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Thread: Ancient Egyptian dna-Kraus et al

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    Ancient Egyptian dna-Kraus et al

    All we have so far is the abstract, but the paper will be out shortly.

    Ancient Egyptian Mummy Genomes Suggest an Increase of Sub-Saharan African Ancestry in Post-Roman Periods

    Krause et al.

    Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented interactions with ancient civilizations in Africa, Asia, and Europe. Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we mtDNA and nuclear DNA from mummified humans recovered from Middle Egypt that span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the Third Intermediate to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more Near Eastern ancestry than present-day Egyptians, who received additional Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

    So, I guess the "ancient mummies are from around 1300 BC to the Common Era.

    If the paper proves what is in the abstract, I don't see anything too surprising here. Egypt experience an influx of farmers from the Middle East, and then in this period they're discussing you have a new influx with the Hyksos, and other historically attested movements like the Sea Peoples. To that would be added the large numbers of Greeks who made their home especially in the Delta area around their city of Alexandria.

    I think a lot of people have speculated that the the Arab slave trade would have brought more SSA into Egypt, perhaps showing up in a hierarchical order, with more of it in the lower classes. Unlike many people I'm not so sure it was all West African. They also imported a lot of women slaves from East Africa from what I remember.

    I hope they rather quickly publish anything they have on Old Dynasty Egypt and we can see what it was like at that time. I have a hunch it was more SSA. We have SSA yDna in Pharoahs, and the Nubian dynasty as well.

    I wonder if Copts will be the closest to the first millennium BC Egyptians?







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    OH MAN I am feing euphoric at the moment! I've been WAITING for a study done on Ancient Egyptian dna for who knows how long and now it's here! Thank you for posting this !!!

    Also looking forward to Ancient Greek dna samples.

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    Grrrrrr come on people !!! Release the paper!!!! I'm dying to see it!

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    Wow. This is really exciting!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Sounds interesting, especially since Ramesses III of the 20th dynasty (1189-1077 BCE) belong to the Sub-Saharan African E1b1a. That would mean that common folk were Near Eastern-like, but the ruling elite at the time were of SSA ancestry. Of course that's juts one dynasty, so it doesn't mean much. We'll see.
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    The Third Intermediate Period of Ancient Egypt began with the death of Pharaoh Ramesses XI in 1070 BC

    that is after the invasion of the Hyksos and the Sea Peoples

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    The paper won't be out soon. Usually takes at least a year to be published after it is made public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maciamo
    Sounds interesting, especially since Ramesses III of the 20th dynasty (1189-1077 BCE) belong to the Sub-Saharan African E1b1a. That would mean that common folk were Near Eastern-like, but the ruling elite at the time were of SSA ancestry. Of course that's juts one dynasty, so it doesn't mean much. We'll see.
    His father Sethnacht likely was a commoner with unclear circumstances of his coming into power. There were some years of lawnessness during Tauseret's reign and he managed somehow to first co-rule and then pretty fast succeeding her after two years. So SSA lineages were not necessarily the elite during that time.
    Last edited by ngc598; 14-03-17 at 15:41. Reason: misinterpreted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    I hope they rather quickly publish anything they have on Old Dynasty Egypt and we can see what it was like at that time. I have a hunch it was more SSA. We have SSA yDna in Pharoahs, and the Nubian dynasty as well.

    I wonder if Copts will be the closest to the first millennium BC Egyptians?





    There is actually one SSA kinda yDNA in the pharoahs and it is E1b1a. But by now we should know how yDNA can be misleading. Contrary I expect that the Old Dynasty Egyptians will be even less SSA and more like Levant_Neo or Natufians. And with time Nubian admixture should have effected them.

    I expect that we will see an increase of SSA admixture during the Nubian period in South Egypt and in late Egypt during the Slave trade and later Islamic expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Sounds interesting, especially since Ramesses III of the 20th dynasty (1189-1077 BCE) belong to the Sub-Saharan African E1b1a. That would mean that common folk were Near Eastern-like, but the ruling elite at the time were of SSA ancestry. Of course that's juts one dynasty, so it doesn't mean much. We'll see.
    The sequenced samples in this study are of royal background as far as I remember.
    yDNA can always be misleading even in modern Egypt there are like ~10% E1b1a.

