Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

To be honest, we didn't really have to wait for this study to know that Slavic admixture in the Peloponnese is small. The relatively low frequency of YDNA HGs I2 and R1a compared to the Balkan region, has always been a good indicator.
 
To be honest, we didn't really have to wait for this study to know that Slavic admixture in the Peloponnese is small. The relatively low frequency of YDNA HGs I2 and R1a compared to the Balkan region, has always been a good indicator.

Wasn't I2 one of the oldest Y-dna in Greece?
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And y-dna or mtdna difference between Morea Peninsula and other part of Greece?
 
To be honest, we didn't really have to wait for this study to know that Slavic admixture in the Peloponnese is small. The relatively low frequency of YDNA HGs I2 and R1a compared to the Balkan region, has always been a good indicator.

Well, as I'm sure you know, it depends which clades we're talking about, but the general concept is correct. The correlation between the percentages of the proto-slav yDna lineages in the Peloponnese and now the autosomal percentages is striking. They reinforce the conclusion that there is at most from perhaps under 1% to a maximum of 14% "proto-Slavic" ancestry in the Peloponnese.

Whatever people may want to believe, based on such lineages the percentage in the more northern Balkan countries is going to be much higher than 10%, but not enough to make them Poles or Ukrainians. Within Greece, as has been pointed out, the levels in Thessaly are higher than in the Peloponnesus. I don't know about Central Greece. Maybe they'd be closer to the very northern part of the Peloponnesus?
 
Wasn't I2 one of the oldest Y-dna in Greece?
Perhaps, but dinaric I2 wasn't carried much around to the early colonies (if at all), which might indicate, that it wasn't there until later times.
 
I was referring to this sentence in the abstract, re-quoting your post, but not saying you "said" it: "Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either."

14.4% "Slavic" ancestry is not insignificant as an upper range. Obviously if it's an outlier, it's not representative, I haven't had a chance to read the paper.
 
There's actually enough presence of I2 in Puglia but I'm not sure if its I2-Din so that we can link it to the Magna Graecia colonies or the earlier movement of the Messapi from Illyria/Epirus. Maybe someone with data can check that?

An interesting fact or coincidence is the existence of the Daco-Thracian tribe of the Apuli, which could also be a possible explanation of the presence of I2a in Puglia/Apulia.

It's surprising that Puglia has higher numbers than Molise where medieval Croatian settlements are found, although their numbers could be too small to have any effect at all.
 
There's actually enough presence of I2 in Puglia but I'm not sure if its I2-Din so that we can link it to the Magna Graecia colonies or the earlier movement of the Messapi from Illyria/Epirus. Maybe someone with data can check that?

An interesting fact or coincidence is the existence of the Daco-Thracian tribe of the Apuli, which could also be a possible explanation of the presence of I2a in Puglia/Apulia.

It's surprising that Puglia has higher numbers than Molise where medieval Croatian settlements are found, although their numbers could be too small to have any effect at all.
Boattini 2013 counted two out of 39 in Lecce, which makes about 5%. Other P37.2 he found in Italy were one (=4%) in Matera (Basilicata) and one (=2.8%) in Benevento (north. Campania). That's all. There is none out of 141 in his Sicilian sample, no Calabrian. Di Gaetano 2009 didn't find non-I1 or non-M26 ones in his samples around Greek settlements in Sicily as well (out of 114-132). So the south Italian presence is likely non-greek.
 
Boattini 2013 counted two out of 39 in Lecce, which makes about 5%. Other P37.2 he found in Italy were one (=4%) in Matera (Basilicata) and one (=2.8%) in Benevento (north. Campania). That's all. There is none out of 141 in his Sicilian sample, no Calabrian. Di Gaetano 2009 didn't find non-I1 or non-M26 ones in his samples around Greek settlements in Sicily as well (out of 114-132). So the south Italian presence is likely non-greek.

Greek of what era?

If anything, the lack of it in Puglia and other areas in southern Italy would tend to support the idea that it is a late arrival in Greece and therefore indeed proto-Slavic.
 
I was referring to this sentence in the abstract, re-quoting your post, but not saying you "said" it: "Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either."

14.4% "Slavic" ancestry is not insignificant as an upper range. Obviously if it's an outlier, it's not representative, I haven't had a chance to read the paper.

So you said in your prior post.

