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Thread: Ancient Egyptian dna-Kraus et al

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    No the closest matches are ancient samples from Spain (c.3500 BC), Switzerland (c.2900 BC), and Sardinia (c.2300 BC) which also have U5b2b5. The Phoenician mentioned in the paper was from Carthage; he had the related European mtDNA lineage U5b2c1.
    Like I said, I was referring to demographics closer to the supposed time of Giza's construction, which was way before Carthage existed.

    Biological Sexing of a 4000-Year-Old Egyptian Mummy Head to Assess the Potential of Nuclear DNA Recovery from the Most Damaged and Limited Forensic Specimens. 2018 The haplotype (deposited in GenBank under accession number MG736653) belongs to mitochondrial DNA lineage U5b2b5. The sequence closest to the mummy’s belongs to a contemporary individual from Lebanon.


    Interesting stuff you posted though, which makes me wonder if the samples from Spain and Sardinia could have been Phoenician?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    The sequence closest to the mummy’s belongs to a contemporary individual from Lebanon.
    No, that's referring to a modern sample from Lebanon, which had U5b2. The ancient Phoenician sample is from Carthage. And like I said the closest ancient samples are from Europe, which have U5b2b5. All of these except one were published after the Loreille 2018 paper.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    makes me wonder if the samples from Spain and Sardinia could have been Phoenician?

    No, the samples from Spain date from 3500 BC, this is long before the Phoenicians. U5b2b5 is European in origin not Levantine.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    No, that's referring to a modern sample from Lebanon, which had U5b2. The ancient Phoenician sample is from Carthage. And like I said the closest ancient samples are from Europe, which have U5b2b5. All of these except one were published after the Loreille 2018 paper.


    No, the samples from Spain date from 3500 BC, this is long before the Phoenicians. U5b2b5 is European in origin not Levantine.
    But actually due to Phoenician continuity: Ancient mitogenomes of Phoenicians from Sardinia and Lebanon: A story of settlement, integration, and female mobility 2018 And from Biological Sexing of a 4000-Year-Old Egyptian Mummy Head to Assess the Potential of Nuclear DNA Recovery from the Most Damaged and Limited Forensic Specimens. 2018: " Given limited available data and the fact that U5 is the dominant mitochondrial haplogroup found among hunter-gatherers in Europe [83, 84], the recovery of a haplogroup U5b2b5 sequence from the mummy of Djehutynakht raises the question of data authenticity, despite the molecular metrics suggesting otherwise. When the mummy’s mtDNA sequence is viewed in the context of modern mtDNA diversity, however, the observed U5 lineage could potentially reflect interactions between Egypt and the Near East that date as far back as the Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods [85]. Trade between Egypt and the Near East is evidenced by, among other things, ceramic imports to Egypt [86]. In addition, dwellings similar to those found in Palestine suggest some immigration to Egypt from more arid Near Eastern areas from the late Predynastic to the Old Kingdom [85 87]. Both trade and immigration between Egypt and the Near East continued to increase over time. Demand in Egypt for cedar of Lebanon wood (a wood available and harvested in Lebanon and Syria during the MK) led to the further establishment of trade routes between Egypt and the Levant [85, 86]. It is interesting, and perhaps not coincidental, that the individual with the mtDNA sequence most similar to Djehutynakht comes from a Lebanese individual"

    Now Im not sure where these U5b2b5 samples from Portugal and Spain were from but I bet theyre near the coast and of cultures that either originated and/or traded heavily with the Levantine peoples. For instance the Cardial culture, the Phoenicians, and the Iberians. Plus, we all know that the Hunter gatherers originated in the Levant too.

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    U5b2b5 came from Europe not from the Levant. The Lebanon sample is a modern sample, from within the last few years. It's not ancient DNA. (I checked YFull and it is U5b2b5 though https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U5b2b5/)

    The Phoenician sample (U5b2c1) is from c.600 BC.


    The Spanish sample (U5b2b5) dates from c.3500 BC.

