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Thread: Could have Goths been of Scandinavian R1a

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    Could have Goths been of Scandinavian R1a

    My DNA result gave result as R1a subclass Z284>L448 and ever since I've tried to figure out the ways of my ancestors. My family originates from Serbo-Bulgarian parts of the Balkan (certain for past 200 years) and it confuses me how could the Scandinavian R1a be settle in the Balkans.

    It might be a long-shot, but understand that I am not historian and I am using only info I found on the internet. Let's take a look at R1a migration map:


    cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg


    Presuming majority of the Z284 inhabited areas around Gotland in todays Sweden ~1700BCE.

    Present day map of Scandinavian R1a:


    s3.amazonaws.com/photos.geni.com/p13/02/f8/13/62/53444839cf658d24/r1a-l448_mariusz_large.jpg


    Wikipedia suggests that Goths in period 750BCE-1AC came from the same region of Gotland to what today is Denmark and Poland.


    upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germanic_tribes_%28750BC-1AD%29.png


    By the centuries and conflicts, co-living with Roman Empire they spread across Europe. Familiar are the East Goths - Ostrogoths often connected with the Chernyakhov culture that inhabited parts of todays Romania, Moldova and Ukraine.

    Take look at this video:


    youtu.be/oWWLECJnylM?t=3m22s


    and notice movement of the Ostrogoths by the Invasion of Huns and later by migration of Bulgars to Balkans.

    Could not have some part of the Ostrogoths been assimilated with the Bulgars and this way going deeper into Balkans. Does anyone else have any opinion on this?

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    Didn't Varangian Vikings pass through the Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sljoza View Post
    Could not have some part of the Ostrogoths been assimilated with the Bulgars and this way going deeper into Balkans. Does anyone else have any opinion on this?
    Goths is a good assumption. In the time of the Big Walkabout...
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...od_deutsch.svg
    ...there were quite a lot of them in the Balkans. You have even the choice between Visi and Ostro.

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    Varangian Vikings were my first thought as well.

    These articles may be of some help (you will need to copy an paste each of the links into a browser as I do not have a sufficient post count to post full links as yet):

    medievalists.net/2015/08/visual-material-evidence-of-viking-presence-in-the-balkans/

    academia.edu/16720256 - The Vikings on the Balkans (10th–11th centuries). Strategic and tactical changes. New archaeological data on the weaponry.

    davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

    What struck me in the 3rd article is the statement concerning R1a1 on page 24 which states that:

    'The percentage typically found in Norway and Sweden is about 20%, and is the one haplogroup that, if found in Britain, is almost certainly attributable to the presence of the Vikings'.

    This leads me to speculate, following the same logic, as to whether a similar route of transmission may have occurred given the Viking presence in the Balkans.

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    (double post)
    Last edited by sljoza; 23-03-17 at 19:08. Reason: (double post)

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    Thank you for sharing those maps and articles. I enjoyed reading them, but I found some things in paper "Central Asia Roots of Scandinavia" to be in contrary to what seems to be widely accepted. With the first link I had shared (R1a migration map) you can see that it came to Scandinavian peninsula 1700 BC while author of this paper suggest that Gothic/Hunnic people brought this haplogroup to Scandinavia in around 5,6th century. What would your opinion on this be?

    Also, knowing that Finnish people are of Asian origin, Wikipedia states that they also inhabited Scandinavia BC, is there maybe any connection to Finnish people according to this document.

    Origin of Z284 on Balkans might be of Viking descend, but beside Varangian guard I haven't found any sources on matter that Vikings had settled on Balkan peninsula. They seemingly just aided Rus' into fighting Bulgaria and probably set of to another mercenary work. Of course some of the Z284 could be a product of interaction with local women at the time they stayed. Comparing this to the period of few centuries that Goth inhabited Tracia and Dacia is very little. There is just question wether Goths did carry R1a or they did not.

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    Hello Sljoza, where did you test?

    I encourage you to join R1a Project at FTDNA (if tested with this company or with Geno): https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1a/about

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    Aparently nevgen showed different result for me when I ran it again after few months, so I guess I am not Z284 after all, tho I am still interested in this topic.

