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Thread: Highest "Baltic" scores in Eurogenes K13 / K15

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravnur View Post
    According to the results of mine and M434508 and A146377 from the above posts there is no direct conformity. All of us have for about 50% or a bit less of WHG and 20-25% of EHG by MDLP K11. So in total it's more than "Baltic" in Eurogenes K13 and at the same time "Baltic" is not only WHG or EHG separately. So I guess "Baltic" is something like WHG + EHG mix and some part of WHG is also presented in "North_Atlantic".
    I don't think that K15 Baltic=EHG, but I think the Baltic area is most EHG admixed area from Europe and has a specific "Baltic" component for this reason. Or is there another explanation for existence of this specificity? Let's dicuss.
    Globe13 D-stat
    D(North_Euro,Syky;Mediterranean,Paleo_African) Z=-5,04
    D(Mediterranean,Syky;North_Euro,Paleo_African) Z=-12,02
    D(North_Euro,Syky;Siberian,Paleo_African) Z=3,76
    D(North_Euro,Syky;East_Asian,Paleo_African) Z=2,89
    D(North_Euro,Syky;Arctic,Paleo_African) Z=4,73
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syky View Post
    Or is there another explanation for existence of this specificity? Let's dicuss.
    It could be also ethnic-specific genetic drift that accumulated over time, due to reproductive isolation etc. And than such a drifted population rapidly expanded (for example Slavic expansions from a small "Urheimat").

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It could be also ethnic-specific genetic drift that accumulated over time, due to reproductive isolation etc. And than such a drifted population rapidly expanded (for example Slavic expansions from a small "Urheimat").
    Ok, I don't say no, but it doesn't explain the excess of ANE admixture and shift towards EHG or Latvian_MN in modern Balts. I think this specific admixture is the reason. They clearly deviate from other Northern Europeans to something ANE and WHG rich on PCA.

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    Interesting, they also deviate quite much from Europe_LNBA in Lazaridis 2016 if you compare modern and ancient PCA. In this case towards something between EHG and SHG.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Syky View Post
    I don't think that K15 Baltic=EHG, but I think the Baltic area is most EHG admixed area from Europe and has a specific "Baltic" component for this reason. Or is there another explanation for existence of this specificity? Let's dicuss.
    I don't think that there is an exact border between WHG and EHG. It is mostly an artificial division based on a few aDNA samples and the reality looks like a gradient. By the way, the "pure" WHGs: F999915 (La Braña-Arintero, Mesolithic Spain, 5960-5750 BC) has 48.33 of "Baltic" in Eurogenes K13 and F999918 (Loschbour, Luxembourg, 6210-5990 BC) has 51.09. So MDLP K11 is the best tool for now to see WHG/EHG proportion and "Baltic" in Eurogenes K13 obviously doesn't fit that need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravnur View Post
    I don't think that there is an exact border between WHG and EHG. It is mostly an artificial division based on a few aDNA samples and the reality looks like a gradient. By the way, the "pure" WHGs: F999915 (La Braña-Arintero, Mesolithic Spain, 5960-5750 BC) has 48.33 of "Baltic" in Eurogenes K13 and F999918 (Loschbour, Luxembourg, 6210-5990 BC) has 51.09. So MDLP K11 is the best tool for now to see WHG/EHG proportion and "Baltic" in Eurogenes K13 obviously doesn't fit that need.
    I am not talking about K13 Baltic, this is obviously a different component. I am talking about K15 Baltic. And I repeat I don't think it is only a measurement of EHG admixture. Only thing I want to suggest for discussion is that I think this component is rich in ANE-WHG continuum, because Baltic populations are special in their deviation from Europe_LNBA or Steppe_MLBA to EHG or Latvia_MN or something like that. WHGs can have this "Baltic", because they were also ancestral to this component. You are right with the artificial division in mesolithic HGs.
    So what I want to say is: if you have higher K15 Baltic, you are in my opinion more "EHG-like" admixed. You have more EHG than came from Yamna through Corded Ware.
    :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syky View Post
    I am not talking about K13 Baltic, this is obviously a different component. I am talking about K15 Baltic. And I repeat I don't think it is only a measurement of EHG admixture. Only thing I want to suggest for discussion is that I think this component is rich in ANE-WHG continuum, because Baltic populations are special in their deviation from Europe_LNBA or Steppe_MLBA to EHG or Latvia_MN or something like that. WHGs can have this "Baltic", because they were also ancestral to this component. You are right with the artificial division in mesolithic HGs.
    So what I want to say is: if you have higher K15 Baltic, you are in my opinion more "EHG-like" admixed. You have more EHG than came from Yamna through Corded Ware.
    :)
    I don't know :) I live in 100km from the Lithuanian border and have the same percentage of "Baltic" in K15 as the Loschbour mesolithic sample has, which is obviously WHG and all modern calculators use it as a part of WHG pattern.
    I guess that the best candidate for the marker you are talking about in K15 is "Eastern_Euro". As far as I know it is based on the Kargopol Russians, who actually became Slavs not so long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravnur View Post
    I don't know :) I live in 100km from the Lithuanian border and have the same percentage of "Baltic" in K15 as the Loschbour mesolithic sample has, which is obviously WHG and all modern calculators use it as a part of WHG pattern.
    I guess that the best candidate for the marker you are talking about in K15 is "Eastern_Euro". As far as I know it is based on the Kargopol Russians, who actually became Slavs not so long ago.
    I also don't know :) Eastern Euro probably contains some Siberian admixture as it peaks in Mari and Chuvash, but it don't have to. It is a strong component in K15 admixture of early steppe cultures. I still think that Baltic is related to some extra EHG-like admixture, but it is probably also in Eastern Euro, too.
    WHGs were ancestral to most of European components, so I don't know if it says something.