    So it's nonsensical to imagine it travelling 5,500 years backwards in time from Lebanon to Spain.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    U5b2b5 came from Europe not from the Levant. The Lebanon sample is a modern sample, from within the last few years. It's not ancient DNA. (I checked YFull and it is U5b2b5 though )
    The Phoenician sample (U5b2c1) is from c.600 BC.
    The Spanish sample (U5b2b5) dates from c.3500 BC.
    So it's nonsensical to imagine it travelling 5,500 years backwards in time from Lebanon to Spain.
    The article says: "The [U5b2b5] sequence closest to the mummy’s belongs to a contemporary individual from Lebanon" which along with Sardinia have lots of continuity from the Levantine cultures such as PPNB, Phoenician, etc
    And Im not imagining the Cardium Culture / proto-Phoenicians in SE coastal Spain. (Id show the map of the culture and trade route but I need 20 posts prior to sharing any images or links).
    What seems backwards are attempts to make all advances come out of Europe including the Neolithic Expansion, early Egypt, and even the Clovis technology and then using radiomagic dating, Levantine haplogroups like X2, etc etc to attempt proving it.
    Last edited by Daniel; 14-10-20 at 15:17.

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    Distribution of mtDNA U5:



    U5 peaks in northern Scandinavia/the Baltic region and in northern Spain/southern France among the Basques.


    “The age of U5 is estimated at between 25,000 and 35,000 years old, roughly corresponding to the Gravettian culture (…) U5 was the predominant mtDNA of mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherers (…) Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b today form the highest population concentrations in the far north, among Sami, Finns, and Estonians. However, it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals belonging to this clade were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10,000 years ago (…) The modern Basques and Cantabrians possess almost exclusively U5b lineages”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...plogroup_U5



    “Haplogroup U5 is considered to be one of the most ancient haplogroups in Europe and is believed to have arisen there… It is not uncommon in Mesolithic European populations, particularly those from Central and Eastern Europe... the highest frequency of the haplogroup U5b today is in the Iberian peninsula and U5b2c1 was also present there in Mesolithic hunter gatherers… It is very plausible that descendants of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers carried U5b1b1 and sister lineages across the Straits of Gibraltar into North Africa.”

    (Matisoo-Smith et al. 2016)


    “With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent, but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa. ... the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.”

    (Ottoni et al. 2010)


    "modern Basques and Cantabrians possess almost exclusively U5b lineages. What's more, all the Mesolithic U5 samples from Iberia whose subclade could be identified belonged to U5b.(...) Carriers of haplogroup U5 were part of the Gravettian culture, which experienced the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM, 26,000 to 19,000 years ago). During this particularly harsh period, Gravettian people would have retreated into refugia in southern Europe, from which they would have re-expanded to colonise the northern half of the continent during the Late Glacial and postglacial periods. (...) founder effects among the populations of each LGM refugium would have amplified the regional division between U5b and U5a. U5b would have been found at a much higher frequency in the Franco-Cantabrian region."

    
U5b2b: found in Epigravettian Italy, in Epipalaeolithic south-eastern France, in Mesolithic Sicily and Croatia, in Neolithic France, Croatia and Ukraine, in EBA England, and in Bronze Age Poland.

    U5b2b1: found in northern and central Europe / found in Mesolithic Sweden (Pitted Ware culture), in Early Neolithic France and Ukraine, in the Globular Amphora culture (LN Poland), in the Corded Ware culture (Chalcolithic Poland) and in Bronze Age Poland

    U5b2b1a: found in Mesolithic Sicily

    U5b2b2: found in EBA England
    
U5b2b3: found across western Europe / found in Megalithic Spain, Neolithic Italy and Late Neolithic France

    U5b2b4: found in the England, Scandinavia, Germany and Poland

    U5b2b5: found in Chalcolithic Sardinia and Spain, and in the Egyptian Middle Kingdom


    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...U5_mtDNA.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    Id really like to know the demographics when Giza was being built. It seems the oldest mummies test were from about 2000 BC with haplogroups u5b2b5 and m1a1. The closest match for u5b2b5 seems to be a Phoenician in Lebenon while some m1a1 have been found on the upper Tigris at the Cimialo Sirti site.. Before that, I reckon mostly proto-Cushites
    Agree with you bro!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Distribution of mtDNA U5:



    U5 peaks in northern Scandinavia/the Baltic region and in northern Spain/southern France among the Basques.