Ed. Sorry, the majority of my response didn't post.

I don't think that was a very felicitous choice of words by these authors. What their various charts and analyses show is levels of "shared" ancestry between modern Slavic populations and modern Peloponnesian populations, as they make clear in other parts of the paper, which is different than a measure of actual gene flow from these areas into the Peloponnesus during a specific point in time.
 
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I belong to I2 M423 and my paternal side is from a former Greek colony of Sicily. We only need aDNA from end of Bronze Age or first Iron Age from Greece.
 
So basically its presence in Apulia is confirmed and considering that out of a population of 5 million in Sicily they tested only 141 it will be impossible to determine if its present at all or not.

Then we should also consider that I2-Din its also quite low in Greece and its numbers were definitely increased by the Vlachs, Albanians, and South Slavs who brought this more Northern Paleolithic haplogroup later on. So even a presence of 1-2% in the former Sicilian colonies could be used as a possible Greek influence during the colonization era.
 
Greek of what era?
Di Gaetano talked about 'classical' Greeks.
If anything, the lack of it in Puglia and other areas in southern Italy would tend to support the idea that it is a late arrival in Greece and therefore indeed proto-Slavic.
As I suggested. Neither Dorian, nor Attic-Ionian nor Mykenian colonies show clearly dinaric I2, only Aeolians may eventually have had them, at least if we trust the old data samples from Lesvos. But in the end - we need much more data for support of these assumptions.
 
Wasn't I2 one of the oldest Y-dna in Greece?
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And y-dna or mtdna difference between Morea Peninsula and other part of Greece?

I don't know how accurate this map is and whether it is based on actual ancient DNA samples. Regardless, even if I2 is indeed the oldest hg found in Greece, it would predate the Slavic "invasion" which took place c.600 AD shortly after the great migrations.
 
I don't know how accurate this map is and whether it is based on actual ancient DNA samples. Regardless, even if I2 is indeed the oldest hg found in Greece, it would predate the Slavic "invasion" which took place c.600 AD shortly after the great migrations.

It isn't based on ancient dna. In addition, there are different clades of I2. This map is based on all of I2. It depends on the clade. The ones associated with the "Slavs" are different than the ones associated with the early farmers. We have to keep the distinction in mind.

This is from our own forum:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

This is some analysis from anthrogenica:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...-define-and-split-the-I2a-Dinaric-clade/page2
 
Di Gaetano is an outdated study (2008), Sarno et al is much more recent and with new conclusions.
 
I don't know how accurate this map is and whether it is based on actual ancient DNA samples. Regardless, even if I2 is indeed the oldest hg found in Greece, it would predate the Slavic "invasion" which took place c.600 AD shortly after the great migrations.
The I2a on that map into west Europe must be the I M26, now almost only related to Sardinia.
 
I2a M423 was more present among Arbereshe colonies of Calabria and Sicily in the study of Tofanelli.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31370-Y-DNA-of-Arbereshe-vs-Albanians-vs-Southern-Italians

Thanks, Hauteville.

We obviously need ancient dna and more and more representative modern dna which has been categorized at a deeper level, but I think that logically speaking, if some yDna I2 clades migrated into Greece in the Middle Ages with Slavic admixed peoples (genetically speaking), and there was no mass migration into southern Italy from Greece during or after that time, why would we expect those clades in southern Italy?

The Arbereshe did arrive after that time, so it's not surprising to me that you find it in Arbereshe populations in southern Italy. From them it may have made its way into the larger community.
 
I think I created my account in 2010 and never bothered with ethnicity. Perhaps it could have been to avoid my fellow neighbours disregarding my opinion coz of my ethnicity but truth is I don't even remember what was on my mind in 2010 nor do I care about putting my ethnicity.
And, based on that post which still does not your ethnicity, you will not show your ethnicity. That being so, be prepared to be challenged as being a false flag commenter. To be clear, imo ethnicity makes little difference if the posts are based on science and verifiable and generally accepted 'facts' - so that one is seeking the truth, rather than advocating a position that is fundamentally an opinion. But ethnicity is pertinent if rash and unsupported comments are posted. Not everyone is versed on the flame wars that seem to be fun for some advocates. And when opinions are masked as facts, pealing back the facade to reveal a unhelpful* motive saves a lot of time. */ unhelpful to finding the truth.
 
the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that
 

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