    Hello Artmar,

    I've done test in my country, not by sending my sample to any of those big companies. I don't think this company is supported by any of those projects you shared, because I didn't recieve anykind of instructions or login along with my result. Otherwise I would gladly join.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sljoza View Post
    Thank you for sharing those maps and articles. I enjoyed reading them, but I found some things in paper "Central Asia Roots of Scandinavia" to be in contrary to what seems to be widely accepted. With the first link I had shared (R1a migration map) you can see that it came to Scandinavian peninsula 1700 BC while author of this paper suggest that Gothic/Hunnic people brought this haplogroup to Scandinavia in around 5,6th century. What would your opinion on this be?

    Also, knowing that Finnish people are of Asian origin, Wikipedia states that they also inhabited Scandinavia BC, is there maybe any connection to Finnish people according to this document.

    Origin of Z284 on Balkans might be of Viking descend, but beside Varangian guard I haven't found any sources on matter that Vikings had settled on Balkan peninsula. They seemingly just aided Rus' into fighting Bulgaria and probably set of to another mercenary work. Of course some of the Z284 could be a product of interaction with local women at the time they stayed. Comparing this to the period of few centuries that Goth inhabited Tracia and Dacia is very little. There is just question wether Goths did carry R1a or they did not.
    Hi,
    Finnish people are not originally of Asian origin. You must refer to N1c, which is a very late introduction in the Finnish gene pool, only by raping during the Great Wrath. Original Finns were of R1a and I. There were not any N1c in Finno-Ugric areas in the Iron Age either. Google The genetic prehistory of the Baltic Sea region

    N1c Mongoloids and in the other hand Indo-Europeans R1b and I try to steel cultural heritage of R1a Aryan tribes and their identity. They were all Finnic speaking tribes before the language shift. Even the Ulfila´s Bible is ancient Finnish.

    Varangian comes from the word vara, which is a very ancient Finnish word. I have thought it may be also the root for Frank- Varanki> Frank.

    Visigoths called themselves Vesi, which is also a Finno-Ugric word, meaning water. They and their ancestors were sea fares and also part of the famous Sea People, especially the group called Wesh and probably also Lukka, which meant to lead or leaders.

    Original Finns were Vikings, there are hundreds of Viking swords found in Finland and other things typically their stuff.

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    All right, Carlos, I know it's you. No one else thinks the Finns originally had R1a. R1a-L448 is the Young Scandinavian subclade of Z284 and is predominantly found in the Norway-Sweden-Denmark area as well as the British Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarae View Post
    Hi,
    Finnish people are not originally of Asian origin. You must refer to N1c, which is a very late introduction in the Finnish gene pool, only by raping during the Great Wrath. Original Finns were of R1a and I. There were not any N1c in Finno-Ugric areas in the Iron Age either. Google The genetic prehistory of the Baltic Sea region

    N1c Mongoloids and in the other hand Indo-Europeans R1b and I try to steel cultural heritage of R1a Aryan tribes and their identity. They were all Finnic speaking tribes before the language shift. Even the Ulfila´s Bible is ancient Finnish.

    Varangian comes from the word vara, which is a very ancient Finnish word. I have thought it may be also the root for Frank- Varanki> Frank.

    Visigoths called themselves Vesi, which is also a Finno-Ugric word, meaning water. They and their ancestors were sea fares and also part of the famous Sea People, especially the group called Wesh and probably also Lukka, which meant to lead or leaders.

    Original Finns were Vikings, there are hundreds of Viking swords found in Finland and other things typically their stuff.
    Citations please. Ulfila's Bible is literally in the Germanic Gothic language.

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    Important to remember that only the early Varangian guard were of "pure" Scandinavian descent. I say "pure" because by the time of the Varangian guard, 300-500 years passed since the assimilation of some Proto-Slavs by Germans up to Saxony and Denmark, and Proto-Slavs/Balts up to Southern Sweden including coastal islands shared with Scandos. While Slavs were still maintaining their identity in these areas, many between their arrival and the time of Varangians were already assimilated.