    “The age of U5 is estimated at between 25,000 and 35,000 years old, roughly corresponding to the Gravettian culture (…) U5 was the predominant mtDNA of mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherers (…) Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b today form the highest population concentrations in the far north, among Sami, Finns, and Estonians. However, it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals belonging to this clade were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10,000 years ago (…) The modern Basques and Cantabrians possess almost exclusively U5b lineages”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...plogroup_U5



    “Haplogroup U5 is considered to be one of the most ancient haplogroups in Europe and is believed to have arisen there… It is not uncommon in Mesolithic European populations, particularly those from Central and Eastern Europe... the highest frequency of the haplogroup U5b today is in the Iberian peninsula and U5b2c1 was also present there in Mesolithic hunter gatherers… It is very plausible that descendants of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers carried U5b1b1 and sister lineages across the Straits of Gibraltar into North Africa.”

    (Matisoo-Smith et al. 2016)


    “With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent, but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa. ... the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.”

    (Ottoni et al. 2010)


    "modern Basques and Cantabrians possess almost exclusively U5b lineages. What's more, all the Mesolithic U5 samples from Iberia whose subclade could be identified belonged to U5b.(...) Carriers of haplogroup U5 were part of the Gravettian culture, which experienced the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM, 26,000 to 19,000 years ago). During this particularly harsh period, Gravettian people would have retreated into refugia in southern Europe, from which they would have re-expanded to colonise the northern half of the continent during the Late Glacial and postglacial periods. (...) founder effects among the populations of each LGM refugium would have amplified the regional division between U5b and U5a. U5b would have been found at a much higher frequency in the Franco-Cantabrian region."

    
U5b2b: found in Epigravettian Italy, in Epipalaeolithic south-eastern France, in Mesolithic Sicily and Croatia, in Neolithic France, Croatia and Ukraine, in EBA England, and in Bronze Age Poland.

    U5b2b1: found in northern and central Europe / found in Mesolithic Sweden (Pitted Ware culture), in Early Neolithic France and Ukraine, in the Globular Amphora culture (LN Poland), in the Corded Ware culture (Chalcolithic Poland) and in Bronze Age Poland

    U5b2b1a: found in Mesolithic Sicily

    U5b2b2: found in EBA England
    
U5b2b3: found across western Europe / found in Megalithic Spain, Neolithic Italy and Late Neolithic France

    U5b2b4: found in the England, Scandinavia, Germany and Poland

    U5b2b5: found in Chalcolithic Sardinia and Spain, and in the Egyptian Middle Kingdom


    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...U5_mtDNA.shtml

    Just the facts. Thank you Bro

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottPreot View Post
    Agree with you bro!
    Thanks and as Philjames100 pointed out, the closest match was not actually an ancient Phoenician but I think Ive showed and will be showing that the sample shows a Phoenician descendant or at least from the Levant which would jive with the Hyskos invasion of what Im thinking was a Cushitic Egypt.

    I hope they start testing more of the Old Kingdom Egyptians.
    Last edited by Daniel; 14-10-20 at 21:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Distribution of mtDNA U5:


    U5 peaks in northern Scandinavia/the Baltic region and in northern Spain/southern France among the Basques.


