Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[oreo_cookie]

	Belarusians	Russians	Polish	Ukrainians	French	Italians	Basque	Andalusians
Deep Mani	0.7 (0.1)	1.6 (0.7)	0.9 (0.4)	1.0 (0.3)	6.4 (3.5)	25.3 (21.7)	0.3 (0.2)	7.6 (5.1)
West Tayetos	4.9 (5.1)	8.6 (6.9)	6.8 (5.4)	6.5 (5.7)	16.4 (12.7)	41.5 (32.5)	0.6 (0.5)	15.2 (11.1)
East Tayetos	5.7 (3.4)	10.9 (4.0)	7.9 (3.7)	8.0 (3.7)	27.7 (4.8)	58.0 (20.7)	2.0 (1.4)	27.0 (4.3)
North Tsakonia	3.9 (1.7)	8.2 (2.1)	5.0 (2.2)	6.0 (2.2)	26.7 (3.5)	51.2 (4.6)	1.5 (1.1)	26.9 (3.5)
South Tsakonia	0.2 (0.0)	0.9 (0.4)	0.4 (0.1)	0.6 (0.2)	4.1 (2.9)	14.2 (11.0)	0.2 (0.1)	5.3 (3.8)

^a The first number for each pair of populations indicates the average shared ancestry for values of K between 4 and 8, while the number in parenthesis indicates the s.d.

This shows what I said before: Deep Mani and South Tsakonia might share less IBD with Italians, but those are still their closest non-Greek relatives.

 

[Blanco]

How can one Hungarian person plot with Finns and one plot more Eastern than the Italian average. I just assume those individuals may be mixed or mislabeled. There's just no way a small ethnic group can be that diverse..
I also would like to see how other Greek regions get placed on that map such as Cappadocian or Islander Greeks.

 

[Yetos]

oh boy

Do ever hear the word Latinocracy?
Venetians brought themshelfs and crusader considering the Monferats
why to bring population from Anatolia which would stronger the Greek feeling that already existed and the anti-Latin = anti-crusade feeling?

Latinocrats (Ducat of Athens) brought Arbanites, from West they did not Bring population from East

remember the 4rth crusade.
for it was never a crusade,

 

[Angela]

Oreo Cookie: Well it clearly shows they are not Slavs at all. I wonder the basis for any claim otherwise. I don't mean to make this about physical appearance but the very first Greek family I ever met, friends of my mother's, are from the Tayetos region and they all are very dark, with clearly (eastern) Mediterranean features. The mother looks identical to photos of my Sicilian great-grandmother. The suffix on their surname is specific to that region

Still with the anecdotal "proof" based on the phenotype of one "supposed" acquaintance. My Zia Iri looks like a red haired Norwegian. So? Is this all you've got left? What happened to the "all mainland Greeks are transposed Slavs" theory?

This Maniot doesn't look very "dark" and "East Med" to me, to use your made up term.

Oreo/Cookie: This shows what I said before: Deep Mani and South Tsakonia might share less IBD with Italians, but those are still their closest non-Greek relatives

.

Your thought processes continue to amaze. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that's correct. So? What huge conclusion are you going to draw from that if it's true? You do realize that the reverse is not true? The Italians, including the Sicilians, are not closest to Deep Mani by any measure, contrary to what you were insisting. You do realize that the chart still shows the most IBD sharing between Italians and East Tayetos, yes? You haven't forgotten that the Sicilians overlap with East Tayetos and not Deep Mani, the East Tayetos which supposedly was the home of a "Slavic" tribe?

@Yetos,
A lot of this is just baseless conjecture, or the history they know is myth written by Nordicists. It's not worth arguing with them.

 

[oreo_cookie]

You haven't forgotten that the Sicilians overlap with East Tayetos and not Deep Mani, the East Tayetos which supposedly was the home of a "Slavic" tribe?.

Well then what that shows is that the people of East Tayetos are not Slavic by any stretch of the imagination, since Sicilians have no Slavic ancestry. The paper itself demonstrates this.

East Tayetos plotting with Sicilians is pretty solid evidence they're not Slavic.

 

[LABERIA]

From what i have read somewhere long time ago, Maniates had converted to Christianity before the Slavic invasion, but after they are mentioned as pagans. Does anyone have any information on this?

 

[Yetos]

Today is 25 of March by agreement a national day
NOW
lets see how classical Europe knows the Greeks
1 Through Literature and History,
2 through religion (new testament)
3) through philosophy and symposiums
4) by maps
5) BY ART

Authentic or copies of Statues, Mosaics, of Classical Greek or Roman era
Imagination of Classical painters

so Fallmerayer expects to see this

and instead he see This

or this

oh boy, what disapointment,
so what he could say or write down?