    Also the early Varangian guard were primarily composed of Rus folk. East Slavic & Finnic tribes under the Rurikid dynasty. While some among the ranks were of Scandinavian descent, not all Rus were of Scandinavian descent. Later guard members were composed of Saxon derived stock(or so the accounts hold), from England to Germany(which again already assimilated many Proto-Slavs). I think they would have carried a plethora of I1, R1b, R1a-Z284(including assimilated Z280 and M458 from Germany to Russia) and N.

    I don't think a clear determination can be made for their clades either. You're talking about a military band of mercenaries for hire who had diverse origins from North to North East Europe and who likely have no distinct markers from the groups they came from. The best bet is finding gravesites with their remains that indicate Varangian status. They even incorporated Balts, and Magyar into their ranks. Varangians were early on a mixture of predominantly Scandinavian source; with Slavic and Baltic, Saxon, Magyar Finnic and possibly Vlach input as well(which have both R1a and I2a1b). The last they are mentioned is 1400 in Constantinople. There currently isn't much if any Z284 in the Balkans where they were stationed. I doubt it is all they carried any way.

    " early members of the Varangian Guard mostly hailed from Rus, while by late 11th century they were gradually superseded by the Anglo-Saxons. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the guard was exclusively composed of these two groups. In fact, from the initial times, the Swedish Varangians were often accompanied by their Norwegian brethren who arrived directly from Scandinavia (as opposed to Russia). Similarly, by the 11th century, the Danes also arrived on Byzantine shores, along with the Anglo-Saxons. Moreover, according to contemporary sources (like that of Leo of Ostia) – as referenced by Dr. D’Amato, there are mentions of the ‘Gualani’ people serving in the Varangian Guard. Historians are not sure about their origins, with hypotheses identifying ‘Gualani’ as Welsh peoples and in some cases as the Vlachs (of Eastern Europe).Beyond the melting pot of different nationalities, there is always the question of the actual numbers that were present in the Varangian Guard. During Basil II’s time, the figure was kept at more or less at 6,000 men. But the numbers, in accordance to sources, kept fluctuating after 11th century – though most of them dealt with the Varangians participating in battles, and these warriors were possibly only a part of the entire Varangian Guard in its full capacity. In any case, the figures range from 4,500 men to a paltry 540 men. By late 13th century AD, the numbers were (probably) officially dropped to 3,000 men. By then the Varangian Guard formed one-half of the Taxis (the core army of the Empire of Nicaea), while the other-half was formed by the Vardariotai, who were Magyar (Hungarian) in origin." - https://www.realmofhistory.com/2016/...rangian-guard/

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    Quote Originally Posted by sljoza View Post
    Thank you for sharing those maps and articles. I enjoyed reading them, but I found some things in paper "Central Asia Roots of Scandinavia" to be in contrary to what seems to be widely accepted. With the first link I had shared (R1a migration map) you can see that it came to Scandinavian peninsula 1700 BC while author of this paper suggest that Gothic/Hunnic people brought this haplogroup to Scandinavia in around 5,6th century. What would your opinion on this be?

    Also, knowing that Finnish people are of Asian origin, Wikipedia states that they also inhabited Scandinavia BC, is there maybe any connection to Finnish people according to this document.

    Origin of Z284 on Balkans might be of Viking descend, but beside Varangian guard I haven't found any sources on matter that Vikings had settled on Balkan peninsula. They seemingly just aided Rus' into fighting Bulgaria and probably set of to another mercenary work. Of course some of the Z284 could be a product of interaction with local women at the time they stayed. Comparing this to the period of few centuries that Goth inhabited Tracia and Dacia is very little. There is just question wether Goths did carry R1a or they did not.
    The Goths definitely carried it. Maybe not as a Proto-Germanic marker, but as assimilated Balts/Proto-Slavs into their ranks from migrations east. The current belief is they were not homogeneous by any stretch(not like western germanics). They likely assimilated both Balts and Proto-Slavs. Some researchers go so far as to say the Goths were only a Germanic elite that ruled over the natives forcing their culture upon those they found there(which many assume were mainly Balts and maybe Proto-Slavs. The modern notion of nationalism did not exist back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    All right, Carlos, I know it's you. No one else thinks the Finns originally had R1a. R1a-L448 is the Young Scandinavian subclade of Z284 and is predominantly found in the Norway-Sweden-Denmark area as well as the British Isles.
    All right, I`m not Carlos but he seems to have some sense too:). Honestly, all the genetic research of ancient tombs in Karelia and Estonia (Finland had the same etnocultural population) have shown only R1a and I. There is further information about the clusters in those papers.

