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Thread: I kindly ask for an explanation by the moderators of this forum.

  1. #1
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    Country: Albania

    I kindly ask for an explanation by the moderators of this forum.

    I wanted to ask a question to the moderators of this forum. I do not know if this is the right place to ask this question. The moderators are free to move this thread to another subforum.
    Yesterday, without warning, i had two infractions in row in six minutes, by one of the moderators, Angela. I do not know if i have the permission to publish the reasons for these penalties against me. In other forums there is a separated thread where the mods publish the reasons. However, in good faith, I continue with the publication of the email arrived yesterday in my address.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Dear LABERIA,

    You have received an infraction at Eupedia Forum.

    Reason: Disruptive/provocative behaviour
    You've received an infraction for making a disruptive, provocative post.

    You are not going to turn this thread into the setting for another Balkan War.

    This infraction is worth 2 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

    Original Post:
    "The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out of Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple – indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent… for not even a drop of noble and undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.
    Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer

    I think that this quote from Fallmerayer can be very helpful for this discussion here.
    All the best,
    Eupedia Forum
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Dear LABERIA,

    You have received an infraction at Eupedia Forum.

    Reason: Disruptive/provocative behaviour
    You're on two infractions. Want to go for more?

    The topic of this thread is not Albanians.

    This infraction is worth 2 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

    Original Post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Interesting study, but I honestly don't see the point of it. Even the "Slavs" that invaded those lands were barely Slavs, just like today's Balkan Slavs, especially the southernmost ones.

    People need to realise that the Slavs and Goths only started as invading nomads that were later joined by hundreds of tribes of different ethnicity and languages who had a common goal, raid and find a better place to settle and live. The Goths themselves comprised of thousands of Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, and even Romans and Greeks who saw Rome as a bigger threat to their individual pockets than the invading barbarian pillagers. Same happened with Huns, meaning we're taking these political entities and trying to analyse the genetic influence they had on certain regions.

    Having said that, Peloponnesus has been inhabited for millenias by millions of people and a bunch of highly mixed northern nomadic tribes are not going to affect its genetic makeup at all to the point that even that 0.02% seems a lot. Probably what they're including as Slavic is the admixture brought by Vlachs from the Northern Balkans as they're high in I-Din just like the South Slavic speakers. Even if Slavs did indeed settle in high numbers in there, their percentage would have been decreased by the high number of Arvanite settlers with almost identical genetic makeup as the local Greeks. And some food for thought, many Albanian/Arvanite settlements in Greece were the result of them being hired as mercenaries by the Serbian Kingdom, meaning even their armies were not made up of only "pure Serbs", but a mix of every ethnic group being conquered or simply hired as mercenaries.

    If they really want to prove the Greekness of the Peloponnesians, why don't they just study the biggest linguistic minority in the region, the Arvanites. And it's surprising how out of every nationality used for comparison they forget the Albanians. Could it be that they will overlap so much with the Albanians that it will ruin their Greekness?

    And that crap about connecting the similarities between the South Italians to the Greek colonization is another far fetched theory when the entire Southern Europe share Pre-Indo-European links with each other and we're talking about real massive population movements expanding continuously, not some bunch of Spartan hoplites founding cities on the coast of South Italy and immediately changing the percentage of haplogroup E-V13 and J2a.

    On the other hand, did they include a haplogroup breakdown for Tsakonians and Maniots specifically as I did not come across any?
    I want to tell something about the discussion here and second, to give an answer to your question. I will quote from Greek Helsinki Report, the full report is here:
    History of the community and the language
    The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.
    Now, back to your question:
    Current situation of the community and the language

    One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats (Stohos, 20/7/1994 and in previous issues, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked). Such hostile environment makes even the scholars’ work look suspicious: for example, Arvanites have reacted with incredulity and suspicion to scholars’ assertions that their language can be written (Tsitsipis, 1983:296-7; Trudgill, 1983:129; Williams, 1992:88). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked by some community members (Williams, 1992:88) as well as in state-sponsored publications (Lazarou et al., 1993:191-193).
    Likewise, Arvanitika has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state. On the contrary, its use has been strongly discouraged at schools (and in the army) through physical punishment, humiliation, or, in recent years, simple incitation of the Arvanitika users (Williams, 1992:86; Trudgill, 1983:130-1). Such attitudes have led many Arvanite (as well as Vlach, and Macedonian) parents to discourage their children from learning their mother tongue so as to avoid similar discrimination and suffering (Trudgill, 1983:130).