PS
i know photos have nothing to do with Thread but today is national day,
and I am tired with Black Athena and Fallmerayer theories

 

[Hauteville]

oh boy

Do ever hear the word Latinocracy?
Venetians brought themshelfs and crusader considering the Monferats
why to bring population from Anatolia which would stronger the Greek feeling that already existed and the anti-Latin = anti-crusade feeling?

Latinocrats (Ducat of Athens) brought Arbanites, from West they did not Bring population from East

remember the 4rth crusade.
for it was never a crusade,

Indeed
The latinocrats were indeed a mixture of French, Italians (mostly venetians but also tuscans, sicilians and neapolitans) and Spaniards (aragonese, valencians and catalans).

The Italian page about the Duchy of Neopatria quoted an interesting thing:

La regione, fece parte, fino al 1319, del Ducato di Tessaglia. In quell'anno fu conquistata dall'infante Alfonso Federico d'Aragona appartenente al ramo cadetto della casa d'Aragona di Sicilia, che per l'occasione si avvalse di truppe mercenarie aragonesi e catalane, i celebri Almog?vers (in castigliano Almog?vares). Neopatria accrebbe rapidamente la propria popolazione grazie all'afflusso di immigrati catalani, aragonesi, valenziani e siciliani, mentre gli altri centri restarono compattamente ellenici. Pur continuando il greco ad essere la lingua d'uso della massima parte degli abitanti, fu sostituita, come lingua ufficiale, dal latino, e, come lingua di corte, dal catalano.

It basically said that Neopatria increased the population with the immigration of catalans, aragonese, valencians and sicilians.

 

[Angela]

Well then what that shows is that the people of East Tayetos are not Slavic by any stretch of the imagination, since Sicilians have no Slavic ancestry. The paper itself demonstrates this.

East Tayetos plotting with Sicilians is pretty solid evidence they're not Slavic.

Again, you over-generalize. East Tayetos does have some "Slavic" ancestry, just not at the levels you expected, just as Sicilians have "some" Norman ancestry, and some "Lombard" ancestry, as in Northern Italian ancestry, and some Italic ancestry too.

Plus, "Slavic" is a language. What these tests are picking up is broadly north eastern European ancestry. The Langobardi came from the northeast too. So did populations who became part of the "Indo-European" migrations.

 

[Angela]

NOW
lets see how classical Europe knows the Greeks
1 Through Literature and History,
2 through religion (new testament)
3) through philosophy and symposiums
4) by maps
5) BY ART

Authentic or copies of Statues, Mosaics, of Classical Greek or Roman era
Imagination of Classical painters

so Fallmerayer expects to see this

and instead he see This

or this

oh boy, what disapointment,
so what he could say or write down?





PS
i know photos have nothing to do with Thread but today is national day,
and I am tired with Black Athena and Fallmerayer theories


[/QUOTE] Yetos, I'm going to have to remove most of this post. It's off-topic. I'm tired too, but the rules are for everyone. Don't make me give you an infraction.

 

[Angela]

If all of the paint hadn't been rubbed off these statues, these theories would have had no legs at all, because you would have seen the variety in these people.

This statue was digitally altered to colorize it in accordance with paint residue found on it.

They also should have looked at the features of these statues more carefully.

Does she look northeast European to anyone?

Or him?

Or him?

It's like all those hundreds of thousands of words that were expended discussing the Classical Greek aesthetic based on the mistaken belief their temples were as white as snow, when they actually looked like this:

Historians, including art historians, were so wrong about so much.

 

[spartan owl]

From what i have read somewhere long time ago, Maniates had converted to Christianity before the Slavic invasion, but after they are mentioned as pagans. Does anyone have any information on this?

maniots were pagan long before and long after the slavic invasion
they continued to worship zeus until 9th century but the process of conversion continued 12th to 13th century
There is a description of Mani and its inhabitants in Constantine VII's De Administrando Imperio:^[19]

 

[spartan owl]

The introduction of Christianity came late in the Mani: the first Greek temples began to be converted into Christian churches during the 11th century A.D. A Byzantine Greek monk called Nikon "the Metanoite" (Greek: Νίκων ὁ Μετανοείτε) was commissioned by the Church in the 9th century to spread Christianity to areas such as Mani and Tsakonia, which had remained Pagan. Mavromichalis
St. Nikon was sent to the Mani in the latter half of the 9th century to preach Christianity to the Maniots. Although the Maniots began to convert to Christianity in the 10th century due to Nikon's preaching, it took more than 200 years, i.e. until the 12th and 13th centuries, to eliminate most of the pagan Greek religion and traditions and for the Maniots to fully accept Christianity

 

[spartan owl]

constantine VII de administrando impero
Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi, who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation.