    It appears that L448 arose in Scandinavia, and predates its arrival in the British Isles. But do you think the only Rus or Vikings were the ones carrying L448?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Citations please. Ulfila's Bible is literally in the Germanic Gothic language.
    It´s listed as disappeared East Germanic language, but I give you a sample. It´s not disappeared at all, all the contrary.

    Also, the Ring of Pietroassa bears a text "gutani owi hailag" which means gutani door sacred/light-colored. Ovi/owi means a door in Finnish. Hailag is in modern form hailakka, meaning nowadays fair, fair-colored or mostly colorless.

    Some verses (translittered from Gothic to Latin alphabet) in the Ulfila`s Bible:
    1st page: "Qethun than duimma sai aithei theina ja hbrothk just heinai"

    Modern Finnish script: ketun tän tuimma sai äitee heinää ja (hbrothk) just heinää.
    First word Gothic, second Finn.
    qethun- ketun = Ancient Finn. meaning "(animal) skin", "leather", Modern Finn."fox"
    than- tän, tään = this (both ancient and modern language)
    duimma- tuimma (tuimma is a dialect form, officially modern form "tuimme") which means "we supported"
    sai- sai = got (both ancient and modern word)
    aithei- äitee= mother
    theina- heinä = hay
    ja- ja = and

    Thus this verse says " we supported this animal skin, mother got hay and (brother?) just hay.

    The first page of the Ulfila´s Bible seems to be more a letter or a report to someone than a Biblical text.

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    Interesting take on both the Ring of Pietrossa and Ulfila's bible however there are several Germanic cognates visible in these texts, not to mention multiple interpretations of the Ring of Pietrossa's inscription. I guess it's up for debate, though the runic script is Elder Futhark. However the culture, personal names, language and much more of the Goths and related tribes is very much Germanic. I highly doubt that the Visigoths are part of the Sea People.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Interesting take on both the Ring of Pietrossa and Ulfila's bible however there are several Germanic cognates visible in these texts, not to mention multiple interpretations of the Ring of Pietrossa's inscription. I guess it's up for debate, though the runic script is Elder Futhark. However the culture, personal names, language and much more of the Goths and related tribes is very much Germanic. I highly doubt that the Visigoths are part of the Sea People.
    Visigoths called themselves Vesi, which is a very ancient word. Their ancestors or some of them formed a group Wesh, which was one group of the coalition of the Sea People. There were also Ruka, Teresh and other clearly Finno-Ugric names. These people, of course, were different genetically and culturally than Modern "Eastern" Finns.

    What it comes to "interpretations" or generally accepted views and opinions, they are all wrong.

    Even the root word for "Germanic" was kerma, used by some Finnic speaking Aryans/Proto-Germanic group. Julius Caesar was the first person ever used the word Germanic and he referred solely to this relatively small group. Later on, "Germanic" was used about all the people in that area, including the IE-speaking people of R1b and I. Anyway, kerma is an ancient Finno-Ugric word meaning cream. Aryans were "cream" of the nations...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Also the early Varangian guard were primarily composed of Rus folk. East Slavic & Finnic tribes under the Rurikid dynasty. While some among the ranks were of Scandinavian descent, not all Rus were of Scandinavian descent. Later guard members were composed of Saxon derived stock(or so the accounts hold), from England to Germany(which again already assimilated many Proto-Slavs). I think they would have carried a plethora of I1, R1b, R1a-Z284(including assimilated Z280 and M458 from Germany to Russia) and N.
    People don´t know even who Rus were and where its etymology comes. Rus/Ros was an ancient patriarch of the Panu Jami tribe in Kemi (Khemit), actually Panu Jami´s (Biblical "Benjamin") son. His descendants formed the clan Rus. Panu Jami members were known as Jäämi, Jaama, Jami and Jämi in ancient "Finland", they also named Jämtland in "Sweden". Jami Kings of Urartu were often called Russa or similar, named after their Patriarch Rus. Saxons, their brother tribe were Saksi, Asir or Aasa in Skandinavia and Finland. Saxons were also Finno-Aryans before their language shift (google video "Finnish text in the Medieval Saxon Sword"). The whole Viking Age started because Charlemagne had massacred 4500 Saksi/Saxons. Ten years after the Vikings- Rus, Goths and other Aryans were on their way to revenge. History knows it as "The Viking Age". They behaved much more peacefully in east, logically.