    “The age of U5 is estimated at between 25,000 and 35,000 years old, roughly corresponding to the Gravettian culture (…) U5 was the predominant mtDNA of mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherers (…) Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b today form the highest population concentrations in the far north, among Sami, Finns, and Estonians. However, it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals belonging to this clade were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10,000 years ago (…) The modern Basques and Cantabrians possess almost exclusively U5b lineages”




    “Haplogroup U5 is considered to be one of the most ancient haplogroups in Europe and is believed to have arisen there… It is not uncommon in Mesolithic European populations, particularly those from Central and Eastern Europe... the highest frequency of the haplogroup U5b today is in the Iberian peninsula and U5b2c1 was also present there in Mesolithic hunter gatherers… It is very plausible that descendants of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers carried U5b1b1 and sister lineages across the Straits of Gibraltar into North Africa.”


    “With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent, but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa. ... the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.”


    "modern Basques and Cantabrians possess almost exclusively U5b lineages. What's more, all the Mesolithic U5 samples from Iberia whose subclade could be identified belonged to U5b.(...) Carriers of haplogroup U5 were part of the Gravettian culture, which experienced the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM, 26,000 to 19,000 years ago). During this particularly harsh period, Gravettian people would have retreated into refugia in southern Europe, from which they would have re-expanded to colonise the northern half of the continent during the Late Glacial and postglacial periods. (...) founder effects among the populations of each LGM refugium would have amplified the regional division between U5b and U5a. U5b would have been found at a much higher frequency in the Franco-Cantabrian region."

    
U5b2b: found in Epigravettian Italy, in Epipalaeolithic south-eastern France, in Mesolithic Sicily and Croatia, in Neolithic France, Croatia and Ukraine, in EBA England, and in Bronze Age Poland.

    U5b2b1: found in northern and central Europe / found in Mesolithic Sweden (Pitted Ware culture), in Early Neolithic France and Ukraine, in the Globular Amphora culture (LN Poland), in the Corded Ware culture (Chalcolithic Poland) and in Bronze Age Poland

    U5b2b1a: found in Mesolithic Sicily

    U5b2b2: found in EBA England
    
U5b2b3: found across western Europe / found in Megalithic Spain, Neolithic Italy and Late Neolithic France

    U5b2b4: found in the England, Scandinavia, Germany and Poland

    U5b2b5: found in Chalcolithic Sardinia and Spain, and in the Egyptian Middle Kingdom

    Haplogroups U and H motifs among both the aboriginal North Africans and Scandinavians furthers my point.

    Most would agree that Berbers including their U6 came from the Near East, particularly the Levant.

    The Sami Haplogroup V is also believed to have originated in the Near East.

    On the other hand, a lot of widespread haplogroup distribution such as H is actually autosomaly Indo-European so we can debate that origin too

    The Gravettians are believed have developed from the Levantine Ahmarians

    Megalithic people likely originated from the Natufians

    Villabruna Cromagnons show close affiliations with Natufians who like the Cro-Magnons, came from the Levant.

    I could go on and on.

    Sorry I had to remove your links to post again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    I think Ive showed and will be showing that the sample shows a Phoenician descendant or at least from the Levant.
    No you haven't shown that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    which would jive with the Hyskos invasion of what Im thinking was a Cushitic Egypt.
    Djehutynakht is from 2000 BC, that's before the Hyksos invasion.

    Also, Cushitics are a different population to Egyptians, different language, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    No you haven't shown that.


    Djehutynakht is from 2000 BC, that's before the Hyksos invasion.

    Also, Cushitics are a different population to Egyptians, different language, etc.
    Yes I think its likely and my last post surely addressed all your issues with it

    Djehutynakht dates vary from around 2000 BC to 1837 BC. Interestingly, his coffin contained fifty model boats, was made of Cedar of Lebanon with decorations that display regional differences and chronological development dated to between the reigns of Sesostris I and Amenemhat II (ca. 1971-1895 BCE). echoesofegypt.peabody.yale.edu/hieroglyphs/coffin-panel-djehuty-nakht

    Maybe you're thinking of the Hyksos takeover. I was referring to the peaceful Hyksos invasion at around 1900 BC and Biblical Archaeologist date the beginning of it quite a bit before this. "Especially from the second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt, whose origins lie in the Middle Bronze Age Levant" Mumford, G. D. Egypt and the Levant, The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of the Levant: c. 8000-332 BCE Oxford (2014).