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    There is a separate Siberian admixture on K15, so I don't think that Eastern_Euro contains Siberian.

    Mari people score both Siberian and Eastern_Euro - so Eastern_Euro represents the Non-Siberian part of their ancestry, while the Siberian part is represented by Siberian component.

    I have GEDmatch kits of around 300 modern ethnic Russians, and all of them score some Siberian on K13 (and on K15 most probably as well, though I didn't check all of them on K15 yet), but Early Slavic samples do not score any Siberian. So Siberian admixture in modern Russians is of Non-Slavic origin.

    Interestingly, these Early Slavic samples (Markowice7, Niemcza18, RISE568) also don't score any East_Med on K15. Some of modern Poles don't score East_Med as well (for example father of mlukas doesn't get any East_Med on K15), but the majority do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syky View Post
    I also don't know :) Eastern Euro probably contains some Siberian admixture as it peaks in Mari and Chuvash, but it don't have to. It is a strong component in K15 admixture of early steppe cultures. I still think that Baltic is related to some extra EHG-like admixture, but it is probably also in Eastern Euro, too.
    WHGs were ancestral to most of European components, so I don't know if it says something.
    Of course they can't be pure "something" as everything in Eurasia and they have some Siberian admixture, just because they live close to it. But at the same time, I think people from Volga-Ural and Northern Dvina areas are the best candidates to be EHG carriers (at least by percentage). Otherwise, as I said before, we put ourselves in an endless recursion, whereas all samples, like Loschbour, La Brana and probably Motala, which intended to be a reference of pure WHG have as much (or just a bit less) EHG as the most EHG admixed region in Europe (Baltic). So it's definitely not Baltic :) Or I understand the basic logic somehow wrong and pervertedly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There is a separate Siberian admixture on K15, so I don't think that Eastern_Euro contains Siberian.

    Mari people score both Siberian and Eastern_Euro - so Eastern_Euro represents the Non-Siberian part of their ancestry, while the Siberian part is represented by Siberian component.

    I have GEDmatch kits of around 300 modern ethnic Russians, and all of them score some Siberian on K13 (and on K15 most probably as well, though I didn't check all of them on K15 yet), but Early Slavic samples do not score any Siberian. So Siberian admixture in modern Russians is of Non-Slavic origin.

    Interestingly, these Early Slavic samples (Markowice7, Niemcza18, RISE568) also don't score any East_Med on K15. Some of modern Poles don't score East_Med as well (for example father of mlukas doesn't get any East_Med on K15), but the majority do.
    Markowice7, scores Siberian and American on HarappaWorld. Smaller admixtures might be missing on many of these samples and admixture proportions are out of whack due to their low quality.
    It is after migration of central asian tribes into Europe and after Siberian tribes invasion of Finland and Balts. These two being most likely source of Siberian admixture also in Slavs.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Markowice7, scores Siberian and American on HarappaWorld. Smaller admixtures might be missing on many of these samples and admixture proportions are out of whack due to their low quality.
    It is after migration of central asian tribes into Europe and after Siberian tribes invasion of Finland and Balts. These two being most likely source of Siberian admixture also in Slavs.
    WTF are you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Markowice7, scores Siberian and American on HarappaWorld. Smaller admixtures might be missing on many of these samples and admixture proportions are out of whack due to their low quality.
    It is after migration of central asian tribes into Europe and after Siberian tribes invasion of Finland and Balts. These two being most likely source of Siberian admixture also in Slavs.
    This makes great sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravnur View Post
    I don't think that there is an exact border between WHG and EHG. It is mostly an artificial division based on a few aDNA samples and the reality looks like a gradient. By the way, the "pure" WHGs: F999915 (La Braña-Arintero, Mesolithic Spain, 5960-5750 BC) has 48.33 of "Baltic" in Eurogenes K13 and F999918 (Loschbour, Luxembourg, 6210-5990 BC) has 51.09. So MDLP K11 is the best tool for now to see WHG/EHG proportion and "Baltic" in Eurogenes K13 obviously doesn't fit that need.
    Hey, Ravnur I notice you belong to mtDNA haplogroup U5b1e1. There's a little known common East European-specfic form of U5b1e1. You see I run an mtDNA blog, have a collection of 20,000 mtDNA samples from Europe. I know a lot about European mtDNA. I get as many mtDNA samples as I can get. And I'm guessing the test you did on your mtDNA was really high coverage which makes your sample even more valuable. Can email your mtDNA raw data to [email protected].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There is a separate Siberian admixture on K15, so I don't think that Eastern_Euro contains Siberian.