    As I stated previously in some post, N was totally absent in Rus societies in Russia before the Mongol invasion. Mongols had subdued N1c -nations, joining them to their army. I don´t understand how even these things are unknown or ignored by historians and others speculating with Aryan tribes´history, culture and identity. N1c is presented only in the areas invaded by Mongols and later by Tsars` Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarae View Post
    Visigoths called themselves Vesi, which is a very ancient word. Their ancestors or some of them formed a group Wesh, which was one group of the coalition of the Sea People. There were also Ruka, Teresh and other clearly Finno-Ugric names. These people, of course, were different genetically and culturally than Modern "Eastern" Finns.

    What it comes to "interpretations" or generally accepted views and opinions, they are all wrong.

    Even the root word for "Germanic" was kerma, used by some Finnic speaking Aryans/Proto-Germanic group. Julius Caesar was the first person ever used the word Germanic and he referred solely to this relatively small group. Later on, "Germanic" was used about all the people in that area, including the IE-speaking people of R1b and I. Anyway, kerma is an ancient Finno-Ugric word meaning cream. Aryans were "cream" of the nations...?

    The etymology of Visigoth, at least the Vesi part has been suggested (by Mallory & Adams) to trace back to Proto-Germanic *wesuz from Proto-IE *h₁wésus, which would be cognate of Proto-Celtic *wesus, Italic goddess Vesuna and Sanskrit vasu, all having some rough meaning of "good" or "excellent". The Visigoths most certainly were not one of the Sea People, the Sea People in all likelihood are an Eastern Mediterranean people (Philistines show Aegean ancestry), at this time the Visigoths, or any Goths were not known.

    The etymology for "Germanic" is not totally agreed upon, however it is likely it comes from a Gaulish term, which considering the context of Julius Caesar's writings that would make far more sense than the etymological route you have given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarae View Post
    People don´t know even who Rus were and where its etymology comes. Rus/Ros was an ancient patriarch of the Panu Jami tribe in Kemi (Khemit), actually Panu Jami´s (Biblical "Benjamin") son. His descendants formed the clan Rus. Panu Jami members were known as Jäämi, Jaama, Jami and Jämi in ancient "Finland", they also named Jämtland in "Sweden". Jami Kings of Urartu were often called Russa or similar, named after their Patriarch Rus. Saxons, their brother tribe were Saksi, Asir or Aasa in Skandinavia and Finland. Saxons were also Finno-Aryans before their language shift (google video "Finnish text in the Medieval Saxon Sword"). The whole Viking Age started because Charlemagne had massacred 4500 Saksi/Saxons. Ten years after the Vikings- Rus, Goths and other Aryans were on their way to revenge. History knows it as "The Viking Age". They behaved much more peacefully in east, logically.

    As I stated previously in some post, N was totally absent in Rus societies in Russia before the Mongol invasion. Mongols had subdued N1c -nations, joining them to their army. I don´t understand how even these things are unknown or ignored by historians and others speculating with Aryan tribes´history, culture and identity. N1c is presented only in the areas invaded by Mongols and later by Tsars` Russia.
    What is your point? Do you have any sources for any of this?
    Last edited by spruithean; 15-07-19 at 23:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The etymology of Visigoth, at least the Vesi part has been suggested (by Mallory & Adams) to trace back to Proto-Germanic *wesuz from Proto-IE *h₁wésus, which would be cognate of Proto-Celtic *wesus, Italic goddess Vesuna and Sanskrit vasu, all having some rough meaning of "good" or "excellent". The Visigoths most certainly were not one of the Sea People, the Sea People in all likelihood are an Eastern Mediterranean people (Philistines show Aegean ancestry), at this time the Visigoths, or any Goths were not known.