    Nubians were reported to be more similar to Egyptians and Ethiopians in their Mitochondrial and Y-DNA lineages but close to Ethiopians in their overall genetic affinities. [101] Other studies have linked the ancient population of Sudan and parts of Egypt to the Horn of Africa, though this is not entirely conclusive and must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. [102][103][104][105][106]
    Last edited by Daniel; 15-10-20 at 08:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    Djehutynakht dates vary from around 2000 BC to 1837 BC.

    2010 BC to 1961 BC according to the paper:

    "(Djehutynakht's) tomb has been firmly dated to within a generation between the end of the 11th and the beginning of the 12th Dynasties (1961–2010 BC). The head is clearly original to the tomb."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5867856/

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    Does anyone know where I can obtain better version of the bam files for JK888, JK911, and JK2134?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    Most would agree that Berbers including their U6 came from the Near East, particularly the Levant.
    "the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.”

    (Ottoni et al. 2010)


    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    The Gravettians are believed have developed from the Levantine Ahmarians
    The Ahmarian culture dates from 46,000-42,000 BP. Do you think that U5b2b5 originated in the Ahmarian culture, even though its first appearace in the Levant is about 42,000 years later? Maybe you also think that the Ahmarians were Phoenicians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    Megalithic people likely originated from the Natufians
    The European megalithic people were EEF + Euro HG. Paternally they had almost exclusively Euro HG lineages (I2a).


    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    Villabruna Cromagnons show close affiliations with Natufians who like the Cro-Magnons, came from the Levant.
    Villabruna is significantly different to Natufians. And U5b has not been found in any Natufian remains.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    I could go on and on.
    You haven't provided any evidence for your claims. There's no point going on and on making unfounded and nonsensical claims.

    The fact is, even if U5b2b5 came to Egypt from the Levant, it originally came from Europe. If Phoenicians had U5b2b5 this just means they had European ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post

    2010 BC to 1961 BC according to the paper:

    "(Djehutynakht's) tomb has been firmly dated to within a generation between the end of the 11th and the beginning of the 12th Dynasties (1961–2010 BC). The head is clearly original to the tomb."
    The Yale paper said younger but again it makes no difference because the Hyksos were already pouring in from the earlier date

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    "the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.”



    The Ahmarian culture dates from 46,000-42,000 BP. Do you think that U5b2b5 originated in the Ahmarian culture, even though its first appearace in the Levant is about 42,000 years later? Maybe you also think that the Ahmarians were Phoenicians?



    The European megalithic people were EEF + Euro HG. Paternally they had almost exclusively Euro HG lineages (I2a).



    Villabruna is significantly different to Natufians. And U5b has not been found in any Natufian remains.



    You haven't provided any evidence for your claims. There's no point going on and on making unfounded and nonsensical claims.

    The fact is, even if U5b2b5 came to Egypt from the Levant, it originally came from Europe. If Phoenicians had U5b2b5 this just means they had European ancestry.

    -The related U haplogroup motifs between the Sami and North African Berbers, Canary Islanders and some Egyptian mummies have associations with Near Easterners. Likewise, North African ancestral Iberomaurusians have lots of Natufian

    - You're the one that brought up Gravettian U5 so I simply informed you that the Gravettians came from Levantine Ahmarian, NOT U5b2b5 .

