Y Chromosomal landscape of West Asia.

Angela

Elite member
Messages
21,823
Reaction score
12,327
Points
113
Ethnic group
Italian
It's basically uplands versus lowlands.

See: O. Balonovsky et al
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-017-1770-2

"Y-chromosomal variation in West Asian populations has so far been studied in less detail than in the neighboring Europe. Here, we analyzed 598 Y-chromosomes from two West Asian subregions—Transcaucasia and the Armenian plateau—using 40 Y-SNPs and 17 Y-STRs and combined them with previously published data from the region. The West Asian populations fell into two clusters: upland populations from the Anatolian, Armenian and Iranian plateaus, and lowland populations from the Levant, Mesopotamia and the Arabian Peninsula. This geographic subdivision corresponds with the linguistic difference between Indo-European and Turkic speakers, on the one hand, and Semitic speakers, on the other. This subdivision could be traced back to the Neolithic epoch, when upland populations from the Anatolian and Iranian plateaus carried similar haplogroup spectra but did not overlap with lowland populations from the Levant. We also found that the initial gene pool of the Armenian motherland population has been well preserved in most groups of the Armenian Diaspora. In view of the contribution of West Asians to the autosomal gene pool of the steppe Yamnaya archaeological culture, we sequenced a large portion of the Y-chromosome in haplogroup R1b samples from present-day East European steppe populations. The ancient Yamnaya samples are located on the “eastern” R-GG400 branch of haplogroup R1b-L23, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya still live in the Pontic steppe and that the ancient Yamnaya population was not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans."


That last statement seems a stretch given that we don't have genomes from the western part of the Yamnaya horizon. They should modify it. However, I said as soon as the Haak paper came out that the wording was a little too broad given the lack of samples from certain areas. Of course, they could all have these samples and don't want to reveal them yet, so who knows.

Amazing that they've put even the supplement behind a pay wall.
 
The ancient Yamnaya samples are located on the “eastern” R-GG400 branch of haplogroup R1b-L23, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya still live in the Pontic steppe and that the ancient Yamnaya population was not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans."


That last statement seems a stretch given that we don't have genomes from the western part of the Yamnaya horizon. They should modify it. However, I said as soon as the Haak paper came out that the wording was a little too broad given the lack of samples from certain areas. Of course, they could all have these samples and don't want to reveal them yet, so who knows.

Amazing that they've put even the supplement behind a pay wall.

I don't see how one thing - an eastern subbranch of L23 - could exclude another thing - Yamna being paternal to West-Europeans.
And what is this R-GG400 SNP? Where is it on the pedigree?

Since El Portalon has EHG-like but no CHG-like admixture and the oldest sample - ATP3 is 5.4 ka and is R1b-M269, it might indeed be that Yamna is not ancestral to Western Europe, but at least it is a paternal brotherclade of R1b-L23, so Western Europa and Yamna would have a common ancestor then. Maybe the link is Suvorovo. Maybe steppe herders learned about copper melting in the Balkans and then some of them went looking for copper ores in Iberia.

I'm awaiting the Bell Beaker paper. It may bring some big surprises.
I guess both R1b-M269 and I2a2a will be in both western Yamna and in early chalcolithic Iberia. And maybe R1b-L151 was born in Iberia.
 
I can't judge the findings of this paper without access to it or at least to the Supplement, which is usually more informative.

Beyond that, though, we'd have to have results from the western Yamnaya horizon. Perhaps they have them and just aren't saying. We have no way of knowing.

Also, I've heard that they say in the paper that the Indo-European urheimat is in West Asia and is somehow connected to that clade.That sounds like the Krause and Allentoft formulation, or some version of a stage 1 south of the Caucasus and a stage 2 on the steppe. If they don't have inside information about results from the upcoming Caucasus paper that's a stretch.

What is beyond question, however, is that to postulate that Russian scientists would have some sort of confirmation bias against a Yamnaya theory of the Indo-Europeans is amusing. Even more amusing is who is asserting that. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. :)

As to the ATP3, then that isn't the sample whose M269 status has been changed?
 
Supplements are here

And what is this R-GG400 SNP? Where is it on the pedigree?
GG400 is another name for Y4371/Z1828/M12149, which is at the Z2103 level. It just means R1b-Z2103. I have no idea why they don't just call it Z2103, they know it's Z2103 equivalent.

They went through the Samara Yamnaya samples and found out the most of them were Z2103 and several were KMS75 (which they call GG625), which they also found in a new (modern) Crimean Tatar sample. Which we already knew (thanks to the analysis of smal) for almost 2 years already, so they are a little behind, but nice to have it in a formal publication anyway.

There are also a bunch of new samples of Georgians and diaspora Armenians, which they tested for Z2103, but not for any of its subclades.
 
Supplements are here


GG400 is another name for Y4371/Z1828/M12149, which is at the Z2103 level. It just means R1b-Z2103. I have no idea why they don't just call it Z2103, they know it's Z2103 equivalent.

They went through the Samara Yamnaya samples and found out the most of them were Z2103 and several were KMS75 (which they call GG625), which they also found in a new (modern) Crimean Tatar sample. Which we already knew (thanks to the analysis of smal) for almost 2 years already, so they are a little behind, but nice to have it in a formal publication anyway.

There are also a bunch of new samples of Georgians and diaspora Armenians, which they tested for Z2103, but not for any of its subclades.

well the R1b Yamna results are in this tree, aren't they?
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background
nothing new, in that case
 
As to the ATP3, then that isn't the sample whose M269 status has been changed?

the ATP3 M269 status is based on only 1 deciphered SNP, but it seems to be a clear read, so it is not 100 % sure but very likely
there is also 1 SNP read that confirms R1b-P297 status, which makes M269 even more likely

so, who changed the status and from what to what and based on what?