    The etymology for "Germanic" is not totally agreed upon, however it is likely it comes from a Gaulish term, which considering the context of Julius Caesar's writings that would make far more sense than the etymological route you have given.
    *wesuz is a pseudo word, without any real base and created only to build a *pseudo history. You just try to ignore the real Gothic word Vesi to replace it with some *pseudo. This is very typical pseudo science and pseudo linguist Finnish N1c -Mongoloids like Jaakko Häkkinen are doing when they try to "prove" them (N1c) as original Finnish and Goths etc. as original "IE-speaking". However, N1c- types are genetic isolates in Finland and in Europe and they just don´t fit in to the picture in anyway.

    You don´t seem to understand that Goths, or originally Katti, Chatti, Gatha(some clan or trait)Vesi etc. was a very ancient tribe, which developed in Khemi aka Ancient Egypt as did all the Aryan tribes Vanais, Rus etc. They just didn´t pop up on Rome or Viking boats from nowhere, but had already history of c. 2700 before Visigoths become known in Central and South Europe. Visi is just a Latin form of Vesi.

    And yes, one group of the Sea People originated from Greece, being subdued by Danai (Vanai, Vanir). But most of the Sea People Lukka, Teres, Ruka, Wesh (Vesi), Danai etc. were Finno- Aryan people. Is it that hard?

    There was a clear difference between IE-speaking hunter-gatherers (R1b and I) and R1a- farmers/ metal cultural, developers of sciences Aryans in antiquity. They just didn´t mix with IE-hunter-gatherers, or very seldom, hardly ever in Europe. Every anthropologist can tell you this. Nowadays there is a real problem because these R1b, I and lately also N1c present themselves as "especialists" with Aryans´history and culture. Please, they´re just ignorant crap. Really.

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    I don't follow anything you're saying, do you have any citations for your claims?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarae View Post
    Visigoths called themselves Vesi, which is a very ancient word. Their ancestors or some of them formed a group Wesh, which was one group of the coalition of the Sea People. There were also Ruka, Teresh and other clearly Finno-Ugric names. These people, of course, were different genetically and culturally than Modern "Eastern" Finns.
    What it comes to "interpretations" or generally accepted views and opinions, they are all wrong.
    Even the root word for "Germanic" was kerma, used by some Finnic speaking Aryans/Proto-Germanic group. Julius Caesar was the first person ever used the word Germanic and he referred solely to this relatively small group. Later on, "Germanic" was used about all the people in that area, including the IE-speaking people of R1b and I. Anyway, kerma is an ancient Finno-Ugric word meaning cream. Aryans were "cream" of the nations...?
    The only thing we are unsure of about the goths is their homeland....south sweden or coastal poland......the visigoths are the more "pure" goths mixing with suebi ......the ostrogoths mixed with baltic peoples initially, that is the venedi and aestii people and then marched to the black sea and stayed there for a few hundreds years, absorbing/mixing with bastanae and sarmatians.
    Over time , the visi and ostro goths split further apart from each other in all facits of society and genetics
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The only thing we are unsure of about the goths is their homeland....south sweden or coastal poland......the visigoths are the more "pure" goths mixing with suebi ......the ostrogoths mixed with baltic peoples initially, that is the venedi and aestii people and then marched to the black sea and stayed there for a few hundreds years, absorbing/mixing with bastanae and sarmatians.
    Over time , the visi and ostro goths split further apart from each other in all facits of society and genetics
    If the Gothic mtDNA study is anything to go by, males in the Wielbark complex with Gothic-like burials had shared ancestry with Jutland Iron Age samples (not to mention a sample of Y-Hg I-Z63 found in Wielbark), so this could indicate, in part, an origin in Southern Scandinavia (Jutland or Southern Sweden). The females in the study were of local Neolithic origin. It is fairly well attested that the Goths were Germanic and that their language was also Germanic, however they (at least the Ostrogoths) picked up a degree of Steppe/Asian ancestry from their proximity and relationship with Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, etc. The same can be said for the Gepids (who were probably a branch of the Goths in some respect), their stay in SE Europe and their relationship with Huns and Avars shows a degree of mixing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I don't follow anything you're saying, do you have any citations for your claims?
    wrong post

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