    What this study basically shows and what most people without an Eurocentric or Afrocentric agenda should have known is.

    modern Egypt ~ ancient Egypt.

    less SSA doesn't mean there was a lack of it, just that it was less. But I expect some variation from dynasty to dynasty and region to region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    The Third Intermediate Period of Ancient Egypt began with the death of Pharaoh Ramesses XI in 1070 BC

    that is after the invasion of the Hyksos and the Sea Peoples
    So the samples are from 1070 BC forward, and after the Hyksos and Sea Peoples, but also after the time of Rameses III and his SSA yDna, yes? Interesting.

    As others have said, in either case it's elite people, so the common people could be different.

    I honestly never thought I'd live to see the day that some of these questions would be answered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As others have said, in either case it's elite people, so the common people could be different.

    I honestly never thought I'd live to see the day that some of these questions would be answered.
    wikipedia learns already something about the rulers .. Lybians and Nubians

    I guess, originaly in Egypt, the common people were in majority Natufians coming from the Levant, as it was them who introduced agriculture in Northern Africa

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    I posted a thread, then was alerted to the initial discussion on the abstract


    First Genomes from Ancient Egypt



    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

    Check it out.

    Very little SSA compared to modern Egyptians, and very similar to Bronze Age Levant

    The three males were two J's and one E1b1b1a1b2

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    As I thought, Ancient Egyptians look like a Levant_BA or Levant_ late Neolithic population rather than Levant_Neolithic/Natufian. So ancient EGyptians might indeed be a Bronze Age arrival in the region, explains their more modern Middle Eastern like DNA in comparison to other North Africans who look like Levant_Neolithic without much Iran_Neo/CHL ancestry.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxjXJmMxqBk

    Here's an interesting video with an Egyptian man reading his DNA results from Ancestry DNA.

    I kind of figured the Egyptians had strong connections to the neolithic farmers, based on the geographic proximity. The fertile Nile valley would have attracted people with those skills, to survive there.

    The increase of sub-Saharan African DNA could have happened after the Nubian conquest in 760 BC. Afterwards, there was the establishment of the 25th Dynasty, that lasted until 656 BC.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty...nasty_of_Egypt

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    Thought this thread would be interesting to bring up in light of the Egyptian paper coming out soon.

    So what was in North Africa before Levantine like populations moved in? I believe Iberomasurians. Were they a three way ix of SSA, West Eurasian and Basal Eurasian like some models show?

    What subclasses of E in Egypt are not SSA like? And if E is originally SSA like what ydna did the West Eurasian (iberomasurian?) part of North Africa belong to? Also it makes sense the Nubian dynasties and African slave trade increased SSA trade. I'm curious how much impact Nubians made given that they were deported by Assyrians,

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    the Egyptian paper coming out soon.
    Any more details on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Thought this thread would be interesting to bring up in light of the Egyptian paper coming out soon.

    So what was in North Africa before Levantine like populations moved in? I believe Iberomasurians. Were they a three way ix of SSA, West Eurasian and Basal Eurasian like some models show?

    What subclasses of E in Egypt are not SSA like? And if E is originally SSA like what ydna did the West Eurasian (iberomasurian?) part of North Africa belong to? Also it makes sense the Nubian dynasties and African slave trade increased SSA trade. I'm curious how much impact Nubians made given that they were deported by Assyrians,
    In my view (of course just a conjecture based on what is known so far), there was a genetic cline between Morocco (Iberomaurusian) and Southwest Asia (Levant/Arabia) from more ANA (Ancestral North African) and less Dzudzuana-related West Eurasian to more of that (in Natufians in the easternmost part of the cline). So some of that heavy Natufian admixture in the 2017 aDNA samples from Abusir el-Meleq might in fact be "indigenous" (at least going back to Late Paleolithic times), but assigned to Natufians because of the lack of a more proximate source, given that the indigenous Egyptian population was already quite similar to the Natufians.