    Mari people score both Siberian and Eastern_Euro - so Eastern_Euro represents the Non-Siberian part of their ancestry, while the Siberian part is represented by Siberian component.

    I have GEDmatch kits of around 300 modern ethnic Russians, and all of them score some Siberian on K13 (and on K15 most probably as well, though I didn't check all of them on K15 yet), but Early Slavic samples do not score any Siberian. So Siberian admixture in modern Russians is of Non-Slavic origin.

    Interestingly, these Early Slavic samples (Markowice7, Niemcza18, RISE568) also don't score any East_Med on K15. Some of modern Poles don't score East_Med as well (for example father of mlukas doesn't get any East_Med on K15), but the majority do.
    In Eurogenes Basal-rich K7, Mari peoples are 21-25% East Eurasian. In K15 they are 24% Siberian, which is not pure East Eurasian component, so I think some East Eurasian can be in Eastern Euro. But it's a pure guess, maybe you are right that it is the West Eurasian part of their ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravnur View Post
    Of course they can't be pure "something" as everything in Eurasia and they have some Siberian admixture, just because they live close to it. But at the same time, I think people from Volga-Ural and Northern Dvina areas are the best candidates to be EHG carriers (at least by percentage). Otherwise, as I said before, we put ourselves in an endless recursion, whereas all samples, like Loschbour, La Brana and probably Motala, which intended to be a reference of pure WHG have as much (or just a bit less) EHG as the most EHG admixed region in Europe (Baltic). So it's definitely not Baltic :) Or I understand the basic logic somehow wrong and pervertedly.
    The Eastern Euro-rich peoples (Mordvins, Finns) are also close to EHG on PCA, maybe even closer than Baltics. But in admixture (and some formal stats, for example here - extended data fig.7) they show some tendency to East Eurasian, so they move that way on PCA, whereas Baltics are West Eurasian only. So I think Baltic is West Eurasian and EHG-like rich. The Corded peoples probably moved to the region and mixed with local Latvia_MN population, which was on EHG-WHG line unlike other neolithic Europeans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    LeBrok gave me an infraction but still no clarification on his claim of Siberian tribes invading Finland and Baltics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    LeBrok gave me an infraction but still no clarification on his claim of Siberian tribes invading Finland and Baltics.
    Probably Uralic speakers...?

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    Red is EHG and orange is Steppe? But Steppe was largely EHG as well, so how did they differentiate them? I guess that in Metal Age samples, red shows the excess of EHG admixture over that Steppe-derived EHG:


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    I think Baltic reflects some steppe + extra EHG or Latvia_MN, in other words non-steppe EHG. This is why separate eastern component exists in North European cluster - Northwesterners don't have this "Baltic" extra EHG-like admixture or is much weaker in them. This is also why Baltics share most alleles with MA1 from West Eurasians - they are largely of steppe origin as other North Europeans, but their neolithic admixture is less ENF or Basal Eurasian, but more EHG or maybe something closer to WHG than pure EHG.

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    I'm 60.51% Baltic.

    What prize do I get?

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    Attachment 10438Attachment 10440What say you on this? American, 56.4% British and Irish, 15.8 Broadly Northwest European 23andMe uploaded.

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    Is 19.80% Baltic is K13 high for a Greek like me?


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 21.56
    2 Atlantic 15.15
    3 West_Asian 15.08
    4 West_Med 13.59
    5 Baltic 12.87
    6 North_Sea 10.94
    7 Eastern_Euro 8.04
    8 Red_Sea 1.99

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    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Greece



    Correction (the above was by K15 admixture):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 26.13
    2 Baltic 19.8
    3 North_Atlantic 19.5
    4 West_Med 17.71
    5 West_Asian 13.98
    6 Oceanian 1.31
    7 Red_Sea 1.27
    8 Sub-Saharan 0.25
    9 Amerindian 0.06

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Greek_Thessaly 5.45
    2 Bulgarian 7.08
    3 Romanian 9.63
    4 Central_Greek 10.44
    5 Italian_Abruzzo 11.13
    6 East_Sicilian 12.02
    7 West_Sicilian 12.92
    8 Ashkenazi 13.21
    9 Tuscan 13.43
    10 Serbian 13.81
    11 South_Italian 14.78
    12 North_Italian 16.9
    13 Moldavian 19.23
    14 Italian_Jewish 20
    15 Sephardic_Jewish 20.24
    16 Algerian_Jewish 20.25
    17 Hungarian 21.84
    18 Croatian 22.24
    19 Tunisian_Jewish 23.61
    20 Libyan_Jewish 24.14

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