking Arvanitika, propaganda of how Arvanitika is the language of backward savages and BS like it being an old Hellenic dialect, or Greek colonizers in Illyria who got Illyrianized, or Epirotans who got Albanized, etc. Now if you're going to say that this is not true, I will provide links to Greek documentaries on the unique Arvanitan Hellenic culture and their ancient Hellenic dialect. The process of assimilation was so extreme that many of them turned against Albanians and seeing us as their worst enemy. But they get surprisingly friendly and curious once they see the cross around my neck. I wonder why.

There are also cases of Arbereshe in USA knowing only that they're Italian and finding out late they're actually Arbereshe, so no surprise there.

Back to the topic, I would personally attribute the higher "Slavic" admixture to the Vlachs in both Greece and Albania. It's not far fetched to think that Thracians had more NE admixture than Illyrians and Greeks.

 

[Angela]

I'm not going to say this again. This is a genetics thread. If you want to discuss this, transfer your posts to the Balkanian Disagreements Thread so you don't ruin it for people actually interested in genetics.

Do you guys really want me to start issuing infractions again?

 

[matadworf]

.
Sorry, but this is not how the things "work" here - in Greece-, Not only I cannot confirm you, but
I express my deep disapointment for your statement and I reject it. Not only just it isn't true but it is a big lie.
Here we have only proud Arvanitans, proud Vlachs, proud Tsakonians, proud Saracatsans etc. and guess, they all have a good reason to be here.

We're the Neohellenes better from the old ones. We have the "pattern" to innovate ourselves.
-LOL but true!

Actually it was my maternal grandfather's village that I was referring to and often wondered about particularly after seeing a map from the 1890s that included his village as Albanian speaking. No my maternal grandmother was from an isolated village on the LaconianArcadian border in the Parnon mts. near Kosmas.