Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[Yetos]

I�ll break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times).

The only thing I didn�t do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian.

Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close.

On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we don�t.

Just remember that thecountryof Fier, Durres, etc were also Greekcolonists,
Fier (Φτερη) was colony of Peloponesians (korintheans)
Also Koryca was at Makedonian Kingdom

So some relations might be vice-versa.
Plz notice also this

 

[matadworf]

I�ll break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times).

The only thing I didn�t do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian.

Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close.

On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we don�t.

One very obvious reason for that is that there are significant parts of the Peloponnese (like Mani and the Eastern Taygetus Tsakonians) that remain exceptionally isolated. Those areas plot further South (less Steppe higher CHG and/or Levant PPNB) than the Peloponnesian average and bring the entire peninsula back towards the mean; i.,e less Slavic and/or Albanian shifted.

 

[matadworf]

How many Albanian matches do you have?

Several on 23 and Me but i just discovered that he/his family were Arvanites.

 

[Fustan]

We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.

Mate I'm albanian from kosovo and Peloponesus is by far my highest match on 23andme.

 

[Bill7]

There is Albanian influence in the Peloponnese it's just not so large as many Albanian nationalists claim to be

 

[Constantine]

There must be more to it than just Albanian influence in the Peloponnese. Arvanites are a minority. Most of the Balkan results I see on 23andMe forums are getting high Peloponnese. I'm pretty sure it's because Peloponnesians in general are just the closest thing to native Balkan ancestry.

 

[blevins13]

There must be more to it than just Albanian influence in the Peloponnese. Arvanites are a minority. Most of the Balkan results I see on 23andMe forums are getting high Peloponnese. I'm pretty sure it's because Peloponnesians in general are just the closest thing to native Balkan ancestry.

If so why?





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[Bill7]

If so why?

View attachment 12888



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What are you trying to say? Do you disagree that the peloponnese is one of the places with the least slavic influence in the balkans and so it should theoretically have the most native balkan genes

 

[blevins13]

What are you trying to say? Do you disagree that the peloponnese is one of the places with the least slavic influence in the balkans and so it should theoretically have the most native balkan genes

What do you mean by native?


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[Bill7]

What do you mean by native?


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Ancient Greek and Paleobalkan

 

[blevins13]

Ancient Greek and Paleobalkan

To me Peloponnesus is close to IA Balkans not to Paleo Balkans. But The matches that Albanians are getting in Peloponnesus are related to more recent events, reflecting the migration waves of the collapse of the Roman Empire and Bizantine Empire.



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[Angela]

What are you trying to say? Do you disagree that the peloponnese is one of the places with the least slavic influence in the balkans and so it should theoretically have the most native balkan genes

It's just the same old, same old: there are no Greeks in Greece, not even in the Peloponnese; they're all Albanians. Some of them will never stop.

 

[blevins13]

It's just the same old, same old: there are no Greeks in Greece, not even in the Peloponnese; they're all Albanians. Some of them will never stop.

I have matches in Peloponnesus, a lot of them, do you believe that they are due to Paleo Balkan or Ancient Greeks.
I have never said there are no Greeks in Greece go back and read my posts before making such claims.


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[ihype02]

I have matches in Peloponnesus, a lot of them, do you believe that they are due to Paleo Balkan or Ancient Greeks.
I have never said there are no Greeks in Greece go back and read my posts before making such claims.


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Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously.
As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.

View attachment 12892

To me Peloponnesus is close to IA Balkans not to Paleo Balkans. But The matches that Albanians are getting in Peloponnesus are related to more recent events, reflecting the migration waves of the collapse of the Roman Empire and Bizantine Empire.



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The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.

 

[blevins13]

Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously.
As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.



The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.

Probably this doesn’t mean any thing, but I have:

299 Dna relatives in Albania
182 Dna relatives in Greece

And still per 23 and me Peloponnesus comes closer than Albania.

Time will tell.


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[Dianatomia]

How Slavic are mainland Greeks if IA Balkan equals Ancient Greek?

How Slavic are Anatolian Greeks if Greek Empuries equals Ancient Greek from Asia Minor?

 

[ihype02]

How Slavic are mainland Greeks if IA Balkan equals Ancient Greek?

22% for Peloponnese to 33% for Macedonia and a bit a higher for Thrace if you use the Iron Age Thracian.

How Slavic are Anatolian Greeks if Greek Empuries equals Ancient Greek from Asia Minor?

Probably falls into the "statistical error" when modeling to make the fit tighter.

 

[blevins13]

Just remember that thecountryof Fier, Durres, etc were also Greekcolonists,
Fier (Φτερη) was colony of Peloponesians (korintheans)
Also Koryca was at Makedonian Kingdom

So some relations might be vice-versa.
Plz notice also this

Sure we notice, there ai no reason not to cherish such legacy, but at the end the famous rubber will meet the road, it will come to Y-Dna and I am afraid in mainland Greece the Greek ones will be lacking, and Slavic, Vllah, and Arvanite it seems will be the majority.


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[Constantine]

What do you mean by native?



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I used the term somewhat loosely as "anything pre-Slavic."

 

[Constantine]

View attachment 12892

To me Peloponnesus is close to IA Balkans not to Paleo Balkans. But The matches that Albanians are getting in Peloponnesus are related to more recent events, reflecting the migration waves of the collapse of the Roman Empire and Bizantine Empire.



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Greece was invaded in the Iron Age, and this put a dent in the population structure.