    by the Commission of the European Community

    A group of researchers of the European Community visited Greece from the 4th to the 10th of October 1987 to study the existence of the Albanian element and the preservation of its ethnicity and language.
    The trip was organized by the “European Bureau” to study the lesser-used languages, observed by the Commission of the European Community.

    Composition of the Group:

    Antonio Belushi Italy
    Ricardo Alvares Spain
    E. Angel France
    Kolom Anget Spain
    Havier Boski Spain
    Onom Falkona Holland
    Volfgang Jeniges Belgium
    Robert Marti France
    Stefan Moal France
    Kol O’Cinseala Ireland
    Joseph San Sokasao Spain

    Object of the trip:
    Research in 300 Albanian communities in Greece.


    1. To help European representatives on their visit to get in touch with the Albanian people in Greece, who are currently speaking Albanian, which is not taught in Greek schools.
    2. To assess the reaction of various parties and other institutions to the issue of protection of linguistic minorities existing in Greece, which are not recognized at present even below a minimum criterion as is the case with the Albanians, etc.

    Views of the main parties:

    The “New Democracy” Party:
    We talked with Michael Papakonstantinu, Efstakios Paguhos, Nikola Martis, Joanis Vulfefis and Kaeti Papannastasion. Here are some of their answers:
    “There is no problem of Albanian language in Greece. If we put linguistic problems on the table, we would create very great problems for the Greek state. If the Albanian language is spoken, it is spoken only in families. No opinion can be fully expressed on this issue. There has never been room for the Albanians in our problems. Your mission is very delicate. Do not complicate things. Watch out! Minority issues will lead to war in Europe. We can in no way help at these moments. Likewise, we do not want to give the impression of Albanian presence in Greece. This problem does not exist for us.”

    The “PASOK” Party:
    Questions were addressed to Dr. Jorgos Sklavunas and Manolis Azimakis. Their answers:
    “We do not deem it necessary for the Albanian and other minorities to learn their mother tongues because the language they speak is not a language. There are no Albanian territories in Greece. There are only Greek territories where Albanian may also be spoken. He who does not speak our language does not belong to our race and our country.”

    The Ministry of Culture:
    Having listened to the questions, Doc. Athina Sipirianti said:
    “To solve a problem, you have always to set up a commission. We do not have the possibility of dealing with the problem you are raising. Your experience will be necessary for what we shall do in the future. Your visit is a great stimulus to us.”

    The Pedagogical Department:
    Dr. Trinnidafilotis’ answer was very cold:
    “There is no teaching of Albanian. What you are saying is a political rather than a cultural problem. I have nothing else to add.”

    The Commission of the Independent Magazine Anti:
    “Borders between states are not fair. This interest in minorities in Greece can hide interests of domination by other states. Linguistic minorities, namely, the Albanian minority, have no right whatsoever. In Greece, there are only Greeks.”
    All the best,
    Eupedia Forum
    I don't agree with this infractions. Can someone from the mods explain me the reasons?
    If my attitude is in conformity with the rules of the forum, i kindly ask that these penalties are removed.

    All the best,

  2. #2
    Regular Member firetown's Avatar
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    Infractions are not serious. Only warnings where mods mention they don't like what you are doing. I suggest taking a deep breath and thinking about what you really want in life. And how this forum can help get you there. Start a new thread if you have enough to make it worth the members' while. Find a better discussion to add your thoughts related to it. But by all means, if you are too emotional, you will be banned here. And even if your intentions were good. So think, breathe and know this is the number 1 forum worldwide for genetics. Don't blow is before your message gets out, whatever it might be.

  3. #3
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Give Greeks a break. ;)
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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