    EDIT: Btw, tell me more about this paper coming out soon. I'm not aware of this exciting news!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    In my view (of course just a conjecture based on what is known so far), there was a genetic cline between Morocco (Iberomaurusian) and Southwest Asia (Levant/Arabia) from more ANA (Ancestral North African) and less Dzudzuana-related West Eurasian to more of that (in Natufians in the easternmost part of the cline). So some of that heavy Natufian admixture in the 2017 aDNA samples from Abusir el-Meleq might in fact be "indigenous" (at least going back to Late Paleolithic times), but assigned to Natufians because of the lack of a more proximate source, given that the indigenous Egyptian population was already quite similar to the Natufians.

    EDIT: Btw, tell me more about this paper coming out soon. I'm not aware of this exciting news!
    That makes sense. But what is the ANA component related to? Is it predominantly Basal Eurasian or SSA? Is there any West Eurasian in it too?

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    as far as i know Ramesses III of the 20th dynasty (1189-1077 BCE)
    is predicted to be e1b1a
    but we need snp test to be sure he was e1b1a .........
    there were greater Pharoahs than him by expanding the Egyptian empire
    but he was great by winning the sea people on his own yard after they attacked egypt



    p.s
    should be interesting paper
    and cool if the ancient Egyptians were closer
    to levant neolithic and bronze age levant ....
    that would finish the Afrocentric views i see in other forums once and for all
    Sefhardi/aschenazi/mizrahi/bulgarian
    E-L791 dude from anthrogenica:
    -Y60961 > E-Y62418 has 2 Sephardic branches, related within the last 3,000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    ......................

    ............................
    p.s
    should be interesting paper
    and cool if the ancient Egyptians were closer
    to levant neolithic and bronze age levant ....
    that would finish the Afrocentric views i see in other forums once and for all

    Well, not really. Afrocentrists on anthrogenica are already arguing for Natufian being a proper African component that is mislabed as "Western Eurasian" by geneticists. They claim that just because ancient Egyptians appear not to be closely related to modern SSAs that doesn‘t mean that they were not closely related to archaic yet unsampled African people. To them Basal Eurasian is most likely also an African component similar to ANA, etc. In addition to that, they assert that fully black Africans can have Caucasian facial features and straight hair without any Western Eurasian admixture(which is objectively wrong) and that the categories negroid, caucasiod, mongoloid or australoid are not real. Therefore to them ancient Egyptians having overwhelmingly Caucasian hair or being closely related to people from the Levant doesn't refute their conclusion that ancient Egyptians were native Africans.


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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Well, not really. Afrocentrists on anthrogenica are already arguing for Natufian being a proper African component that is mislabed as "Western Eurasian" by geneticists. They claim that just because ancient Egyptians appear not to be closely related to modern SSAs that doesn‘t mean that they were not closely related to archaic yet unsampled African people. To them Basal Eurasian is most likely also an African component similar to ANA, etc. In addition to that, they assert that fully black Africans can have Caucasian facial features and straight hair without any Western Eurasian admixture(which is objectively wrong) and that the categories negroid, caucasiod, mongoloid or australoid are not real. Therefore to them ancient Egyptians having overwhelmingly Caucasian hair or being closely related to people from the Levant doesn't refute their conclusion that ancient Egyptians were native Africans.

    Africa is just a continent. You don't get to claim everything that every occurred on it or claim everybody on the continent is the same. Eurasia is a continent too but nobody would confuse the English with Japanese.

    ANA and Basal Eurasians were probably isolated from SSA for a long time in North Africa and SW Asia respectively. Also their heirs are West Eurasians not Africans.

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    Does it say which haplogroups?