I know many have a hard time or even refuse to believe the M269 status.
 
Beyond that, though, we'd have to have results from the western Yamnaya horizon. Perhaps they have them and just aren't saying. We have no way of knowing.

Sometimes I imagine that genetists found no L51 in the western steppe but they found it in Iberian BB. I figure out how they would try to understand it asking to the holy cows of IE archaeology and linguistics. I suppose that the holy cows would do everything on their hands to stop their own ragnarok.
 
Whatever they sequenced there their conclusion is wrong or it is based entirely on Haplogroups. Mesopotamia is definitely from what I have seen more like Anatolia and the Iranian Plateau. Levant is a thing of it's own just like the Arabian Peninsula is.
 
Very exciting study! I was waiting for new Y-DNA data for West Asia and the Pontic Steppe for quite some time. The supplementary file 439_2017_1770_MOESM25_ESM.xlsx contains a list of the 600 Y-DNA samples tested. That will be very useful to improve the accuracy of my Y-DNA maps.

It's just unfortunate that they didn't test deeper subclades. All the R1b-L23 are labeled R1b-Z2130, which I suppose is Z2103, as Z2130 is a J2 SNP and I have never seen it attributed to R1b.
 
Whatever they sequenced there their conclusion is wrong or it is based entirely on Haplogroups. Mesopotamia is definitely from what I have seen more like Anatolia and the Iranian Plateau. Levant is a thing of it's own just like the Arabian Peninsula is.

Are you speaking of an-auDNA? Have we anDNA of Mesopotamia? (perhaps I missed some data) - I did not think Anatolia was the same as Iranian plateau, haplo's or auDNA concerned - even today after historic moves on every side they are distinct.
That said we still wait for ancient Y-R1b South the Caucasus before the 3000 BC; sure more ancient haplo's of North Anatolia would be welcome, the same for S-E Caspian regions... to date I think more than a door remains open for different theories (suspense!)
 
Are you speaking of an-auDNA? Have we anDNA of Mesopotamia? (perhaps I missed some data) - I did not think Anatolia was the same as Iranian plateau, haplo's or auDNA concerned - even today after historic moves on every side they are distinct.
That said we still wait for ancient Y-R1b South the Caucasus before the 3000 BC; sure more ancient haplo's of North Anatolia would be welcome, the same for S-E Caspian regions... to date I think more than a door remains open for different theories (suspense!)

I have seen aDNA from Iraqis on 23andme beside a few outliars who looked either Arabian or Kurdish, the large majority of them appeared to be something like a mix of 6/10 Kurdish or Iranian, 3/10 Arabian and 1/10 something Assyrian like.
 
I have seen aDNA from Iraqis on 23andme beside a few outliars who looked either Arabian or Kurdish, the large majority of them appeared to be something like a mix of 6/10 Kurdish or Iranian, 3/10 Arabian and 1/10 something Assyrian like.

Did that include any so called "Marsh Arabs", or other tribal Arabs? What percentage of the total population do they represent? Wouldn't certain groups who had less impact from recent migrations be better for clues as to the ancient populations? That is, until we get ancient dna.
 
None here is talking about the one or, perhaps, two members of I-M170, negative for I1-M253 and I2-P215, found in this paper. Is this extremely rare lineage previously found somewhere else?

Interesting that these members are found in the North Caucasus. Perhaps close to the origin of IJ.
 
None here is talking about the one or, perhaps, two members of I-M170, negative for I1-M253 and I2-P215, found in this paper. Is this extremely rare lineage previously found somewhere else?
An Armenian from Rostov, so not really North Caucasian. But another one was found in the North Caucasus, actually: a Lak from Dagestan, in Karafet et al 2016, "Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan".
 
An Armenian from Rostov, so not really North Caucasian. But another one was found in the North Caucasus, actually: a Lak from Dagestan, in Karafet et al 2016, "Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan".

Not really North Caucasus if we assume he is really descended from original Armenians but this remains unknown to us. What we know for sure is that this I* is only found in North Caucasus populations.
 
None here is talking about the one or, perhaps, two members of I-M170, negative for I1-M253 and I2-P215, found in this paper. Is this extremely rare lineage previously found somewhere else?

Interesting that these members are found in the North Caucasus. Perhaps close to the origin of IJ.

How did they classify them as I* ? I hope it wasn't based on str only.
 
SNPs:
M170+ ( I )
M253- ( I1 )
P215- ( I2 )

Wow,so I* still lives .. does this tell us anything on the route haplogroup I took to reach Europe ? via the Caucasus maybe ? I am also interested if they cluster together under a common snp, if they were numerous enough we might have an I3 haplogroup.
 
The I* results are indeed very interesting. There was also an I* found in Di Cristofaro 2013 belonging to a Hazara in Afghanistan, although the SNP they tested on that individual to represent Haplogroup I was unfortunately different (M258), so I've speculated that he may actually be IJ. There's a very good chance that we're seeing newly discovered I3 here.
 
A slightly deeper dive into the reported I*s after looking at their STRs:

ARM-171: Definitely I1, which wasn't tested by SNP.
UDI-118: This one is confirmed I* by SNPs. Its STRs come close-ish to a lot of I1s, but not enough to suspect that its M253 call is wrong. Doesn't match anything else closely, including other suspected I*s. Must be I3.
GEO-126: Could be I2 (xP37,M223), like I2c, but it's not like any I2c I've ever seen before. It doesn't have any close matches in databases that I could find. Doesn't match UDI-118 at all. A little closer to AZ6_5 (the Hazara I mentioned), but not close enough to confirm that they're on the same branch. Who knows?
GEO-127: Probably I2c2, which wasn't tested by SNP.
 

This thread has been viewed 12046 times.

Back
Top