 

[spartan owl]

Well it clearly shows they are not Slavs at all. I wonder the basis for any claim otherwise. I don't mean to make this about physical appearance but the very first Greek family I ever met, friends of my mother's, are from the Tayetos region and they all are very dark, with clearly (eastern) Mediterranean features. The mother looks identical to photos of my Sicilian great-grandmother. The suffix on their surname is specific to that region.

lakonians are both dark and fair let see our parlamentaries politicians

 

[oreo_cookie]

Again, you over-generalize. East Tayetos does have some "Slavic" ancestry, just not at the levels you expected, just as Sicilians have "some" Norman ancestry, and some "Lombard" ancestry, as in Northern Italian ancestry, and some Italic ancestry too.

Aren't there places in Sicily where neither Norman nor Lombard ancestry would be significant? I am thinking of inland Caltanissetta, as well as the northeast coastal areas.

 

[Angela]

lakonians are both dark and fair let see our parlamentaries politicians
View attachment 8576View attachment 8577View attachment 8578

Some people aren't interested in reality; they're pushing an agenda.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, I'm going to have to remove most of this post. It's off-topic. I'm tired too, but the rules are for everyone. Don't make me give you an infraction.

Angela

Ok, do your job,

At least someone (you) read it.

 

[Angela]

Aren't there places in Sicily where neither Norman nor Lombard ancestry would be significant? I am thinking of inland Caltanissetta, as well as the northeast coastal areas.

Still relying on some supposed sample of someone from Caltanisetta? Who knows where that person's great-grandparents had their origin, or how representative that person is of everyone in their area. Anyone can claim any ancestry they choose on some internet site, if they even know it precisely. That isn't a scientific paper. Plus, haven't we learned how deceptive 23andme and gedmatch results can be?

Are you aware that in the last 1500 years Sicilians have been moving around their island and intermarrying to some degree? I don't know of any area in Sicily that is as isolated as the Deep Mani appears to be. Caltanisetta, to the best of my knowledge, is set in rolling hills. It borders areas with different migration histories. Its history is varied, like much of Sicily. Italics, a fort built by Carthaginians, Romans, Moors, then, "The settlement was captured by the Normans in 1086." We then have the Hohenstaufens, Anjou, and a Spanish rule, the longest by far: In 1406 Caltanissetta became a fief of the noble Spanish family Moncada,^[2] which already owned the estate of Paternò, and subsequently decayed deeply. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltanissetta#cite_note-The_Regions_of_Italy-2

If a lot of importance is going to be given to all these various periods of foreign rule, maybe their particular mix of ancestry should be seen as the product of admixture with these Spaniards as well. I believe they were connected to Valencia, but my recollection may be faulty.

As for the northeast, it is one of the only areas in Sicily where the Moors basically did not enter. Throughout Moorish rule this area was allowed to govern itself, kept its Greek Christian faith, continued to speak Greek, etc. All that was demanded was some tribute. So, if someone were going to look for the most Greek like or most autochthonous Sicilians, I think this would be a good place to test. Since they're probably very similar to the Calabrians of Reggio Calabria, who kept Griko alive for a long time, and where you can still find Griko speakers today, I think that might be a fertile area for testing as well.

See: "The History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard Chiaretti.

I wouldn't test in Messina, however, or draw any vast conclusions based on the dna of the people there about these kinds of details, as it was almost completely destroyed by an earthquake in the early 20th century (only the latest of these natural disasters) and repopulated by people from other areas of Sicily. I don't think anyone would be able at this point to pin down the precise origins of all these people.

Can we now leave your obsession with Sicilians and get back to the people of the Peloponnesus?

 

[Hauteville]

The history of Caltanissetta's origins in english wiki are wrong by the way. The local historian Luigi Santagati thinks it was an hellenized Sicanian city called Nissa.

oh boy

Do ever hear the word Latinocracy?
Venetians brought themshelfs and crusader considering the Monferats
why to bring population from Anatolia which would stronger the Greek feeling that already existed and the anti-Latin = anti-crusade feeling?

Latinocrats (Ducat of Athens) brought Arbanites, from West they did not Bring population from East

remember the 4rth crusade.
for it was never a crusade,

The latinocracy also introduced many Italians to Greece, as well as Spaniards and French. The Ducato of Neopatria (as well as the one of Atene) were part of kingdom of Sicily (the insular part) with the Aragonese-Swabian dinasty all over the 1300 and look at this point:

"Neopatria accrebbe rapidamente la propria popolazione grazie all'afflusso di immigrati catalani, aragonesi, valenziani e siciliani"

This point basically said that Neopatria's population increased by the immigration of Spaniards (Aragonese, Catalans and Valencians) and Italians from Sicily (later also Tuscans).

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducato_di_Neopatria