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    Id really like to know the demographics when Giza was being built. It seems the oldest mummies test were from about 2000 BC with haplogroups u5b2b5 and m1a1. The closest match for u5b2b5 seems to be a Phoenician in Lebenon while some m1a1 have been found on the upper Tigris at the Cimialo Sirti site.. Before that, I reckon mostly proto-Cushites

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    The closest match for u5b2b5 seems to be a Phoenician in Lebenon
    No the closest matches are ancient samples from Spain (c.3500 BC), Switzerland (c.2900 BC), and Sardinia (c.2300 BC) which also have U5b2b5. The Phoenician mentioned in the paper was from Carthage; he had the related European mtDNA lineage U5b2c1.





    “Here, we describe the biological sexing of a ~4000-year-old Egyptian mummy (…) The mtGenome profile independently obtained from the tooth by the FBI and HMS laboratories was identical … The haplotype belongs to mitochondrial DNA lineage U5b2b5. The Djehutynakht mtDNA sequence was compared to available ancient human DNA sequences … related U5b2b sequences have been observed in ancient human remains from Europe, and a haplogroup U5b2c1 haplotype was recently discovered in 2600-year-old remains from Phoenicia [Carthage]. When only the mtDNA sequences recovered from ancient Egyptian human remains are considered, the Djehutynakht sequence most closely resembles a U5a lineage from sample JK2903, a 2000-year-old skeleton from Abusir el-Meleq. … U5 was the dominant mitochondrial haplogroup found among hunter-gatherers in Europe.”

    (Loreille et al. 2018) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5867856/


    "Loreille’s examination also showed that Djehutynakht’s DNA carried clues to another mystery. For centuries, archaeologists and historians have debated the origins of the ancient Egyptians and how closely related they were to modern people living in North Africa. To the researchers’ surprise, the governor’s mitochondrial DNA indicated his ancestry on his mother’s side, or haplogroup, was Eurasian. “No one will ever believe us,” Loreille recalls telling her colleague Jodi Irwin. “There’s a European haplogroup in an ancient mummy.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/l...86291.html?amp


    'A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa' (Matisoo-Smith et al 2016)

    “In 1994, a Punic burial crypt was discovered on Byrsa Hill, near the entry to the National Museum of Carthage in Tunisia. Inside this crypt were the remains of a young man along with a range of burial goods, all dating to the late 6th century BCE. Here we describe the complete mitochondrial genome recovered from the Young Man of Byrsa and identify that he carried a rare European haplogroup (U5b2c1) … This result provides the first direct ancient DNA evidence of a Phoenician individual. (…)

    Haplogroup U5 is considered to be one of the most ancient haplogroups in Europe and is believed to have arisen there. It is not uncommon in Mesolithic European populations, particularly those from Central and Eastern Europe. (…)
    Haplogroup U5b2c1 has been identified in both La Braña 1 and 2, the 7000 year-old remains recovered from the La Braña-Arintero site in León in Northwestern Spain.

    All of the reported U5b2c1 carriers are of presumably (if not specifically stated) European ancestry, from Spain, Portugal, England, Ireland, Scotland, the United States and Germany. Three of the additional non-defining mutations found in our Phoenician, 5351G, 6023A, and 9869T, are shared with one “European” sample and an individual from central Portugal. Interestingly, our Phoenician sample is most closely related to the modern sample from central Portugal. (...)

    Achilli, et al. (2015), using full mitochondrial genome sequencing identified a U5b1b1 cluster that grouped Amazigh (North African Berbers) and Saami. This cluster is based on the control region motif (16270–150) which is present at low frequencies in Amazigh, North African and nearly all European populations with the exception of the Scandinavian Saami where it is at about 48%. The divergence time of this cluster is around 8600 years ago (+/- 2400) consistent with an expansion from Franco-Cantabrian refuge which is believed to have been a major refuge for the European hunter-gatherers prior to their post LGM (Late Glacial Maximum) expansion. It is very plausible that descendants of the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers carried U5b1b1 and sister lineages across the Straits of Gibraltar into North Africa.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4880306/
    Last edited by Philjames100; 14-10-20 at 06:43.

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