    -EEF such as Otzi the ice man had Levantine haplogroups. Likewise Haplogroup I came from the Levant
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

    -Natufian comprises basal European ancestry and the Neolithic expansion with megalithic Jericho, Gobekli Tepe, and great tools like bow and arrow and all kinds of agriculture


    -"Dzudzuana-like ancestry must have spread across West Eurasia with Neolithic migrations out of the Near East ..In the Near East, the Dzudzuana-related population admixed with North African-related ancestry in the Levant and with Siberian hunter-gatherer and eastern non-African-related ancestry in Iran and the Caucasus. Thus, the highly differentiated populations at the dawn of the Neolithic were primarily descended from Villabruna Cluster and Dzudzuana-related ancestors, with varying degrees of additional input related to both North Africa and Ancient North/East Eurasia"

    This same paper says they dont know the the direction of gene flow but hypothesis opposite directions especially concerning the Natufian's Out of Africa and basal European components, which to me show they're interpretation is very biased and calibrated on flimsy eurocentric radiomagic racial dating.

    -Nah the bottom line is Basal haplogroup U is found in Mal'ta Boy and U come from Southeast Asian haplogroup R, which comes from Levantine Haplogroup N
    Last edited by Daniel; 16-10-20 at 18:38.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    Most would agree that Berbers including their U6 came from the Near East, particularly the Levant.


    Megalithic people likely originated from the Natufians

    Villabruna Cromagnons show close affiliations with Natufians who like the Cro-Magnons, came from the Levant.

    I could go on and on.
    I think you are running fast and are doing kind of shortcuts, maybe. The links between Villabruna and Dzudzuana and between this last and Natufian are not the proof of a straight link between Villabruna and Natufian. And it seems to me I read the direction of genes flow was rather ANA to Natufian than the opposite, concerning North Africa, even if we may suppose the Berbers language came (later?) from people of the Red Sea surroundings. Could you mention me papers backing your affirmations on these points? Thanks beforehand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I think you are running fast and are doing kind of shortcuts, maybe. The links between Villabruna and Dzudzuana and between this last and Natufian are not the proof of a straight link between Villabruna and Natufian. And it seems to me I read the direction of genes flow was rather ANA to Natufian than the opposite, concerning North Africa, even if we may suppose the Berbers language came (later?) from people of the Red Sea surroundings. Could you mention me papers backing your affirmations on these points? Thanks beforehand.
    Sorry I had a post on this but it along with several others and even some edits were somehow deleted. Here is an article quote I mentioned above: "In the Near East, the Dzudzuana-related population admixed with North African-related ancestry in the Levant and with Siberian hunter-gatherer and eastern non-African-related ancestry in Iran and the Caucasus. Thus, the highly differentiated populations at the dawn of the Neolithic were primarily descended from Villabruna Cluster and Dzudzuana-related ancestors, with varying degrees of additional input related to both North Africa and Ancient North/East Eurasia..This Dzudzuana-like ancestry must have spread across West Eurasia with Neolithic migrations out of the Near East."

    Here is more covering what you seem tp mention: "Most of the Dzudzuana population’s ancestry was deeply related to the post-glacial western European hunter-gatherers of the ‘Villabruna cluster’, but it also had ancestry from a lineage that had separated from the great majority of non-African populations before they separated from each other, proving that such ‘Basal Eurasians’ were present in West Eurasia twice as early as previously recorded. We document major population turnover in the Near East after the time of Dzudzuana, showing that the highly differentiated Holocene populations of the region were formed by ‘Ancient North Eurasian’ admixture into the Caucasus and Iran and North African admixture into the Natufians of the Levant. We finally show that the Dzudzuana population contributed the majority of the ancestry of post-Ice Age people in the Near East, North Africa, and even parts of Europe"

    What I gather from their conclusion is that a Dzudzuana population from the Caucasus, which had ANE and Villabruna DNA took over the Levant and from there swept over large portions of Europe, Asia and Africa, etc This Dzudzuana population is at least partly known as the Natufians who also had ancient North African ancesty

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    This is a very interesting article explaining what Ive been talking about. Wish I would have found it earlier

    Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands


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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    This is a very interesting article explaining what Ive been talking about. Wish I would have found it earlier

    Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands
    As the very most of our modern Humans ancestors (we Eurasians, even western) come some time long ago from Africa, and surely through Near-East or a region close to it, we may say Villabruna come "once upon a time" from Near East. The question is: Villabruna cluster people were in Europe long time BEFORE NEOLITHIC! And Villabruna had common ancestor with THE NOT BASAL EURASIAN Dzudzuana ancestor; the fact we found this Dzudzuana in Caucasus doesn't say us where this ancestors were living before. So to say Villabruna come from Natufians who have AND Basal Eurasian AND Ancient North African ancestry is not only a shortcut but distords reality a bit, in my view, concerning time and direction of genes flow. Just my point.
    It's not to say this 'dzudzuana' part didn't come from Near East at some point of History but it would have been very sooner, in a very far time I don't know about just now ; but if we rely on trees about Villabruna we see it would have shared a lot of ancestry with the mesolithical Loschbour and more ancient ancestry with Vestonice-16, this last one old of about 30000. The uniparental markers and this shared ancestry point to a long and not straight way from the Near East to Europe !

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Moesan what is your opinion on this comments by Daniel

    “”-EEF such as Otzi the ice man had Levantine haplogroups. Likewise Haplogroup I came from the Levant.””
    ""-Nah the bottom line is Basal haplogroup U is found in Mal'ta Boy and U come from Southeast Asian haplogroup R, which comes from Levantine Haplogroup N ""

    How many thousands of years has Haplogroup I been in Europe ! 20,000 TO 30,000 THOUSAND YEARS, if not more! Wont that be like saying the Chinese Haplogroup O is Levantine because – well it is about what 45,000 thousand years ago! What about the Aborigines in Australia? Well they have a Levantine Haplogroup also, we all do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorquest View Post
    Moesan what is your opinion on this comments by Daniel

    “”-EEF such as Otzi the ice man had Levantine haplogroups. Likewise Haplogroup I came from the Levant.””
    ""-Nah the bottom line is Basal haplogroup U is found in Mal'ta Boy and U come from Southeast Asian haplogroup R, which comes from Levantine Haplogroup N ""

    How many thousands of years has Haplogroup I been in Europe ! 20,000 TO 30,000 THOUSAND YEARS, if not more! Wont that be like saying the Chinese Haplogroup O is Levantine because – well it is about what 45,000 thousand years ago! What about the Aborigines in Australia? Well they have a Levantine Haplogroup also, we all do!
    You can easily devine that my view is close to yours!
    Time passes and people moves, brethren go their ways and separate... If history is only to found our more ancient common ancestors, we could go back until the coelacanthe (fish).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorquest View Post
    Moesan what is your opinion on this comments by Daniel

    “”-EEF such as Otzi the ice man had Levantine haplogroups. Likewise Haplogroup I came from the Levant.””
    ""-Nah the bottom line is Basal haplogroup U is found in Mal'ta Boy and U come from Southeast Asian haplogroup R, which comes from Levantine Haplogroup N ""

    How many thousands of years has Haplogroup I been in Europe ! 20,000 TO 30,000 THOUSAND YEARS, if not more! Wont that be like saying the Chinese Haplogroup O is Levantine because – well it is about what 45,000 thousand years ago! What about the Aborigines in Australia? Well they have a Levantine Haplogroup also, we all do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moesan View Post
    You can easily devine that my view is close to yours!
    Time passes and people moves, brethren go their ways and separate... If history is only to found our more ancient common ancestors, we could go back until the coelacanthe (fish).
    It seems you're projecting your own radiometric centrism. You claim these Egyptian mummies must of come from Europe because the Haplogroup U Cro-Magnons were dated in Europe to 30-odd thousand years ago. I simply showed that your own maestros claim these same Cro-magnon had recently migrated from the Levant.

    Yes, Otzi is yDNA G2a2b and mtDNA K1f. A genetic study on Palestinians showed that 75% were yDNA G2a and like 32% of Ashknazi Jews are mtDNA K1

    And why didn't you guys didn't read the article on on how Phoenicians spread U haplogroups like U5 ?
    Last edited by Daniel; 26-11-20 at 05:54.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    with some people like Daniel, there really is no point. You're not dealing with a rational person.

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